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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Scenario Design >> Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data

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Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/3/2005 4:58:27 PM

Don Bowen

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Several Forum members are combining their efforts to produce a new scenario for War In the Pacific. This will be a full war scenario, based on the standard Scenario 15, with a possible extension into 1946. Attention will be paid to historical accuracy and detail. It has previously been referred to as �Ron Saueracker/Tankerace/Don Bowen's Mod�.

The scenario will be based on two �released� modified scenarios (Lemurs, Andrew Brown) and several others that have been completed for earlier WITP versions. It will feature a new map (Andrew Brown), tons of new artwork, many new ship classes and aircraft types, expanded Orders of Battle, and adjusted land unit Table of Organizations.
We hope to merge the best of everyone�s work to produce an accurate and playable scenario.

A number of threads are being opened to group comments in different areas (devices, aircraft, artwork, etc). Please post in the most applicable one.

Please post comments concerning Allied and Japanese Ship Classes in this thread.

Post #: 1

Calculating fuel for coal fired ships - 1/5/2005 5:34:41 AM

Don Bowen

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Does anyone have any reasonable idea how to calculate "fuel" for a coal-fired ship. I'm speaking of the "Fuel" parameter in the class section - usually fuel oil. I have the bunker capacities of the coal burners but no good idea of how to equate to oil. One ton of coal to one "unit" of fuel, 2 to 1, 4 to 1 ????

Is it even important??

Don

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Post #: 2

RE: Calculating fuel for coal fired ships - 1/5/2005 5:47:38 AM

2ndACR

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I would say 2 or 3-1. Coal is not the most effiecent fuel source.

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Post #: 3

RE: Calculating fuel for coal fired ships - 1/5/2005 6:08:46 AM

Tankerace

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For War Plan Orange, I have been using (depend upon the tyupe of ship) a 1.5 or 2 ratio, i.e if a ship has 500 tons of coal, then its in game fuel is 750 to 1000.

Also, I sometimes make their range a little shorter, to accomidate that coal burner rarely permormed up to specs.

_____________________________

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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Post #: 4

RE: Calculating fuel for coal fired ships - 1/5/2005 6:10:51 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Does anyone have any reasonable idea how to calculate "fuel" for a coal-fired ship. I'm speaking of the "Fuel" parameter in the class section - usually fuel oil. I have the bunker capacities of the coal burners but no good idea of how to equate to oil. One ton of coal to one "unit" of fuel, 2 to 1, 4 to 1 ????

Is it even important??

Don

Given the rather rough calculation here given the variances in coal etc,what about simply comparing the ranges of the various USN BBs which converted from coal to oil.

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Post #: 5

RE: Calculating fuel for coal fired ships - 1/5/2005 6:13:46 AM

Tankerace

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In essence, the New Yorks and Arkansas are EXTREMELY short legged.

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Post #: 6

Japanese World War I/1920s Merchant Ships - 1/5/2005 6:57:45 PM

Don Bowen

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Here is the first group of Japanese Merchant ships. Total of eight classes that represent a large number of ships built prior to 1930 and were still in service in World War II. Many of these ships are in the base scenario and will be re-classed. Others are new and will be added with priority going to biggest and most interesting.

Most of these ships were coal fired (notice the tall stacks for improved updraft). They will give the Japanese player a large number of choices for cargo carrying - lots of capacity, speed, endurance variations (and many more in the next group). There were large numbers of the smaller classes but we will only include a small sample.

I have the "side" icons done for all of these but have not yet done the "shil". EVERYTHING is open for discussion and comment.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7

Japanese 1930s Merchants - 1/5/2005 7:18:24 PM

Don Bowen

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These are the Japanese Merchant ships build during the 1930s - the ones that were modern as of the start of the war. Some excellent ships here - note the high speeds. The very high endurance of some of these ships is correct - they were diesels.

Bangkok Maru and a few similiar ships were AMCs with minelaying capability and will be included as MLs - others as freighters using the same icon.

In addition, while working up this set of data I noticed that many of the large merchant ships converted into Seaplane Carriers were also diesel with very large endurance figures.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 8

Japanese Transports - 1/5/2005 10:43:16 PM

Don Bowen

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Here are some assorted Japanese transports. This group does not include the large ex-liners (they're next) but has some very interesting ships. Very little data on endurance and did some estimating (all marked with * are estimates) - may need more work here. Also have no idea how to figure out capacity - something for later. There are also some obvious scaling problems with these icons (whoops) - I'll have to got back and fix them later or maybe a little after later.

Some of these ships will be very useful - good sized fast transports and small, medium ranged ones with decent speed.

I'd appreciate any information anyone might have on capacity of these ships!

See fixed display below

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 1/5/2005 10:32:58 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Japanese Transports - 1/6/2005 3:32:18 AM

Herrbear

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Great job.

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Post #: 10

RE: Japanese Transports - 1/6/2005 4:22:18 AM

Don Bowen

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OK - here they are with the scaling problems fixed. Nothing else to do on a cold, rainy night.

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Post #: 11

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/6/2005 6:18:17 AM

bstarr

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The early war US merchant fleet is too well armed. Due to neutrality laws at the beginning of the war only 14 US merchant vessels and 41 US owned but flying another flag (usually Panama) were armed. Needless to say, most (if not all) of these would be in the Atlantic. The ships were armed as quickly as possible, with close to half recieving arms by mid-42, but, there again, most of these were in the Atlantic. Also, many of the ships which were armed weren't up to WITP standards.

Of course, this isn't a huge issue, but seeing how much work is going into the Japanese Merchant fleet I figured I'd toss it y'alls way. I don't have any hard data on what the armaments were, but I do have a month by month listing of how many US merchant ships were armed.
bs

ps. My grandfather was a merchant marine and he once told me the about when his ship was finally fitted out. The navy came on board, installed one .50 cal on a walkway near the bridge, then left without giving anyone instructions on how to use it. Two weeks later Papa was in a life raft. This was the 1st of two he had sunk out from under him.

< Message edited by bstarr -- 1/6/2005 4:19:30 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/6/2005 6:35:39 AM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstarr

The early war US merchant fleet is too well armed. Due to neutrality laws at the beginning of the war only 14 US merchant vessels and 41 US owned but flying another flag (usually Panama) were armed. Needless to say, most (if not all) of these would be in the Atlantic. The ships were armed as quickly as possible, with close to half recieving arms by mid-42, but, there again, most of these were in the Atlantic. Also, many of the ships which were armed weren't up to WITP standards.

Of course, this isn't a huge issue, but seeing how much work is going into the Japanese Merchant fleet I figured I'd toss it y'alls way. I don't have any hard data on what the armaments were, but I do have a month by month listing of how many US merchant ships were armed.
bs

ps. My grandfather was a merchant marine and he once told me the about when his ship was finally fitted out. The navy came on board, installed one .50 cal on a walkway near the bridge, then left without giving anyone instructions on how to use it. Two weeks later Papa was in a life raft. This was the 1st of two he had sunk out from under him.

I have little information on the armament of merchant ships (of any nation) and would appreciate anything that you might have. Right now just planning on an original "lightly" armed version and a mid-war AA upgrade.

Don

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Post #: 13

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/6/2005 6:58:16 AM

Tankerace

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As I understood it (from reading, not second hand experience like bstarr), Merchies were armed with whatever weapons were available at the time. So, if a Merchie was in a West Coast dockyard, or was being refitted, it would have say 3"/50 Mk 10, or 4"/50 Mk 9s. However, if It was at a quick stopover, it would have a 20mm or worse case a couple of ma-deuces bolted on.

So, transfer to a battleship! Course, I understand your pain though, my grandads ship (Mississippi) fought off Okinawa with the same style 5"/25 Mk 10s used at Pearl Harbor. If director controlled 5"/38s couldn't stop kamikazes, what the Hell is a 5"/25 supposed to do.

On that same note, I want to share this picture of the Mississippi with you.

During WW2, my grandfather was stationed in Turret II (B Turret). As he told me also, during an air attack he commanded a 20mm Gun Mount. I January 1945, off Lingayen, the Mississippi was hit by a kamikaze, which hit where the steel is bent above. My grandfather told me about that once, and he told me that he was 5 feet away when it hit, so my guess (assuming his story is correct), the 20mm mount I circled, or the one just below it was his. Freaky stuff.

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Post #: 14

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/6/2005 6:27:29 PM

bstarr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

As I understood it (from reading, not second hand experience like bstarr), Merchies were armed with whatever weapons were available at the time. So, if a Merchie was in a West Coast dockyard, or was being refitted, it would have say 3"/50 Mk 10, or 4"/50 Mk 9s. However, if It was at a quick stopover, it would have a 20mm or worse case a couple of ma-deuces bolted on.

So, transfer to a battleship! Course, I understand your pain though, my grandads ship (Mississippi) fought off Okinawa with the same style 5"/25 Mk 10s used at Pearl Harbor. If director controlled 5"/38s couldn't stop kamikazes, what the Hell is a 5"/25 supposed to do.

On that same note, I want to share this picture of the Mississippi with you.

During WW2, my grandfather was stationed in Turret II (B Turret). As he told me also, during an air attack he commanded a 20mm Gun Mount. I January 1945, off Lingayen, the Mississippi was hit by a kamikaze, which hit where the steel is bent above. My grandfather told me about that once, and he told me that he was 5 feet away when it hit, so my guess (assuming his story is correct), the 20mm mount I circled, or the one just below it was his. Freaky stuff.

VERY interesting. I've always wanted to research my grandfather's wartime career, but there's not much material on Merch Marines. Hell, I don't even know the names of the three ships he was on. According to my father one was sunk inside the Suez Canal, so I would think that one would be easy to find (it certainly couldn't have been a common occurance). But I've been unable to find anything.

Funny note - since they were unarmed, Papa said the crew used to wave at the enemy planes as they passed over after releasing their bombs (by the way, he served in the Med). Kinda along the lines of, "If we act friendly they won't come back and strafe us." The funny thing was, the Germans always waved back, or at least wagged their wings. And they never once strafed (not that he saw; historically it did happen occassionally).

< Message edited by bstarr -- 1/6/2005 4:28:18 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/6/2005 6:33:00 PM

bstarr

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I'm at work; sources are at the house. I only have a month to month total of the ships that were armed by the navy. It's a start though.

Anyway, I've been itching to research the Merchant Marines. Kind of a family interst thing. I'll see if I can find anything else. It might be worth the effort to create several merchs that upgrade at different times, kinda like what the current scenario 15 does with US APDs.

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Post #: 16

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/6/2005 11:37:18 PM

bstarr

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a Liberty ship weighed in at a little over 10000 tons and could carry about 7200 tons. So I reckon dividing the ship's tonnage by 70-75% should give a rough estimate of their capacity. Does that sound right?

I found a little more info, but I'm heading over to a friend's house for several beers. so the rest of my afternoon will be like this:

and then like this

and finally

ps. One thing I did find was that WITP has Liberty ships nailed perfectly, armament and all.

try this site:
http://www.wwiitechpubs.info/dock/nv-usa/nv-usa-ss-liberty-ship/nv-usa-ss-liberty-ship-ftr.html

< Message edited by bstarr -- 1/6/2005 9:37:27 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/7/2005 12:54:26 AM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstarr

a Liberty ship weighed in at a little over 10000 tons and could carry about 7200 tons. So I reckon dividing the ship's tonnage by 70-75% should give a rough estimate of their capacity. Does that sound right?

A merchant ship is rated based on two tonage figures:

Deadweight tons is the total weight of the ship with all cargo, stores, fuel, and crew. The 10,000 figure for a Liberty would be Deadweight tons (DWT).

Gross Registered Tons is a measurement of the enclosed spaces within a ship that are available for cargo, passengers, crew, stores, and fuel. Is it a space measurement, not weight, and equates to 100 cubic feet. I believe it is based on some archaic shipping container of that size and called a "tun". 7200 GRT is about right for a Liberty (USMC Type EC-2).

When assigning WITP capacity to I am currently using 90% of GRT. May have to re-think this as Matrix appears to have used straight GRT for the Libertys.

quote:

ps. One thing I did find was that WITP has Liberty ships nailed perfectly, armament and all.

Oh Yes - Matrix did an excellent job on research. Only the occasional small error is found from time to time. For me, however, they over-generalized merchant and naval auxiliary classes. The also left out whole groups of ships, possibly for lack of time or research sources. We're adjusting that!

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 1/6/2005 11:03:26 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/8/2005 1:09:05 AM

bstarr

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I did some research, but came up with a blank on hard data for early war US merchant ship�s armament. All I found out was that Liberty ships and other allies (already at war) are correct as far as armament is concerned. I also found classes of late are US Navy merchant and transport ships, APA Haskell Class, APA Gilliam Class, APA Bayfield Class, AKA Tolland Class, AKA Artemis Class, AKA Andromeda Class, AK Alamosa Class. I�ve got a full list of which ships belong in these classes, but I need to research a little more to see how they would translate into WITP. I also have an idea for solving the Merchant armament problem using more generic AKs, APs, etc (ex. instead of 2 types of generic merchants, there would be at least 5 or 6 and probably some that evolve into the same ship at different times, like the US APDs)

Anyway, here�s the chart I promised. I don�t know if it really helps other than to point out the fact that US Merchant ships weren�t armed at the beginning of the war, and that this armament was very gradual.

One more thing: I wonder if they fixed the glitch that prevented an undamaged ship from repairing a damaged component - you know, the Colorado radar issue. This would help a lot since the initial ship could simply have all its guns damaged.)

* * *

Merchant Ships fitted out by the U.S. navy in early WWII

As of* / U.S. Flag / U.S. Owned, foreign flag
Dec 1941 / 14 / (41)**
Jan 1942 / 71(25) / (41)
Feb / 176(44) / 8 (54)
March / 323 (74) / 43 (56)
April / 499 / 74
May / 722 / 94
June / 924 / 140
July / 1080 / 159
August / 1236 / 175
Sept / 1328 / 185
Oct / 1436 / 192
Nov / 1518 / 205
Dec / 1607 / 206
Jan 1943 / 1697 / 221
Feb / 1804 / 225
March / 1933 / 227

*The chart actually read "as of" then it had the final day of that month. So "as of Dec 1941" means they were were fitted out in December 1941, not before Dec 1941.

**Numbers in parenthesis are ships which received guns, but no naval gun crews. The merchant marines were expected to man these guns themselves.

Chart from appendices of
�History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, Volume I�, Samuel Morison

As you can see they are fitting out about 100 to 150 ships per month (it�s a cumulative chart). Morison states that with the outbreak of the war (and therefore the relaxing of the neutrality laws prohibiting arming merchant ships) several ship owners also acquired smaller AA guns in the form of .30s and .50s. These were installed before the navy got around to fitting out the ship.

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Post #: 19

Maneuver and durability settings - 1/8/2005 3:06:40 AM

Don Bowen

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Does anyone have any advice on the Maneuver and Durability values for merchant ship classes??

These are the values from the base scenario (15):

.........Maneuver - Durability
Large AP......50 - 25
Medium AP...60 - 20
Small AP.......70 - 10

Large AK......60 - 20
Small AK......70 - 10

I am creating some 3 dozen classes that span this range and extent above and below (from very large to very small). Other than some kind of proration, does anyone know of any formula (or min and max limits)??

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Post #: 20

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/9/2005 10:11:54 AM

CobraAus

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2 questions

1 are any ships classes set in concrete yet if so is possible to get a list of them and what ships they relate to.
2 as you are doing a lot of the art work for the ships - had any thoughts to adding camouflage to some of them as historicaly a lot were

Cobra Aus

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Post #: 21

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/9/2005 10:26:42 AM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

2 questions

1 are any ships classes set in concrete yet if so is possible to get a list of them and what ships they relate to.
2 as you are doing a lot of the art work for the ships - had any thoughts to adding camouflage to some of them as historicaly a lot were

Cobra Aus

Justin has added various camo measures to the Allied ships already...very nice!

Basically assume all the classes you can think of are in. It's easier that way.

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Post #: 22

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/9/2005 11:56:21 AM

CobraAus

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quote:

Justin has added various camo measures to the Allied ships already...very nice!

If Justins done them I'am sure they will be great

Cobra Aus

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Post #: 23

RE: Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data - 1/10/2005 12:21:26 PM

Tankerace

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Thanks guys.

Actually though, all I have done is the pre war Measure 1 for some battleships, and late war Measure 22 for all ships in there final fits. If I had photoshop I would do dazzle patterns.... Hell I might try my hand at them anyway.

If I did do a dazzle pattern, it would probably be Measure 32 or 32a, those were most common.

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Post #: 24

Takao Class Cruisers - 1/10/2005 4:59:08 PM

Don Bowen

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Based on data provided by forum member marc, I will be reworking the Takao class into two subclasses - one for Takao and Atago and a second for Maya and Chokai.

The first two will follow a refit patern fairly similar to the one for the Takao class in base scenario 15 (but with reduced initial war values).

The second pair will follow an upgrade path that points to Maya's replacement of "C" turret with two twin 5in (during damage repairs). Chokai herself was historically never so modified but I'll include her with Maya. She could have been so modified and a 4-ship class is worth only so many class slots.

marc provided some sample artwork for Maya from a 1/700 model. It shows her with "C" turret removed. I have to quit messing with icons and get moving so I'm posting the artwork here in the hopes that someone might have time to create an icon from it. If not, the standard Takao will probably do fine.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 25

RE: Takao Class Cruisers - 1/10/2005 5:04:36 PM

Tankerace

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You want I should do the art boss?

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Post #: 26

Japanese Class updates begin TODAY - 1/10/2005 5:08:02 PM

Don Bowen

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I am beginning the actual update of Japanese ship classes today. Once done, I'll be reluctant to go back and redo things so please get any suggested changes in right away.

A review of Japanese tankers shows that they all pretty much look alike. I've decided against creating any additional icons for them. However, I do have a number of tanker line drawings if anyone wants to do some icons. Needs to be done right away so I can determine what new classes to add. Otherwise, I believe the two scenario 15 types (small, large) will do. A very-large is also to be added, based on the 140,000 capacity ex-whale factory ships and a copy of the existing "tanker" classes will be made as oilers (based on data from Lemurs!).

I will also be reviewing the Japanese destroyer upgrade paths based on a long and bold post by subchaser.

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Post #: 27

RE: Takao Class Cruisers - 1/10/2005 5:22:14 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

You want I should do the art boss?

I think many of the CAs and BBs could use work. Ise and Hyuga look like trucks or something.

The Atagos and Nachis look like they have stomach gas.

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: Takao Class Cruisers - 1/10/2005 5:26:28 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

You want I should do the art boss?

I'd love it - you're art is the best. But I thought you were up to your art in War Plan Orange???

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Post #: 29

RE: Takao Class Cruisers - 1/10/2005 5:27:20 PM

Tankerace

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LOL, ok ok.... gimme a day or two though. I have been busy doing the Japanese a/c for WPO.... just finished 4 variants of the Mitsubish 1MF series fighter, the Sopwith Pup, the 2MR (C1M) recce plane, and the B1M torpedo bomber. I'll get to the Jap buckets today and tomorrow.

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