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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: sigh

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RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 8:06:04 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Just so that you know, Mogami posted his email addy way up top. Around the 5 th post.

Did you want to have a looksee too?

Up to you. I was just trying to help. I never have a problem getting my CV's to launch attacks. Send away.

God I'd kill for that :)...what's your email?

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Post #: 31

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 8:34:05 PM

2ndACR

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Sorry, had to go slap a few liberals around.

acproincDavidMitchell@msn.com

Also on the 1st page of this thread 2nd post.

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Post #: 32

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 8:48:40 PM

Mr.Frag

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Yep, you got bit by fuel.

I've trimmed the screenshot down to just the important stuff.

You will notice after the turn you sent is processed, that 3 of your CV's have 250 ops points spent.

This is from milking fuel ... That pretty much is a sure way to loose the first strike. Since the attack happens the following turn, safe bet you were in even worse shape.

*Anytime* and I mean *anytime* you see ops points showing up on your CV's, it is time to run like hell for a fuel source. Looks like you overstayed your welcome by exactly one turn in this case.

The end result is that your cap flies, but your strikes do not.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 33

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:29:17 PM

rroberson

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<sigh> So even though Nagumo had 4 American carriers bearing down on him, he stopped to gas up his destroyers while all his bombers were sitting on the deck awaiting the American bombs....

sigh another two months of my life down the tubes :)

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Post #: 34

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:33:54 PM

Mr.Frag

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I'm sure if you ask Xargun nicely, he'll go back in time a turn ...

Obviously you would have run away had you understood exactly how this worked.

It's one thing to spank someone in a game, it's another thing to get them due to a misunderstood rule. I'm sure he doesn't want to win like that...

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Post #: 35

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:40:58 PM

rroberson

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Not xargun...reiyc

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Post #: 36

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:42:12 PM

marky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

<sigh> So even though Nagumo had 4 American carriers bearing down on him, he stopped to gas up his destroyers while all his bombers were sitting on the deck awaiting the American bombs....

sigh another two months of my life down the tubes :)

similar to wat happened at midway in a sense

he had an unknown US carrier force out there, but he still didnt launch a strike RIGHT after he spotted us

if he had, midway mightve been different...

but it wasnt and we kikked his @$$

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Post #: 37

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:47:25 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I'm sure if you ask Xargun nicely, he'll go back in time a turn ...

Obviously you would have run away had you understood exactly how this worked.

It's one thing to spank someone in a game, it's another thing to get them due to a misunderstood rule. I'm sure he doesn't want to win like that...

Well that is sorta what the point of my rant was last nite...I'm looking for help on these air rules...I clearly dont understand all the formulas that go into them and more often then not they have cost me battles that I should of (at least i think) at least been competitive. The way it looks right now is I roll my ships out there under the worst circumstances and they dont ever have a chance of launching their birds at the enemy.

To me, the fact that I need a calculator to decide whether or not my planes will strike is disheartening to say the least....is there any easier way to have the formula explained to me (small words

) so for the next game I send my boys into harms way IM not chaining their planes to the deck prior to the battle?

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Post #: 38

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:48:51 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marky

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

<sigh> So even though Nagumo had 4 American carriers bearing down on him, he stopped to gas up his destroyers while all his bombers were sitting on the deck awaiting the American bombs....

sigh another two months of my life down the tubes :)

similar to wat happened at midway in a sense

he had an unknown US carrier force out there, but he still didnt launch a strike RIGHT after he spotted us

if he had, midway mightve been different...

but it wasnt and we kikked his @$$

LOL believe me, last nite when I was watching it and narrating it to my wife, that was her first comment...I have indoctrinated her well.

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Post #: 39

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:53:09 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

is there any easier way to have the formula explained to me (small words ) so for the next game I send my boys into harms way IM not chaining their planes to the deck prior to the battle?

Keep your screen in the green--endurance that is--and keep a CA or two with the CVs, just in case the DDs do have to take a drink. Tone class has very high endurance.

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Post #: 40

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 9:58:02 PM

mlees

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Keep an eye on:
1)TF Endurance remaining.
2)Air sorties level.
3)Pilot fatigue & morale.
4)Weather.
5)Expected range to target(escorts don't seem to perform as well at extended range).
6)CV sys damage (reduces ship speed, making it harder to get in or out of trouble).
7)The enemy.

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Post #: 41

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:01:06 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

is there any easier way to have the formula explained to me (small words ) so for the next game I send my boys into harms way IM not chaining their planes to the deck prior to the battle?

Keep your screen in the green--endurance that is--and keep a CA or two with the CVs, just in case the DDs do have to take a drink. Tone class has very high endurance.

I usually have cruisers in attendence with carriers....Its part of what I dont get...I had Akagi out raising hell with his transport groups (unescorted) south of Pearl and I get launch after launch without a problem and I know she is struggling with fuel at some points (I did have a tanker group following her around) yet I never saw a loss of intensity regarding Akagi's air attacks.....

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Post #: 42

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:03:26 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Keep an eye on:
1)TF Endurance remaining.
2)Air sorties level.
3)Pilot fatigue & morale.
4)Weather.
5)Expected range to target(escorts don't seem to perform as well at extended range).
6)CV sys damage (reduces ship speed, making it harder to get in or out of trouble).
7)The enemy.

So what is optimal for 1,2, 3 and 5? 80 percent 50 percent?

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Post #: 43

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:07:28 PM

Mr.Frag

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It's the DD's that generally do you in on this stuff, they are always short on fuel and running around at full speed eats it like nothing else. Helpfull to keep a couple of high endurance CA's in the group to feed them instead of the CV's

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Post #: 44

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:12:43 PM

tsimmonds

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Escorts running low on fuel won't have to refuel every turn. They will only have to refuel on the one turn that you really really really need for them not to.

Visit your oilers every chance you get. I tend to stick very close to mine. You never know when you will need full tanks. IMHO the tendency in the game is to try to eke out too much too fast too often. And the thing is, usually it works. Usually. But all that does is create a false sense of security. One can get used to running on too fine a margin; too often we are able to see that we have cut things too close only when our enemy is kind enough to point it out for us....

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 1/21/2005 3:14:34 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:25:51 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Escorts running low on fuel won't have to refuel every turn. They will only have to refuel on the one turn that you really really really need for them not to.

Visit your oilers every chance you get. I tend to stick very close to mine. You never know when you will need full tanks. IMHO the tendency in the game is to try to eke out too much too fast too often. And the thing is, usually it works. Usually. But all that does is create a false sense of security. One can get used to running on too fine a margin; too often we are able to see that we have cut things too close only when our enemy is kind enough to point it out for us....

Yeah that is exactly what happened here then. I was use to getting decent strikes on less then half a fuel tank....(the exception was an engagement off of Karachi which I just chalked up to bad timing)....guess its a lesson learned. I will master this oh yes.

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Post #: 46

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:31:46 PM

Mr.Frag

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Rob, you will not normally notice this causing you problems as the lost operational points don't stop you from flying your normal missions as they are not time sensitive ... where it comes and bites you is in a CV vs CV duel as it is all about he who puts bombs on target first.

Against transports and land targets, you'll probably not even notice the difference as the strikes can fly late and *still* have a deck to fly from until you are really scraping the bottom of the fuel tanks.

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Post #: 47

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:47:58 PM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Rob, you will not normally notice this causing you problems as the lost operational points don't stop you from flying your normal missions as they are not time sensitive ... where it comes and bites you is in a CV vs CV duel as it is all about he who puts bombs on target first.

Against transports and land targets, you'll probably not even notice the difference as the strikes can fly late and *still* have a deck to fly from until you are really scraping the bottom of the fuel tanks.

Makes sense....another lesson learned...

I am pouring over the rules again right now...so no doubt my battered ego will be ready for its next pasting soon enough.

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Post #: 48

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 10:54:27 PM

2ndACR

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What is funny, is that I have never read the rule book.

That just confuses me. I go by trial and error. Watch out for Reiryc, he is sneaky.

When using my CV's, I always completely top them off before going on a little tour. I start heading back when they are at 1/2 capacity on fuel. When I know enemy CV's are in the area, I set the TF to do not refuel. At least I will get a full strike or 2 off if he attacks me.

That is the key. DO NOT REFUEL.

I always set this if I expect the enemy CV's to come out and play. I will have 2-3 AO's and a couple DD's about 10 hexes from my CV force at all times. I keep them way back when possible, but no more than a speed run away.

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RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 11:19:57 PM

ChezDaJez

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I would agree FOW is nice but when a group refuses to fly you should at least be able to ask them why.

That way you can keelhaul the aircrew until their morale improves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the morale check is used to see if a unit will perform their mission. I think it more accurately reflects the ability to perform the mission effectively. In other words, how hard do they try? I think the planes are actually launching but the unit only makes a half hearted attempt to locate the enemy and if they do they tend to abort at the first sign of trouble and get out of there.

To actually refuse to fly a mission is mutiny and would have been dealt with rather harshly.

As Mogami said, there are many reasons why a group doesn't fly that has nothing to do with morale.

Chez

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Post #: 50

RE: sigh - 1/21/2005 11:35:01 PM

Mr.Frag

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In this case, it's not a "they didn't want to fly", it's a the CV was busy doing other stuff and by the time it turned into the wind to launch, it had some nasty holes in the deck

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Post #: 51

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 12:01:43 AM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

In this case, it's not a "they didn't want to fly", it's a the CV was busy doing other stuff and by the time it turned into the wind to launch, it had some nasty holes in the deck

Yes busy doing other things....that tends to be my CV motto....:(...bah once more into the breach I suppose.

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Post #: 52

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 12:04:01 AM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

What is funny, is that I have never read the rule book.

That just confuses me. I go by trial and error. Watch out for Reiryc, he is sneaky.

When using my CV's, I always completely top them off before going on a little tour. I start heading back when they are at 1/2 capacity on fuel. When I know enemy CV's are in the area, I set the TF to do not refuel. At least I will get a full strike or 2 off if he attacks me.

That is the key. DO NOT REFUEL.

I always set this if I expect the enemy CV's to come out and play. I will have 2-3 AO's and a couple DD's about 10 hexes from my CV force at all times. I keep them way back when possible, but no more than a speed run away.

I had not thought to do that...but it is something I will do when i am expecting battle...

Havent read the rules eh...egads man and yet you get the game better then me...says a great deal bout my intellect :).

Oh reiyc plays an amazing game....very humbling to lose to him....he actually had the Chinese sending my Japanese army realing backwards...caused a huge disruption in our entire game as i devoted more and more assets to the China problem...I was well on my way to losing this one by the end of 42 because I was way way behind schedule due to China.

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Post #: 53

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 12:56:08 AM

2ndACR

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I cut my teeth playing GG's games. I like to think I have a pretty good idea of how he does things.

I did play UV alot, but never PBEM. So alot of these things are carry overs.

Yep, I had the same thing happen to me in China versus PanzerJaeger Hortland. Once that happens to you as the Japanese, you cringe when the "you can not stop Japan in China" cries start up.

Sorry, been there and had it done to me.

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Post #: 54

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 1:23:24 AM

rroberson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I cut my teeth playing GG's games. I like to think I have a pretty good idea of how he does things.

I did play UV alot, but never PBEM. So alot of these things are carry overs.

Yep, I had the same thing happen to me in China versus PanzerJaeger Hortland. Once that happens to you as the Japanese, you cringe when the "you can not stop Japan in China" cries start up.

Sorry, been there and had it done to me.

Yea I have read that alot here and sorta hide out in the corner embarrassed knowing that my Japanese army is suppose to be invincible

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Post #: 55

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 1:29:41 AM

2ndACR

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No need to hide. It is a matter of the Allied player NOT making a single mistake in China, being ready for a fight there from the get go and coming up with a plan to combat the Japanese player there.

I have used the exact same tactic in China in 5 games and steamrolled the Allied players 4 times. All it takes is one mistake to get the ball rolling for the Japanese. Just one.

Panzer did not make a mistake and stopped me cold.

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Post #: 56

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 2:03:54 AM

rroberson

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I made a huge mistake against Reiyc, brought on by the fact I didnt expect him to contest Canton, every one else just gave up and retreated....needless to say it was probably the main contributor to my downfall, I was not prepared to fight so hard in China and found myself feeding more and more assets into the Asian mainland...never a plus.

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Post #: 57

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 2:10:31 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

What is funny, is that I have never read the rule book.

That just confuses me. I go by trial and error. Watch out for Reiryc, he is sneaky.

When using my CV's, I always completely top them off before going on a little tour. I start heading back when they are at 1/2 capacity on fuel. When I know enemy CV's are in the area, I set the TF to do not refuel. At least I will get a full strike or 2 off if he attacks me.

That is the key. DO NOT REFUEL.

I always set this if I expect the enemy CV's to come out and play. I will have 2-3 AO's and a couple DD's about 10 hexes from my CV force at all times. I keep them way back when possible, but no more than a speed run away.

Maybe you know this already, but try this on for size if you have not. As much as I miss a manual for the can, I must say now I have mastered the online manual and it is a godsend.

Very simply, you hit 'search' and on the right portion of the document a search utility will appear. Let's say you don't know which ships of the JA can be converted into AR's and MLE's. Just type one of the types, say MLE, and the search will come up with ALL the times MLE was mentioned in the document. Not one at a time like a document search in IE, which is pretty cumbersome, but all at once. Then all you have to do is hit the down arrow on your keyboard and it quickly goes to the next instance of that word. The great secuity of it is that you know that there is absolutely no way that an MLE is mentioned otherwise and you don't have to keep hitting ctrl-f, or whatever, every time. If you're a good guesser of words where rules are made, then you have it made. Just type the word carrier or CV and you'll probably every single time they are mentioned and therefore learn on any subject like that very thoroughly and to the point.

I think I'll be a game know-it-all very quickly with using that thing once a question dawns on me. I know this sounds awfully glib to a lot of you, but for many things that need learning, it's a lot speedier than experimenting in the field all the time, but, then again, nothing can help with the 'hidden' rules.

This blows a printed manual away by a mile!!!

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Post #: 58

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 3:10:04 AM

Grotius

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I didn't realize the DO NOT REFUEL choice would prevent your DDs from automatically sucking down a drink. That setting will keep the carriers at 0 OPS points?

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Post #: 59

RE: sigh - 1/22/2005 3:26:43 AM

2ndACR

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That is my understanding. That it would keep the TF from refueling itself and keep the TF from refueling from a port.

Not sure. I could be wrong, but I have yet to get caught flat footed by using it to keep all my op points available. It could also be that I never make a multi day raid into enemy territory trying to provoke a fight on half empty tanks either.

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Post #: 60