RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys?

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 1/29/2005 9:14:16 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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PASTERNAKSKI..... What was really missing was the "known quantity" of Jackson's
aggressiveness and his established reputation and command presense. Both Hill
and Ewell were still a bit tentative in their new positions and their subordinates
were still not sure what to expect in a Battle.....Jackson was as vocally aggressive
as Lee was, and a perfect counter-balance for Longstreets conservative prudence.
Neither Hill or Ewell was really comfortable yet expressing their views---or in taking
initiative....It showed on the first day at Gettysburg in a failure to sieze opportunities
and press advantages.

Add in Lee's ill health and Stuart's absence and you wind up with a "second string"
performance when the South needed an "All Star" effort.....Lee probably should have
leaned more on Longstreet's advice given the situation---but it seems his "fighting
spirit" was in overdrive during the campaign.....Maybe he felt it was the last chance
he would ever have of forcing the issue.

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 1/29/2005 9:39:32 PM

Cap Mandrake

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From: Southern California
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I agree Mike. If Jackson had been in command of Ewell's Corps on the first day things might well have been different. Ewell did well to crush the Yanks North of town, but upon seeing such an opportunity, I suspect Jackson would have moved faster and more vigorously to assault Cemetary Hill and Culp's Hill. Had he succeeded, there would have been no second day battle in Gettysburg.

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 1/29/2005 10:10:12 PM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, Jackson also sometimes sat down and sucked lemons rather then move.
Or he might have moved off farther to the left. Or he might have done everything perfect with the result the Union Army takes position 3 miles or 5 miles or 10 miles from the actual battlefield.

All in all Hill and Ewell did a pretty good job on the first day. But after that frontal attacks were not the answer but frontal attacks were what was tried and it was not Hill or Ewell or Longstreet directing.

Lee might have been more prone to do the old "split and flank" if Jackson was present.
But even then Jackson had been late before. There is nothing to suggest that any plan would have worked to perfection. They never had prior.
It was the poor "Flying Half Moons" that caught it on day 1 from Ewell just like they had in May by Jackson.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 63

RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 1/29/2005 10:45:14 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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MOG..,,,The attacks on the Second day were supposed to be against the Union
flanks....They were delayed (for one reason or the other) until enough Yanks
had arrived to lengthen the Union Line. But remember, the 20th Maine was the
left flank unit of the entire Army of the Potomac during it's hour of glory---and
it was being attacked from the South. Unfortunately for the Rebs, it was being
assulted by the last couple of regiments on their extreme right.

Jackson did a lot of wierd things, but he was very aggressive and always looking
to sieze the initiative. It's hard to imagine him letting the 1st and 11th Corps
rally on Cemetary Hill after he'd gotten them on the run. No one can say for sure the outcome would have been any different---but his previous performance would
argue the 1st day might have been a more complete Union disaster had he been
there. Lee and company would have had to pull more than one "rabbit" out of
their hats to hope for a war ending triumph (it probably wasn't in the cards---but
with Northern Politicians you never can tell), but the Army of Northern Virginia
certainly missed Jackson on that day.

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 12:33:04 AM

CSN

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Joined: 1/28/2005
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Uhmmm,,, does the name Pinkerton ring a bell???Enough said about that..

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 1:14:34 AM

mogami

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Hi, I can't see Jackson taking Culps Hill. Do you know why Ewell did not attack?
Lee asked him to take the hill "'if practicable"
The Union right collapse occured at 4:10 PM
Ewells last division had not yet arrived.
When he went forward to look at Culps Hill he saw the entire Union XII Corps on it digging in.
The battle so far had been between 25,000 Confederates and 18,000 Union troops.
Now Ewell would have to use troops that had been fighting for hours to go up a hill against a fresh Union Corps (not counted in the 18,000 already engaged)

Jackson might have tried. But Jackson would have failed. Jackson had never taken a Union position by frontal attack when opposed by fresh enemy troops of equal number and dug in. (Hard to find an example where any position manned by equal numbers and dug in was taken by a frontal attack in the ACW can anyone name one?

Long after the war to shift the blame from Lee (he was dead by now since no one would lie while he was a live to read it) The "Ewell hesitated" myth was born. Along with the "Longstreet delayed" myth.
Longstreet waited for one of his brigades (with Lee's permission) and then had to make a long march (Lee thought Longstreet would be on the Union flank) But instead of the flank Longstreet ran right into Sickles III Corps that had moved forward. As a result of this the Union actually commited another full Corps.
So Sickles blunder produced the unexpected result of increasing the force opposing Longstreet by quite a bit.
Longstreet attacked where General Lee ordered him to attack. It was Lee's mistake (later blamed on Stuart) thinking it was the flank. But during Longstreets movement I Corps was spotted by Union signal troops on Little Round Top. Lee observed their signals and should have known before Longstreet advanced that he was not beyond the Union flank.

The error Lee made at Gettysburg is easy to explain. He attacked 84,000 veteran troops in good defensive positons with 78,000 veteran troops.
Neither Army ever won a battle trying to do this. Lee had been in commandfor over a year. He should have known better. (I'm sure he thought he had good reasons for his actions and I don't pretend to think that I or anyone else under the same circumstance
could have done better.

Often reasons for failure are simple and right there in the open. 78,000 is less then 84,000
and dispite myths to the contrary the men were just as good on both sides.
It was the ground, and the numbers, and the weather. (It is harder to move to attack then defend when temperture is over 100 degrees)

No part of the ANV moved without following General Lee's orders. No part remained in place without following General Lee's orders.
Longstreets movements were as ordered. But they were mistaken orders. Lee knew how long a covered march from where Longstreet began his movement to where he deployed for attack required. Lee never mentioned any delay. And if an early attack had been his object he could have started Longstreets movement sooner. (Longstreets Corps was on the road in less then 30 minutes)

Concerning Grant being a butcher.

After the failed attack at Cold Harbor one of Lees staff remarked that Grant would run out of men and the north would end the war because Grant was a butcher.
General Lee replied that Grant knew what he was doing and was doing it rather well and was unlikely to repeat the Cold Harbor attack.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/5/2005 6:14:54 PM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 66

RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 6:40:19 AM

marky

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Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

OK, some of you may apparently think Mac or Monty have some tiny redeeming feature. But if you want to discuss generals who think the only purpose of war is to feed their own ego, let's cut to the chase.

How many George McClellan Fanboys are there out there? I mean (in his opinion) he _was_ the greatest general of all time. It was just (similar to Mac) he knew all those people in Washington were conspiring to keep him from achieving the status he was born to deserve.

lol

monty was a baboon

hes so worshipped by britains as the man that beast the the great Desert Fox

wen u have a supremacy in numbers, supplies, intel, men, tanks, aircraft etc, then ur not that hot stuff u think u r

now if u did MORE with LESS than ur opponent, THEN ur good

plus monty didnt secure the belgian port of antwerp

antwerp lies 50 miles up the river SHelt (i cant remember how its spelled) there are 2 banks that straddle the river

monty did NOT secure those banks and the krauts POURED in and fortified it

antwerp fell IIRC on september 3rd or 4th, it wasnt ready to become the main allied supply lin until aklmost 3 MONTHS later, after many casualties, a mine clearing operation, an amphib operation to take a strategic fortified island that defended the approaches, AND, after the WHOLE allied advance had to ATOP cuz they couldnt be supplied, sumthing that couldve been AVOIDED if that dum egotistical monty, too in love with his own image had secured it

lets not forget sicily either

the great generals of WW2?

Rommel, Patton, Bradley,Zhukov, Macarthur to name a few

tho macarthur was kind of a butthead, and a butthead for pushing to the yalu river in korea which as we know provoked the chinese cuz they thot mac was gonna invade china

monty?

NO WAY

anyway..

i know im off topic but..

well i feel BETTER after this little rant

< Message edited by marky -- 2/5/2005 10:41:17 PM >

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 8:44:14 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marky
well i feel BETTER after this little rant

I know that I couldn't have lived without it.

(in reply to marky)

Post #: 68

RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 6:22:31 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I can't see Jackson taking Culps Hill. Do you know why Ewell did not attack?
Lee asked him to take the hill "'if practicable"
The Union right collapse occured at 4:10 PM
Ewells last division had not yet arrived.
When he went forward to look at Culps Hill he saw the entire Union XII Corps on it digging in.

MOG....The "hill" in question in the quote was Cemetary Hill, not Culps---and the
only fresh troops on in were the one small division of the XI Corps which hadn't
moved north through Gettysburg. And without Jackson's death, there would have
still been only two Corps in the Army of Northern Virginia, so there is no way of
saying for sure how it would have all turned out.

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 6:37:20 PM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, What was left of I Corps was also on Cemetary Hill. (The 1st Brigade 1st Div was behind the wall) Without Culps Hill the attack would have been a frontal attack.
All day long the Confenderate success had been a result of new units always arriving on Union flanks.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 70

RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 7:45:28 PM

m10bob

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"To the REAR,Harch!"
-Gen McClellan..(damn near everywhere).

BTW,The Iron Brigade was the only unit of either side to never show it's back to the enemy,unless ordered to do so.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/6/2005 12:52:43 PM >

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 9:30:27 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, What was left of I Corps was also on Cemetary Hill. (The 1st Brigade 1st Div was behind the wall) Without Culps Hill the attack would have been a frontal attack.
All day long the Confenderate success had been a result of new units always arriving on Union flanks.

MOGAMI.....Please read the post before you reply....I said the only FRESH unit on
Cemetary Hill was the single division that Howard had left there earlier in the day.
Yes, there were shaken, beaten, exhausted, and half-routed parts of both the Ist
and XIth Corps trying to rally there as well.....Just as Early and Rodes divisions
were pulling themselves together just to the North of the hill and Pender's division
was gathering to the west (they were the biggest threat, as there was nothing to
stop them from swinging up over Cemetary Ridge and hitting the shaken Union
Position from the SouthWest.)

Let's just agree that Jackson's absense was a factor that might well have changed
the course of the campaign..., but no-one can say for sure what the change might
have been.

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RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/6/2005 10:01:18 PM

Tankerace

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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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Anyone remember the old ACW sound "Marching along?"

The army is gath'ring from near and from far;
The trumpet is sounding the call for the war;
McClellan's our leader, he's gallant and strong;
We'll gird on our armor and be marching along.

chorus:
Marching along, we are marching along,
Gird on the armor and be marching along;
McClellan's our leader, he's gallant and strong;
For God and for country we are marching along.

2. The foe is before us in battle array,
But let us not waver or turn from the way;
The Lord is our strength and the Union's our song;
With courage and faith we are marching along.
chorus:

3. Our wives and our children we leave in your care,
We fell you will help them with sorrow to bear;
'Tis hard thus to part, but we hope 'twon't be long,
We'll keep up our heart as we're marching along.

chorus:

4. We sigh for our country, we mourn for our dead,
For them now our last drop of blood we will shed;
Our cause is the right one - our foe's in the wrong;
Then gladly we'll sing as we're marching along.

chorus:

5. The flag of our country is floating on high,
We'll stand by that flag till we conquer or die;
McClellan's our leader, he's gallant and strong,
We'll gird on our armor and be marching along.

chorus:

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 73

RE: Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys? - 2/8/2005 2:57:50 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

"To the REAR,Harch!"
-Gen McClellan..(damn near everywhere).
BTW,The Iron Brigade was the only unit of either side to never show it's back to the enemy,unless ordered to do so.

Hi, sounds good but it is not true. The Brigde was routed on at least two occasions. To be fair there was not a unit then in service that would not have routed in these situations but the Brigade did rout. I think the 2nd Wis had already been mustered out (or was soon after)
Confederate General John Gordon's attack on May 5 in the Wilderness (first rout), Brigadier General Edward Thomas' Georgia and North Carolina troops again surprised and routed the Iron Brigade regiments at Jericho Mills (23 May 2nd rout)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/7/2005 7:58:48 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 74

Richmond is a Hard Road - 2/8/2005 5:00:09 AM

DeepSix

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From: Music City
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Would you like to hear my song
(I'm afraid it's rather long)
Of the famous "On to Richmond!" double trouble?
Of the half a dozen trips,
And a half a dozen slips,
And the very latest bursting of the bubble?

'Tis pretty hard to sing
And, like a round, round ring,
'Tis a dreadful knotty puzzle to unravel;
Though all the papers swore
When we touched Virginia's shore
That Richmond was a hard road to travel.

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
For Richmond is a hard road to travel.
Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe.

First McDowell, bold and gay,
Set forth the shortest way:
By Manassas in the pleasant summer weather.
But unfortunately ran
On a Stonewall -- foolish man! --
And had a rocky journey altogether.

And he found it rather hard
To ride o'er Beauregard
And Johnston proved a deuce of a bother.
And 'twas clear beyond a doubt
That he didn't like the route [or rout]
And the second time would have to try another.

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
Manassas is a hard road to travel.
Manassas gave us fits and Bull Run made us grieve
And Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe.

Next came the Wooly Horse [John C. Fremont]
With an overwhelming force
To march down to Richmond by the Valley.
But he couldn't find the road
And his onward movements showed
His campaigning was a mere shilly-shally.

Then Commissary Banks
With his motley foreign ranks
Kicking up a great noise, a fuss, and flurry
Lost the whole of his supplies
And, with tears in his eyes,
From the Stonewall ran away in a hurry.

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
The Valley is a hard road to travel.
The Valley wouldn't do and we all had to leave,
For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe.

Then McClelland followed soon
With both spade and balloon
To try the peninsular approaches.
But one and all agreed
That his best rate of speed
Was no faster that the slowest of slow coaches.

Instead of easy ground
At Williamsburg he found
A Longstreet indeed and nothing shorter.
And it put him in the dumps
That spades wasn't "trumps"
And the hills he couldn't level as he orter [ought to.]

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
For a Longstreet is a hard road to travel.
Lay down the shovel and throw away the spade,
For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I'm afraid.

Then Lincoln said to Pope,
"You can make the trip, I hope;
I will save the universal Yankee nation!
To make sure of no defeat,
I'll leave no line of retreat
And issue a famous proclamation."

But that same dreaded Jackson,
This fellow laid his whacks on,
And made him, by compulsion, a seceder.
And Pope took rapid flight
From Manassas' second fight --
'Twas his very last appearance as a leader.

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
For a Stonewall is a hard road to travel.
Pope did his very best, but was evidently sold,
And Richmond is a hard road to travel, I am told.

Last of all the brave Burnside,
With his pontoon bridges tried
A road no one had thought of before him,
With two hundred thousand men
For the rebel slaughter pen
And the blessed Union flag waving o'er him.

But he met a fire like hell
Of canister and shell
That mowed down his men with greatest slaughter
'Twas a shocking sight to view,
That second Waterloo,
And the river ran with more blood than with water.

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve;
Rappahannock is a hard road to travel.
Burnside got in a trap, which caused him for to grieve,
For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe.

Now we are very much perplexed
To know who is the next
To command the new Richmond expedition.
For the capital must blaze,
And that in ninety days,
And Jeff and his men be sent to perdition.

We'll take the cursed town,
And burn it to the ground,
And plunder and hang each cursed Rebel.
Yet the contraband was right
When he told us they would fight:
"Oh, yes, massa, they will fight like the devil!"

Then pull off your coat and roll up your sleeve,
For Richmond is a hard road to travel.
Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve,
For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe.

< Message edited by DeepSix -- 2/7/2005 10:00:13 PM >

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 75

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