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Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/6/2005 6:44:32 PM

Black Cat

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Well it`s out and before I get it are there any objective opinions here. I tend to trust most of the Matrix regulars to be objective.

After looking through their Forums it seems interesting, but somewhat like Breakaway`s inovative but deeply flawed " Austerlitz" and " Waterloo", lots of little sprites moving around, often on their their own, with little C&C from you.

Yes, I`m a control Freak, and comments that the " AI" takes over at points makes me nervous.

Post #: 1

RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/6/2005 7:10:24 PM

Hertston

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I'm a little puzzled about your comments on Austerlitz and Waterloo... "deeply flawed" in what way? Far from being innovative both used Sid Meier's "Gettysburg" engine - but I never had any trouble getting units to do what I wanted (morale effects aside) in any of those games.

Still waiting for news of a UK release for Bull Run. The rest of the "History Channel" stuff has made it so I assume this will, and as they are budget price here I'll pick it up.

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 2

RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/6/2005 7:25:38 PM

Black Cat

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The tendency of the "Friendly AI" ( which was really just dreadful IMO ) to take control at certain points and do dumb things, to not respond to obvious Threats, while responding to non threats ( i.e. forming Square anytime Cav. is anywhere on the Map, Enemy units sitting down to " Rally " next to one of your Hussar Rgts, which can`t attack them, etc, etc,

Then there are Generals wandering between the lines, the useless ( weak ) and slow moving Artillery. All lead to trying to Micro Manage an RT game on a huge scale. I can`t click fast enough to play the full Battle of Waterloo.

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 3

RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/6/2005 7:44:00 PM

ravinhood

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Just from my casual play of it so far, it's not an rts click fest, even though it is in real time. Everything feels to be in a quality time of action and one doesn't feel rushed to do things, at least I don't and I'm the worlds worst critic on RTS clicky fest games around, heh, ask anyone here.

This game requires from what I can tell from the Evans Scenario, quality thought in placement of your units, and also quality thought in retreat and recovery. Don't expect to just stand there and shoot and win the scenario, it doesn't work that way. Maneuver is important in this game and can win or lose a scenario for you.

I haven't played enough to give a full overall review of it yet, and I'm not going to attack anything until I've read the full PDF manual (this is a negative to me btw hehe) and played several scenarios and open battles.

But, if feels right so far and for $17.99 now at NWS, well you can't really go wrong checking it out, you can unload it on ebay if you don't like it for at least $10 and a $5 shipping and handling fee and only be out a couple of bucks. ;)

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Post #: 4

RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/8/2005 12:32:27 AM

*Lava*

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Hi!

This game is nothing like SMG.

It is a study in command, with one of the best darn AI's (for both enemy and friendly troops), I have seen in a long time.

I am, of course, a bit biased.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/8/2005 12:29:38 PM

ravinhood

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Yes Ray is biased, wait for MY review! hehe ;)

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/8/2005 4:32:00 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Yes Ray is biased, wait for MY review! hehe ;)

Hi!

I look forward to any reviews.

I will not, however, comment on the reviews unless they are factually inaccurate. Reviews are for the community. And it is up to the community to decide whether they like a game or not.

I will say, however, that the quantity of raves posted on the MMG forum has been pretty awesome. I think if one first reads some AARs, checks on the screens and movies, comes to an understanding that this is not SMG, but a hybrid wargame/rpg game, where "command" and thinking are more important than a fast mouse click, one will come to understand that this game represents a whole new type of wargame. If you can put yourself into that mindset you will find that ACW Bull Run really makes you fell like you are in command on Civil War battlefield.

I certainly am proud to be a part of the Mad Minute Team. And I just can't wait to start working on the next game.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/8/2005 9:46:17 PM

Hertston

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What's planned next, Ray? Do MM intend to do a sequence of Civil War games ?

Still can't see any sign of a UK release... looks like an import job. At least the exchange rate is good.

EDIT. Just ordered. store4war have it in Europe.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 2/8/2005 7:56:17 PM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/8/2005 10:57:51 PM

Black Cat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Yes Ray is biased, wait for MY review! hehe ;)

Hi!

I look forward to any reviews.

I will not, however, comment on the reviews unless they are factually inaccurate. Reviews are for the community. And it is up to the community to decide whether they like a game or not.

I will say, however, that the quantity of raves posted on the MMG forum has been pretty awesome. I think if one first reads some AARs, checks on the screens and movies, comes to an understanding that this is not SMG, but a hybrid wargame/rpg game, where "command" and thinking are more important than a fast mouse click, one will come to understand that this game represents a whole new type of wargame. If you can put yourself into that mindset you will find that ACW Bull Run really makes you fell like you are in command on Civil War battlefield.

I certainly am proud to be a part of the Mad Minute Team. And I just can't wait to start working on the next game.

Ray (alias Lava)

Ray

I agree that the game is innovative, and breaks new ground in C&C that will be hard for wargamers to get their thinking around.

There is a lot to like in it, However to be objective and as I pointed out in the MM General Forum ( where I post as Case Shot ) under the "Thread "WTF !! ??"

, their are still problems in Open Play that effect Game Play, but more importantly the Negitive Number scoring formulas that shut down Core BR scenarios before they even get started need fixing and quickly.

Also the somewhat " paced" approach to patching the Game indicated by MM Guy Adam is troublesome to me at least, since I don`t view it as quite the finely polished, fault free product they/you all do.

Still, assuming good support and a willingness to listen to the players make it worth buying Right Now, it`s that good, and has that much going for it.

< Message edited by Black Cat -- 2/8/2005 8:59:04 PM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 1:24:27 AM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Yes, I`m a control Freak, and comments that the " AI" takes over at points makes me nervous.

Hi!

If you are a control freak, I do not recommend this game.

This game is about command. It is about learning how to use your subordinate commanders to fight the battle for you. It is not just a wargame, it is also an RPG game in that you must use your commanders traits to win. Therefore, for example, a division commander who is "defensive" in nature will probably do much poorly than one who is "bold" in an attack.

Further, like all games, you must learn the system to win. In Open Play, objectives are placed to provide focal points where the two armies converge. There are major and minor objective points. Minor objective points, once held by a minimum of 1 officer and 1 regiment for a short period, will give a one time of points before they disappear. Major objective points give a larger amount of points, must be held longer to receive the points and reset and continue to give points throughout the game. The objectives have a countdown timer and must be held uninterrupted until the time goes to zero or it will start all over again.

In fighting an open play battle as the Army Commander, you must plot out a strategy which incorporates the objectives into your plan. Like all history, commanders work under constraints such as poor intelligence. Battle is controlled chaos, and this game, like no other, puts the commander into a chaotic situation.

This game has a lot of depth. It requires some patience in developing a winning strategy, especially in open play. If you simply attack the opposing army, I guarantee you will lose. In fact, in most cases, only a portion of the opposing army will send you packing from the battlefield if you do not coordinate your army well.

While there is not doubt the negative limit which ends the game prematurely must be expanded, I however do not see the "urgency" in issuing a patch. In fact, on my patch list that I sent to the Designer I had five items, one of which included a greater negative score. Another was changing the type weapons on a specific regiment. Altogether there was not, IMHO, a significant issue on my list. The game is almost completely bug free, it is a huge bargain for 20 bucks. As it is just now going onto the shelves of stores like Target and Walmart, the majority of the players who will play this game have still to buy it. Thus, it only makes sense to go slow on issuing a patch as the more players who get their hands on the game, the more likely it will be that a "major" issue is discovered. So far, none have been.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 2/8/2005 11:25:45 PM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 2:24:17 AM

Black Cat

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Respectfully I consider the " Negative Points" issue a MAJOR PROBLEM in the Offical Scenarios.

Spending 8-9 hours learning the Game interface, starting a Offical Bull Run Scenario of a Battle that lasted all day, have it develop well only to end in 30 min Real Time and 1:45 min game after only very minor losses because of the Screwed up "Negitive Points" thing is a big deal to me, and I think any other player.

I also find it Sad that my post on that at the offical Forum General Section was moved to " Rants" since it was not ranting and contained just factual material and an AAR of the Scenario where the problem occured.

Censorship is not the way to win friends in the small world of Computer Wargaming, and this is the first time in over 10 years on the Net and involved in Wargaming design and writing on WG that this has occured to me....and I`m pissed about it, mostly because I took the time to try and improve the Game instead of just storing it.

If anyone is interested in the " Negative Points " flaw in this Game check out the offical MM " Rants" Fourm for " WTF".

http://www. madminutegames.com/MadMinuteBB/Index.php

< Message edited by Black Cat -- 2/9/2005 12:25:40 AM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 2:42:56 AM

TF 38

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I picked this game up at EB and have played it for about a week. The problem is not os much that the game controls some friendly troop but that it does nothing with them. Artilery often will not shoot. This is true of ai batterys and those under player control. Its jst so weird to see all your cannons stand before an enemy and do nothing not fire a shot. The artillary is broken. Glad I only paid $20 for it.

Mike

< Message edited by TF 38 -- 2/9/2005 12:45:31 AM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 3:18:12 AM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TF 38

I picked this game up at EB and have played it for about a week. The problem is not os much that the game controls some friendly troop but that it does nothing with them. Artilery often will not shoot. This is true of ai batterys and those under player control. Its jst so weird to see all your cannons stand before an enemy and do nothing not fire a shot. The artillary is broken. Glad I only paid $20 for it.

Mike

Hi!

At present, artillery will not fire on engaged forces due to friendly fire considerations. This will probably get loosened up somewhat in the next game, but it will still almost certainly require a low probability of friendly fire.

Another reason artillery won't fire is because the don't have line of sight.

That about wraps it up. You may take issue with it, but I would hardly call it broken.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 3:31:51 AM

*Lava*

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Hi!

Here is a shot from an AAR I did at the wargamer.com. I am playing the Yankee Army Commander and am flanking the rebs. Notice the "black" and "airel" smoke. That is from artillery.

This is not a counter pusher game guys. Playing the tutorials and the scenarios is a must if you want to learn how to play this game.

I also recommend you read my AAR at the wargamer to get an idea of how it plays as an Army Commander in Open Play.

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 14

RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 3:53:09 AM

Adam@madminutegames.com

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Black Cat-

I understand your frustrations and that you just want to make it known to MMG that there are some scoring bugs...fine...no prob.

However, starting a thread with "WTF" doesn't really show consideration to the other posters...and so you were moved to Rant & Rave. No biggee. You banished yourself...not MMG. I came here to try and ease your frustration and to tell you that you're welcome back anytime.

No game is perfect. It's an ongoing process of trial and error. There's plenty of room for MMG to make the game better...and we will..but that takes time. We hope that all you wargamers will be patient with us and our process...we only do this part-time.

later,dude

< Message edited by Adam@madminutegames.com -- 2/9/2005 1:54:04 AM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 4:01:37 AM

dricard

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I have made a simply review: Game of the year!!

We need more people like you. Congratulations.

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 5:47:04 AM

Black Cat

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Thanks Adam

I appreciated your comments, and regret any mis-understandings. I had no idea the title to my Thread offended someone, but it`s your call since it`s your forums. I had no idea the subject was old news.

I support MMG`s work and think you have a winner that`s worth buying Right Now, with most of the issues with it due, as Ray has suggested, to players misunderstanding the interface, or some " undocumented features ".

I understand your a small shop, and BR is a complex Sim. breaking new ground, and the needed Patch will be forthcoming ASAP.

Later

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 6:01:46 AM

TheHellPatrol

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I just ordered mine, Lava...you have my respect as i have read many of your posts on other forums although Matrix is my "home"

. I love the Civil War era and this seems to be a must have, let's see how those damn yankees react to my pincer move

< Message edited by TheHellPatrol -- 2/8/2005 8:02:41 PM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 6:02:41 AM

Tankerace

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(Darth Vader voice) "pffff....Rebel Scum..." oh wait, wrong genre.

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 6:46:53 AM

TheHellPatrol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

(Darth Vader voice) "pffff....Rebel Scum..." oh wait, wrong genre.

Pffff"You shouldn't have come back Yankee dog" Pfffff

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 9:36:09 AM

mogami

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Hi, I can't wait to play this game. I followed it's prgress with expectation. I almost had a chance to play test it but it was during a period both my machine and internet connection failed. By the time I was ready the opening was closed. (sigh) Still it is something I have been waiting for. I think they did a fine job and just what they always said they were doing.

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 9:38:39 AM

Tankerace

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I think it will be a great game. Granted, Im still partial to SMG and SMA, but Ill probably go ahead and pick this one up too.

I still want a Revolutionary War game like this, that would be sweet.

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 12:38:25 PM

*Lava*

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Hi!

When it comes to games, I really try to be a straight shooter. I've been burned by so many games it ain't funny. So when I comment on a game, I do so because I want people to know whether spending their hard earned cash is worth it or not.

Obviously, being a part of the MMG team tells you a lot about what I think about this game. But that doesn't mean to say this game is for everybody.

If, for example, you cannot live without micromanaging every aspect of the game (and I like doing that too.. depending on the game), then you really need to think hard about buying this game. Only at the lowest level (Brigade) will mircomanaging pay off, as it should because you are directing and responsible for your regiments. As soon as you start climbing the chain-of-command, you have to "assume" the rank, and play as you would command. So at the Division level, you have to learn how to make brigades work, and stay out of the regimental stuff, leaving that to the commander to take care of. When you move to the Army Commander level, well jeez, that is mind blowing. Here you need to let your Division Commanders take care of the fighting and concentrate on maneuvering your divisions and giving them the proper stance (defend, attack, probe or hold) and then let them fight the battle. That doesn't mean you can't intervene at critical areas, but if you start mircromanaging too much, you lose the big picture and you get your butt kicked.

So this game really requires a change in the way you are used to playing wargames, and it is tough. The yanks are easier to handle than the rebs as they have five divisions while the rebs have two large armies. And to be quite honest with you, I still lose more games than I win.

And there are some scenarios that are just really difficult, even on the normal setting. The first scenario, a brigade scenario called Evans, is the setting for the opening of the battle. It is also one of the hardest scenarios to win. Guys come on the board and say, hey, what am I doing wrong, I've lost 5 times in a row? All I can say is, when I first started playing this game, I lost a lot more than 5 times in a row. I still have not been able to hit the magic 400 level on that scenario!!!

Now sometimes, and these are few and far between for me after wargaming for upteen years, a game can be too tough. And after struggling with Evans I asked the MMG guys if they thought that maybe this game was too tough for the average joe. They told me that they programmed the AI to fight and that I would just have to learn how to fight back. At first I thought that was a mistake, but when I look back at my experience I realize they were right. Here is a game with an awesome AI. The AI will react to you, it is not hard coded. So each and every time you play the game, or even a scenario, the battle will play out differently. Quite frankly, there can be no better way to ensure replayability.

Now the game has a number of quirks. Open play especially can be a bit frustrating. But if you put in the time, you can work around these things and have a really enjoyable experience. I know this game is far from perfect, but I also know that Adam and Norb are dedicated to seeing that the game improves with each iteration. Open play, which will one day, I believe, serve as the heart of multiplayer, needs a lot of work, especially when you play at the lower levels. I recommend playing the Army Commander right now in open play and move your way up from small to medium and finally large battles.

It takes something pretty special to stir this gamers old blood, but in CWBR, each time I spool up this game, I get a sense of anticipation that I haven't felt in a long time.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 1:05:22 PM

mogami

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Hi, I have not seen it but just going by the name. Any scenario from First Bull Run with the title "Evans" should be impossible to win. (Unless "Stonewall "shows up )
(All things being historic)
I believe Evans faced 18,000 Union troops with only 3 or 4 rgts and had to hold while the remainder of the Confederate Army moved over.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/9/2005 6:06:37 AM >

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 3:02:20 PM

Erik Rutins

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Got a copy based on Ray's comments and it's a great game. If you like gaming ACW, you should get this.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 3:06:17 PM

mogami

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Hi Erik. Now I am jealous.

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RE: Mad Minutes ACW Bull Run - 2/9/2005 11:43:14 PM

ravinhood

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Yeah I'm getting creamed on that Evans scenario. I've moved everywhere I can think of, done every type of setup, delay, withdraw, sneak, lol. I end up wayyyy in the negative, but, I must be doing something right, each time it lasts a little longer and more of the rebel forces show up, but, they get slaughtered and we all end up retreating.

Something I am finding just a little bit strange:

I am back to back with my rebel forces with union forces that are fighting another rebel force behind me. Now THAT I find a little bit strange, that a union line of troups would run behind me right up to my back and fight what's in front of them instead of what's behind them.

Something seems a little out of cohesion there. And it's not just my troups alone, I'm seeing this across the map, weird like this with units bypassing other units and setting up a line to face other units while their backs are up against the enemy. lol

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Post #: 27