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RE: The WitP Player's Creed

 
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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:10:21 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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" My coworker owns a black powder replica colt pistol. He says that after firing a round, you gotta wait a minute for the smoke cloud to disperse before you can see if you hit the target. "

I am a former member of the North-South Skirmish Association, at whose national matches there would be as many as 300 men firing at once. I can promise you that it doesn't take a minute for the smoke to clear enough to see your target. All their events are timed events (how long does it take a team of 8 men to destroy 32 clay pidgeons mounted on a cardboard backer at 50 yards?), and so being quick and accurate is highly important. We were always able to see immediately our results, even though there was a good deal of smoke. And this was back in the days when DuPont was still making real black powder, rather than the synthetic stuff they make these days.

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fair winds,
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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:18:42 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tonyingesson

Once, during a bombardment run against an Allied base (I think it was Noumea), an Allied PT sunk one of my destroyers with 1 (!) hit by a 0.5 cal MG. Now, if a ship was ever smitten, that must be it...





Obviously the MG hit the helmsman during a high-speed bombardment run, and the DD crashed into the shore, destroying the ship. Dozens of examples in WW2.

P.S. - Before someone asks me to give examples, i'm joking here...

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:34:13 PM   
mlees


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.50 cal bullet hits a torpedo in the deck launchers. Torpedo goes boom. Destroyer Jacknifes. Sharks feed.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:39:09 PM   
mogami


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Hi, didn't Wake USMC AC IJN DD by DC with MG

But a single hit from a .50 cal is not 1 bullet. It is 1 (whatever the increment MG ammo is on PT) of the ammo a PT has hitting the DD.

(suppose a PT MG has 12 shots and in RL carried 1200 rounds. 1 hit would be 1/12 or 100 rounds hitting the DD. Or do you want to sit and watch all 1200 rounds be fired?

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/9/2005 12:43:04 PM >


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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:40:59 PM   
mlees


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Dunno. I thought it was with 5inch shore battery. I will research when I get back home.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:47:20 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Dunno. I thought it was with 5inch shore battery. I will research when I get back home.


Yup - it was the 5" shore batteries.

Not sure a .50 cal would even go through the side of a DDs hull (despite WITP's combat reports) unless you were very close (under 100 meters) and/or using special ammo.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 7:49:12 PM   
tsimmonds


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The shore batteries sank Hayate. The strafing Wildcats sank Kisaragi. Her DCs detonated.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 2/9/2005 12:51:27 PM >


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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 8:11:12 PM   
Tankerace


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Correct. The 5" hit Hayate's torpedoes, and 4 USMC Wildcats from VMF-211 strafed Kisaragi, setting off her DCs, which exploded and sank her, and the rest exploded as she went down. No survivors.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 8:50:35 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Correct. The 5" hit Hayate's torpedoes, and 4 USMC Wildcats from VMF-211 strafed Kisaragi, setting off her DCs, which exploded and sank her, and the rest exploded as she went down. No survivors.


Interesting - i had read at least 2 accounts crediting her (Kisargi's) sinking from bombs from a Wildcat. The pilot they had credited was the squadron commander who was later lost trying for a repeat performance, iirc.

Is this strafing account (relatively) new?

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 8:52:31 PM   
Tankerace


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Since I began studying WW2 history I have always heard of the strafing account. I had heard the Wildcats carried small bombs, but ti was the repeated strafing that did it, at least that's how Ive always heard it.

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 9:00:51 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Since I began studying WW2 history I have always heard of the strafing account. I had heard the Wildcats carried small bombs, but ti was the repeated strafing that did it, at least that's how Ive always heard it.


OK - dunno how much is true, but this is from the USS Elrod website:

"During the defense of Wake, Major Elrod repeatedly displayed conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life, above and beyond the call of duty. On the 12th of December he single-handedly attacked a flight of 22 enemy planes and shot down two. On several flights he executed low altitude bombing and strafing runs on enemy ships, and became the first man to sink a major warship with small caliber bombs delivered from a fighter-type aircraft.

When his plane was destroyed by hostile fire he organized a unit of ground troops into a beach defense and repulsed repeated Japanese attacks until he fell mortally wounded.

On 8 November 1946, his widow was presented with the Medal of Honor, posthumously awarded to her husband for his heroic actions during the last bitter days of the defense of Wake.

Major Elrod was initially buried on Wake Island, but was reinterred in Arlington National Cemetery, Ft. Myer, Virginia, in October 1947."



So, at least some credit Kisargi's sinking to bomb(s). He didn't die during the repeat mission, though - he was killed during the 2nd assault on Wake.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 9:54:40 PM   
rtrapasso


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Not trusting the USS Elrod to be unbiased about their namesake, i tried the Combined Fleets website, and here is their read on it from Kisargi's TROM:

"8-11 December:
Departed Kwajalein, then with first Wake Island invasion force. Sunk: by U.S. Marine aircraft 30 miles southwest of Wake Island (18-55 N, 166-17 E). Bomb hit reportedly led to explosion of depth charges (eyewitnesses dispute this, saying fatal blast originated amidships); blew up and sank with entire crew of 167."

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/9/2005 10:07:30 PM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Mogami, my comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek however...

quote:

Meanwhile, on 13 May 1940, the main German attack by Army Group A (forty-four divisions) began to the south. Seven Panzer divisions with ample air support struck at the relatively weak French 9th and 2nd armies in the Ardennes forest, reaching and crossing the Meuse river and then breaking out to the west within a matter of days.

It was at this point, as Gamelin and his subordinates sought to respond to this unexpected drive, that the weakness of the Allied air forces and the slowness and confusion of the command and control system of the ground forces made itself felt. Efforts during 13th-16th May to move three French armoured divisions held in reserve into a position to attack the German flanks collapsed in a muddle of air attacks, conflicting order and inadequate logistical arrangements. The panzers raced on, and by 20th May had reached the sea.

The only hope for the Allied forces was to lunch a major counter-stroke by forces north and south of the German corridor against the exposed flanks of the GErman line of advance before slower German forces could move up to consolidate the gains made. Though an obvious move in theory, and ordered on several occasions in the third and fourth weeks of May, it proved impossible for the Allied commanders to organise effectivley. German command of the skies in combination with the lack of combined arms in the remaining British and French tank formations, along with a crisis of morale in the French High Command (which the replacement of Gamelin by General Maxime Weygand did little to counteract), meant the Allied counterattacks were weak and unco-ordinated. Though they caused momentary alarm to the German Hish Command, hastily mounted attacks by the newly formed French 4th armoured division and then by a British tank brigade at Arras in the fourth week of May, achieved initial success but foundered for want of sufficient infantry and artillery support. With Army Group B continuing to advance and Belgian resistance collapsing, all subsquent efforts to mount a co-ordinated offensive from north and south foundered.


This is quoted from one of my WWII history encyclopedias.

Basically, the German spearhead was composed of Panzer divisions tearing large holes in the French lines WITHOUT benefit of close infantry support. They did enjoy overwhelming tactical air support. This allowed them to race into the rear areas creating extereme confusion and havoc. Infantry then entered and consolidated these gains.

The French believed armor was best used in support of the infantry and had scattered most of their armored forces trying to defend all avenues of attack. The Germans believed infantry was best used to consolidate the gains achieved by their armor. Their armor typically was free to move forward and engage enemy forces without being tied down by infantry.

French tanks, one on one, were superior to the German Panzer MkIs and IIs but the Germans nullified this advantage by employing superior tactics. German armor also greatly benefited from having radios onboard allowing them to fight effectively in large groups. The French tanks lacked radios and couldn't be effectively coordinated in battle.

You will note that the Allied counter attacks failed due to a lack of infantry support. The German armor attacks succeeded without close infantry support thanks to their air power.

Chez


What encyclopedia did you get that out of? Whatever, it is fundamentally mistaken. German panzer divisions were integrated units of combined arms (to include infantry and artillery) and pretty much operated as such in the field. Of course there were incidents where tanks raced ahead of their divisional infantry support, say. for a few minutes and caused havoc here and there, but this is only to cite the exception to the rule of German panzer doctrine.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/10/2005 12:51:54 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Yes the French used tanks to support infantry. (compared to infantry in support of tanks) The F-17's (of which they had a great number) However they did have 3 Tank divisions and a 4th building. They also had at least 3 "Light Mech" div. Don't let that name fool you. "Light" meant the unit did not require external transport units Everything was mechanized or motorized (compared to other units that had horse drawn arty the light units arty had trucks or was self propelled)
The light div had large numbers of Suma and Char-bis tanks. The infantry rode in armored personal carriers. The French planned to convert a number of units to this model but had not done so by 1940. (By 1942 the French would have had a very mechanized army)
I once tried to modify the old GG West Front game for France 1940 and was amazed by French Order of battle (I could not get around rules for Eastern Front)
It was Gamlein more then anything else that lead to French defeat.
1 Tank div ran out of gas just prior to arrival of Germans the other was still on rail cars when over ran. The light div were exposed to air attacks. (The French airforce is almost amusing. It ended the campaign with more aircraft then it began the campaign with because the French high command could not figure out how to use it)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/9/2005 5:54:04 PM >


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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/10/2005 6:30:40 AM   
testarossa


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French tanks had major design flaw - commander had to observe the battlefield, manage the crew, load, aim and fire the gun. Germans captured a lot of these and despite of all the efforts failed to find any use of them except for anti guerilla patrols and as gun tractors.

Cooperation between German tanks and supporting infantry was excellent (something achieved by allies only by 1945) which peaked as concept of "battle group". Russians got it too by 1944 but on somewhat gigantic scale as concept of the shock army.

On paper German tanks of 1940 were under armored and under gunned, but having superior optics and wireless sets, well developed combined arms doctrine, and independently thinking and aggressive platoon-company level commanders they were able to deal even with soviet T-34 and KV-1 tanks, which were the best AFVs in 1940-1942.

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RE: The WitP Player's Creed - 2/10/2005 7:34:29 AM   
Hornblower


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If you were looking for a giggle, you got me.. that was funny

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