Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

So a leader's Air rating has no effect on anti-aircraft fire?

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

So a leader's Air rating has no effect on anti-aircraft fire?

Why would it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Gary put together the following lists of the impact of various leader ratings on different aspects of the game. Here it is:

LEADER RATINGS

SKILL:
skill roll by air unit leader effects pilot experience gain

MORALE:
morale Rolls effect number of patrol aircraft that fly
morale Rolls effect number of strike aircraft that fly
morale roll effects land unit fatigue reduction
morale roll effects land unit morale reduction due to fatigue
morale roll effects land unit element disabled due to fatigue
morale roll effects disabled land unit element destroyed due to fatigue
morale roll effects air unit morale recovery
morale roll by HQ leader effects attacking land unit assault value
morale roll by HQ leader effects defending land unit assault value
morale roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit assault value
morale roll by unit leader effects defending land unit assault value

NAVAL:
naval roll by ASW ship commander effects sub search (ASW TFs only)
naval roll by sub captain effects sub contact chance
naval rating by sub captain effects subs chance to survive ASW attack
naval roll by TF commander effects chance of "crossing T" in surface combat
naval roll by TF commander effects chance of attaining surprise in surface combat
naval roll by ship captain effects ship's chance of locating a target during surface combat

AIR:
air roll by group leader effects number of strike aircraft that fly
air roll by air HQ leader effects number of strike aircraft that fly
air roll by air HQ leader effects number of patrol aircraft that fly

LAND:
land roll by HQ leader effects attacking land unit assault value
land roll by HQ leader effects defending land unit assault value
land roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit assault value
land roll by unit leader effects defending land unit assault value
land roll by unit leader effects defending land unit's firing accuracy
land roll by unit leader effects defending land unit's experience gain
land roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit's firing accuracy
land roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit's experience gain
land rating of amphib HQ's leader effects chance of amphib unload success

ADMIN
admin roll by unit leader effects ability to use supply to reduce disruption and fatigue
admin roll by HQ leader effects ability to use support to reduce disruption and fatigue

AGGRESSION
aggression roll by TF commander effects chance of Bombard TF to change mission to Surf-Com
aggression roll by TF commander effects chance TFs will converge more rapidly in Surf-Com
aggression rating of sub captain effects chance of contacting enemy TFs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Gary put together the following lists of the impact of various leader ratings on different aspects of the game. Here it is:

LEADER RATINGS

SKILL:
skill roll by air unit leader effects pilot experience gain

MORALE:
morale Rolls effect number of patrol aircraft that fly
morale Rolls effect number of strike aircraft that fly
morale roll effects land unit fatigue reduction
morale roll effects land unit morale reduction due to fatigue
morale roll effects land unit element disabled due to fatigue
morale roll effects disabled land unit element destroyed due to fatigue
morale roll effects air unit morale recovery
morale roll by HQ leader effects attacking land unit assault value
morale roll by HQ leader effects defending land unit assault value
morale roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit assault value
morale roll by unit leader effects defending land unit assault value

NAVAL:
naval roll by ASW ship commander effects sub search (ASW TFs only)
naval roll by sub captain effects sub contact chance
naval rating by sub captain effects subs chance to survive ASW attack
naval roll by TF commander effects chance of "crossing T" in surface combat
naval roll by TF commander effects chance of attaining surprise in surface combat
naval roll by ship captain effects ship's chance of locating a target during surface combat

AIR:
air roll by group leader effects number of strike aircraft that fly
air roll by air HQ leader effects number of strike aircraft that fly
air roll by air HQ leader effects number of patrol aircraft that fly

LAND:
land roll by HQ leader effects attacking land unit assault value
land roll by HQ leader effects defending land unit assault value
land roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit assault value
land roll by unit leader effects defending land unit assault value
land roll by unit leader effects defending land unit's firing accuracy
land roll by unit leader effects defending land unit's experience gain
land roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit's firing accuracy
land roll by unit leader effects attacking land unit's experience gain
land rating of amphib HQ's leader effects chance of amphib unload success

ADMIN
admin roll by unit leader effects ability to use supply to reduce disruption and fatigue
admin roll by HQ leader effects ability to use support to reduce disruption and fatigue

AGGRESSION
aggression roll by TF commander effects chance of Bombard TF to change mission to Surf-Com
aggression roll by TF commander effects chance TFs will converge more rapidly in Surf-Com
aggression rating of sub captain effects chance of contacting enemy TFs

Many thanks for this list!

BTW, I always suspected that, additionally, leaders have their influence in how Air2Sea targeting is done (i.e. how air groups based on CVs and land based air groups choose their targets in target rich environment - when multiple enemy TF targets are present within range).

Is this my "imagination" only or, perhaps, this is as well simulated (this is not mentioned in list above)?


Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Joel said in another thread it would take too much time they didn't have to dig up the leadership formulas. I think the reason we got these at all was because a few of us specifically stated we wanted to know what it affects but not necessarily how.

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

There have been plenty of posts to the effect that many didn't know exactly what leadership affects, mine included. I think how much they affect any one thing is obvious. I've seen large-scale land assaults go from 0:1 to 4:1 just by frigging with the leaders involved. If you kill all possible leaders in a CV combat, your strikes WILL be a horrible nightmare of coordination and CAP will suck rocks.

While I understand why you want the formulas, I agree on the reasons you don't think we'll see them. WITP wasn't, isn't, and never will be a money maker. GGWAW can be, and they have to focus on the bread and butter title. In place of definitive effects tabulation, I'll keep assigning the best possible leaders as appropriate and hope luck goes my way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Joel said in another thread it would take too much time they didn't have to dig up the leadership formulas. I think the reason we got these at all was because a few of us specifically stated we wanted to know what it affects but not necessarily how.

I'm pretty sure most of us pretty much knew WHAT leadership affected. At least if you've read the forums as long as some of us have. We really wanted to know how significant these ratings were. We all knew for years they tended to affect most aspects of combat resolution, but by HOW MUCH? If they are a relatively small part of a combat resolution algorithm then the effort to sqaush all these leader bugs may better be spent doing other things.

I've followed the development of this game and its predecesor in detail for almost five years. The fact that one has to even "dig up" the leadership formulas pretty much tells the story. This is a classic old DOS-style piece of procedural spaghetti code from the get-go which is why they've completely abandoned this engine for all future endeavors. It explains a LOT about the types of problems this game has. The odds of any of most of this being really fixed is virtually nill. They will continue to address the most glaring bugs like CTD's and such, but the rest? Don;t hold your breath. We are talking three guys here with a hot new release getting ready. where do you think they are going to spen their time? They've made their money here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

What is a Carrier Task force leader's and/or Carrier Captain's Air rating used for?

The list only mentions air rolls for group leaders and HQ leaders, nothing about TF leaders.

Gary says:

The carrier TF leader acts as the air-HQ leader for carrier launched aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JD009

WW2 is a technological war, a war of material, not of elan.

quote:

To let the human player guide historical units involved in historical settings through variations in historical events.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

As to JD's comment that Kurita's turn away at Samar was not representative of Japanese leadership; well, I have my doubts actually. Nagumo's failure to attack PH with a third wave, his indecision about striking the US fleet at Midway, Mikuma turning away from the transports at Guadalcanal after smashing the covering forces, Abe's indecision (complemented by Callahan's indecision) at Naval Battle of Guadalcanal which allowed the range to close to point blank, the Japanese failure to close on the wounded Salt Lake City in the Battle of the Komandorski Islands, tend to indicate that there was considerable room for the personal characteristics of individual Japanese leaders to affect the outcome of important actions. If one were to look hard, something of a common thread concerning institutional leadership running throughout might be well argued.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

What is a Carrier Task force leader's and/or Carrier Captain's Air rating used for?

The list only mentions air rolls for group leaders and HQ leaders, nothing about TF leaders.

Gary says:

The carrier TF leader acts as the air-HQ leader for carrier launched aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JD009

Been away for a while.
Not much on this thread.

So Terminus, all Japanese Admirals will run from a fight at every opportunity? Sure make for a short war, just run a couple of DD's out of Pearl Harbor on Dec 7 and the entire Japanese fleet will flee to Tokyo Bay and scuttle themselves?

Using historical examples of actions ignores the tremendous variety of influences on those point-in-time decisions. Can we really know what was on someone's mind when they made a decision? All of the factors they considered, all of the information on the situation as they thought it was happening? Not as hindsight tells us it was happening. Kurita had been awake and under air attack for some time as I recall. What if he had not been? Nagumo was looking for carriers at Pearl Harbor, not the oil tank farm. Hindsight tells us that if they had completely ignored Battleship Row and bombed the oil tank farm they would have been far better off, no US Navy ships west of Hawaii for the first six months of the war. But they didn't know that at the time, they were lookin fer flattops. Their strategy was based on force-vs-force, not on messing with the enemies logistics.

This whole business is one of the problems with leaders. A massive exercise in 20/20 hindsight is in progress. Did every Leader really walk around with their personal performance numbers tattooed on their foreheads? Did the High Command really have the option of making some Aggressive Genius Ensign commander of Combined Fleet? Or were the militaries really pretty much stuck with the main leaders that chance and the pre-war promotion process handed them?

It all smacks of the bad old days of rules lawyers, when people tried to leverage superior knowledge of the minutia of the wording of rules into victory. How many hours will people spend pouring over the leader selection process? Why bother with strategy when you can find the perfect combination of leaders who will guarantee victory, regardless of the forces on each side.

Belphegor; Leaders are not units in this game, they are a randomizing factor. In this case one that can be manipulated to try to gain an advantage. I might say an unfair advantage, but its not really that. Its simply one way that players can expend effort to try to gain an advantage. He (or she) who spends the most hours looking at and assigning leaders wins.

My real concern is the answer to the following either/or pair. Either leader ratings have so little effect on the outcome of battles that its silly to even bother with them? Or leader ratings are so significant as to make them the determining factor in victory? Has this game really been playtested enough to answer which is correct. If the first statement is right then why bother with leaders, you are just spending time for nothing. If the second statement is right then why bother playing the game, the ALLIES WIN. They did in real life so the leader ratings should always yield the same result. I would discount the idea that a perfect balance has been struck as pretty unlikely, especially since even the programmers don't seem to know how it all works.

JDOO9

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
]Now how can we get these "undocumented" aspects (leader effects, etc.) of the game compiled in one source?

quote:

So, has anyone tried the Great Experiment? Play the same small scenario over and over to see what the average results are, then change the leaders and repeat? Should be able to get some kind of stats on results at various stages in the battle. Everybody issue the exact same orders for each Trial. Repetition, repetition... And see what the variations in results are.