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- 6/23/2000 11:09:00 PM

Seth

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I want to clarify my earlier statement to say that I would like to see lots of the rare/what-if units. However, a) I would like to see them so identified (e.g. some sort of code flag, and a text flag for the user) and b) I don't want them at the expense of anything that's already there, unless a unit replaces something that was incorrect. I especially don't want to remove entire countries. Part of the interest of this game for me is that it doesn't only feature the 'coffee table' armies. Let's find a way to expand everything.

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Post #: 31

- 6/23/2000 11:13:00 PM

Desert Fox

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Well, personally, I am all for German war machine glorification. They had tons of cool toys to play with, and I know it would be great if I could play with them too. The allies did not have anywhere near the amount of different vehicles and equipment that the Germans did. I personally don't see much need for the railguns in the oobs since they are of little tactical use. Maybe for those few scenarios that might be an allied battlegroup fighting to destroy the guns, but otherwise they are pretty useless. What I would like to see is all those cool tank variants that the germans had and used in tactical operations. I would also love to see their planned and prototype units. The Maus is already there, but I think it would be interesting to play with the E series and guided anti tank missles. These are great for what-if scenarios and generated 1946+ campaigns. Yeah it would be odd if the AI used these things en masse, but then it already uses a lot of things en masse that it should not be using. To leave something out for the sole reason of keeping the AI from using it is ridiculous. The AI needs to be reprogrammed to fix this. If you want historical deployment, then play scenarios. I have already mentioned my desire for some of the obscure and drawing board allied units, but again, the allies did not have as many as the germans did.

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Post #: 32

- 6/23/2000 11:25:00 PM

Panther

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I think a lot of this discussion is for when you play the long campaign or a lot of battle generated games. I think some obscure items should be included in the game for scenerio designs where the designer has the option to chose the weapons for fun only and in what if battle. But after saying all of this maybe some restrictions could be used for the AI where the AI can not purchase these units. As to fighting only defensive battles, as some one has stated before, has any one fought a defensive battle where the assulting units were under human control things really get very messy for defense. Panther

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Post #: 33

- 6/23/2000 11:54:00 PM

victorhauser

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How does somebody go about setting up a fair tournament when one nation has 300+ different unit types to choose from but all the other nations have 200 or less? For that matter, how does one go about arranging a fair PBEM game under the same circumstances?

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Post #: 34

- 6/23/2000 11:58:00 PM

Seth

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Well, there is no reason to restrict unit selection to 'balance' things. It's just tough luck for the small countries. USSR v. Bulgaria will never be a fair fight, even if you eliminate half the Soviet OOB. If you want to have UK v. USSR it's a fair fight, and it doesn't matter how many units they can choose from. Variety does not equal superiority.

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Post #: 35

- 6/24/2000 12:06:00 AM

victorhauser

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Seth, does that mean you wouldn't mind playing against me where I get the nation that has 300+ units to choose from and you only get 200 or less?

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Post #: 36

- 6/24/2000 12:07:00 AM

Drake666

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Lick all I wanted them units for is scenario making. If you put them in one of the smaller oobs and you dont make any formations for them the computer or a human player could only use them in a scenario. I dont want them as a main part of the forces you could buy in a Email game.

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Post #: 37

- 6/24/2000 12:27:00 AM

Tombstone

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I agree with Seth there. It's not the number of units in the OOB that matters, it's the fact that Russia gets T-34's in 1941, or that Germany gets Tigers in 1943... However, I disagree with the "full German war machine glorification", it wastes space to have variants on vehicles that aren't different enough to change gameplay. Minor variations just fill up the encyclopedia and create confusion among less fanatical players. There is no need for every single type of halftrack variant to be in the game. For me this has nothing to with equal representation of nations, it's purely the fact that having gobs of 'stuff' isn't inherently better. The Germans in WWII happen to have created a situation for themselves that's affecting us today. Since they did have so many damn variants anyone with an equiptment history book can find reference to some vehicle or weapon that was used once or twice and think that SPWAW is neglecting Germany "and all it's glory." Most countries dont go through the same magnitude of nationwide madness that would allow for such an inefficient, pride-laden military industry. I'm all for having prototypes that could have had a big impact on tactical combat (but there should be some kind of limitation on their use or something) Just think about it. When you're playing the game you dont care wether you have the option to have one variant over the other if it doesn't have any impact on the game. I used to feel that the more the better was always the case. But I don't play as if that was the case. I purchase based on historical accuracy, or bang for the buck. (That means I love StuGIII's, and T-34s) Tomo

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Post #: 38

- 6/24/2000 12:28:00 AM

Seth

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Well, as long as I had all the basics, no. I'd even accept the implied challenge, except I really don't have time, and I doubt my skill is up to yours. Tanks are just tanks. If you can choose from 50 types, and I can only pick from three types of equal quality, it makes no difference. What will make the difference is troop and equipment quality. For smaller countries, that's almost always going to be lower. Small countries usually have less to choose from, but I don't think the number of choices has anything to do with their being outclassed. Rather, it's the obsolete crud with which they were burdened. You could probably win as the Germans against all of the minors if you were only able to pick from a Panther and one of the better rifle squads. I like the minors, so don't misunderstand me. I think every country should have as much variety as historical realism permits. I would also like to see the exotics, and I wouldn't be afraid to take them on. Now maybe I would be more comfortable playing as the Italians against your Germans if we had a gentlemen's agreement not to use the Maus, but that's no reason to get rid of it. I'd probably lose, but that has nothing to do with unit choices. Some armies are just inherently superior to others. If everyone was equal, it would be unrealistic, and no fun to boot. Why not just knock everyone down to one generic tank, a generic infantry team, etc.? Shades of SP1!

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Post #: 39

- 6/24/2000 12:36:00 AM

Moonwolf

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Look guys, no need to fight -- if you want to, let's do it over a PBEM game. Check out The Russo-German Edition, an OOB add-on for SP:WW2. It includes TONS of German and Russian units never before seen -- even V-2's and heli-planes! OK, so there's a bug with the V-2's that doesn't let them fire (ruined a PBEM game strategy I had), but that will be fixed asap. My point here is that there are people working to give the German players what they want, and the Russian players what they want. Yes, it's not available for SPWAW . . . yet. But pick it up for SP:WW2 v2.x while you still have it on your hard drive, and then write to Klaus & Oleg and let them know you want the same thing for SPWAW! That's how you do it, IMHO, not by shortshrifting other countries, or using valuable time & resources on one country when they can be spent in making the game more well-rounded. There are many, many battles that are important, interesting and fun that don't include the Germans, Russians, Americans & British . . . I just did one for SP:WW2 that included Thailand -- a great assault-defend scenario (the actual battle, that is). I don't advocate that Thailand be brought into the game on the strength of one battle -- but I'd like to be able to model Thailand for a couple of scenarios off another countries OOB -- but I can't do that if the game becomes a German East & West Front Game. The game is billed, after all, as allowing the player to choose -any- Allied or Axis nation. It doesn't fulfill that promise yet, and never will if they concentrate on just the 3 or 4 major players (who are done in great depth already -- as evidence of there not being any more room in the German OOB for additions). I'm not arguing with anyone here, just putting my two pence in. If I see people calling for something I don't want to see happen, and then do not respond with what I would rather see -- then I have no complaint when the game turns into something I don't want to play anymore. But I have every right to ask for greater detail on the "minor" country OOBs, just as those advocating expanded German OOBs do. Right? And that is all I'm doing -- asking for what I want to see. And as I said, if anyone wants to fight, let's do it on the SPWAW battlefield, OK?

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Post #: 40

- 6/24/2000 12:55:00 AM

Charles22

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Panther: It was I who made the comment about someone else's approach to playing only defensive battles. I was making the comment under the belief that they were advocating such a scheme while playing against AI in a campaign. I agree with you on what you say about rare units. Sure, if I will only play Gerry, I might wish every rare unit available, but when you have to fight a nation in a campaign which is the equivalent of the sci-fi force from Hell, what's the point in playing it? The user can be disciplined enough to rarely use rare units, but the AI is the problem, and if rare units cannot be stopped from disproportionate selection then eliminating it from choosing those units is quite practical. I don't think we should sacrifice history to the altars of the hypothetical. For hypothetical buffs, I'm sure "Sudden Strike" will fill the desire.

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Post #: 41

- 6/24/2000 1:07:00 AM

victorhauser

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Seth, I wasn't trying to goad you into anything. I was leading up to something that Tomo serendipitously implied (and Moonwolf, too, just now). It's human nature to look for an edge when participating in any competitive endeavor. And one of the ways we do it in SPWAW is to look for the biggest bang for our SPWAW buck (to paraphrase Tomo). As carefully as the SPWAW staff tries to calibrate the point costs of units, there are always some that are "overpriced" (not cost effective) and "underpriced" (extremely cost effective). And if I'm playing a nation that has 300+ units to choose from, then chances are that I'll have more opportunities to find "underpriced" units than if i have only 200 or less units to choose from. That's what I was leading up to when I claimed that having 300+ units to choose from gave me an advantage over somebody that had only 200 or less to choose from. I still claim that, actually.

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Post #: 42

- 6/24/2000 1:12:00 AM

BA Evans

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quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: How does somebody go about setting up a fair tournament when one nation has 300+ different unit types to choose from but all the other nations have 200 or less? For that matter, how does one go about arranging a fair PBEM game under the same circumstances?

The number of units available has nothing to do with play balance. The important considerations would be: 1. Date of introduction: Panthers in '39 would be a problem 2. Cost of unit vs. unit effectiveness: Panther cost = 1 point would be a problem. Don't equate number of units in a particular OOB with the strength of that army. Just because a particular OOB has 300+ variants of the Horse Drawn Wagon, doesn't mean it is a superior OOB. BA Evans

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Post #: 43

- 6/24/2000 1:16:00 AM

Larry Holt

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I was surprised (terrified?) when the AI chose over 100 French Char-Bs to advance against my puny, inexperienced PzKpwIIIe's early in my campaign. From this I know the feeling of frustration when the AI chooses lots of something that historically wasn't there (the French just didn't mass them as the AI did). But you know what? I beat the AI. (surpise, surprise) That just shows that tactics more than equipment wins battles. This thread has focused on a nation having an advantage by having a larger variety of equipment than another. Seth said that "tanks are tanks" and that training is the thing (to paraphrase him). Seth's got it right! In WWII the allied equipment was often better and more numerous than the German's was but the Germans could do things that their opponents just couldn't (until the end of the war when training broke down). I don't mean to advocate for or against OOB changes but to remind all that its the people, not the equipment, that wins. If the AIP/human player romps over you, review your tactics not your equipment. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 44

- 6/24/2000 1:30:00 AM

Moonwolf

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quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: If the AIP/human player romps over you, review your tactics not your equipment.

My point, and my line of thought, has nothing to do with winning or losing, but with having a game that allows us to play the "minor" countries and have as much fun as those who play the "major" countries. i would not ask for that if this game was billed as an East Front game, or a West Front game, or a PanzerBlitz game, etc. But it is billed as a World War game. The Germans remain the best professional soldiers of the lot. I have no problem with that. I also have no problem losing to a better tactician than I am -- regardless of the country he uses. I have won as the Belgians, and have lost as the Germans (just for example). I can't agree more with the statement that it is the strategy behind the equipment that is important. But I also agree that if a country is poorly represented in its equipment (&/or its soldiers), it is then starting at a disadvantage regardless of the gamer's competency.

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Post #: 45

- 6/24/2000 1:33:00 AM

krull

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Since I am a nice guy I just want to mention Variants are nice.Because some people get tired of fighting the same battle over and over . What IF challenges are very funId love to see HUGE equipment list in ht egame. Mainly because I was a Simper Fi My father was one and My grandfather and My great Grandfather was a Cherokee Scout for the army. I have heard many tales of things,eq, incidents and have seen many. You must think of others who like historical yes but alos others who like What If things with out those a game can ebcome very boreing quickly and if you think PBEM's are What Ifs alot if they are not based on historical battles. I think matrix has done a great job and hope they will keep it up so does My wifey who thanks to some of WB's crazy tactics she learned From TGN and posts. She and I have some very Nice battles here at Home. Please continue to listen and produce quality stuff because we will bye them as soon as they are available.

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Post #: 46

- 6/24/2000 1:35:00 AM

Seth

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by victorhauser: [B]Seth, I wasn't trying to goad you into anything. I was leading up to something that Tomo serendipitously implied (and Moonwolf, too, just now). Oh, don't worry, I didn't see it that way. I see what you mean about the pricing, but that is really such a minor thing, especially now that they're fixing the clearance priced Polish inf., etc. Yes, you could maybe find a 'deal', but in all likelihood, the country with a larger selection will win anyway because a larger selection almost always means a more advanced military, backed by a good industry. Those sort of countries tend to have better troop quality too. So the country with more units is a safer bet to win with, but not really because of the bigger unit list, just what it says about that country.

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Post #: 47

- 6/24/2000 1:57:00 AM

Charles22

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testing

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Post #: 48

- 6/24/2000 2:36:00 AM

Charles22

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Hmmm. My logonid wasn't being recognized on the last post I attempted, but the test one just did. Somewhat like Larry, I faced 150 S-35's out of 170 French tanks and I couldn't believe that I beat the snot out of them, as they folded after so many losses. It was a disproportionate battle. The point isn't that I won, but that I faced something of a sci-fi force. Take for example what I did with the Poles. They were getting 75mm AA guns too numerously and too cheaply, so I raised the cost to what might should be 45. What did they do after that? They went and picked 8 of them; far disproportioante if you ask me (oh I reduced it's range I think to 96 or something too because it had something like 248). I suppose running into a Polish force that has that many isn't too terrible, but the fact that they still pick it after I raised it to 45 expense, means that their force had little more than the silly flaks, making them quite lopsided. Would the Poles do this all the time? Imagine the French scenario where the AI campaign opponent is picking as Gerry and picks 8 or more flaks, or worse yet, picks 100-150 Elefants, and you see the problem; it turns into a sci-fi battle. You see, facing the very best unit in HUGE proportions from France, Poland, Italy and the like, may not matter too much, but when you're facing Gerry or Rusky..... Adding Gustavs and V-2's? Don't even get me started. I appreciate the need for fighting with the odd unit in scenarios, but must it turn campaigns into sci-fi battles?

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Post #: 49

- 6/24/2000 2:44:00 AM

Warhorse

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quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: What is going on here? Are we refighting WW2 over the OOBs? Are the smaller OOBs being swallowed up by the Germans in their OOB quest for lebensraum? Are the smaller OOBs having their OOB genetic structure altered by the introduction of German OOB "DNA"? And if this isn't a flagrant case of Germanic glorification, then why aren't these issues being discussed in Paul Vebber's topic "Make OOB Comments Here"? This is getting ridiculous. With the new version 2.0, the possibility of having 600 units in the game makes most of these Germanic OOB "requests" extremely problematic. I mean, now it will be possible to buy dozens of units of the same type. But if there were only a handful of a certain weapon produced (for instance, the Sturmtiger) the game can now be corrupted since a player can have dozens of them in his game. This makes no sense. And corrupting other nations' OOBs to make available these obscure and limited variants of German war production makes even less sense. I advocate forcing players who wish to include these deviants from German mainstream war production alter their own OOBs to do this, rather than forcing their wishes upon the rest of us who don't. Please keep the structure of the existing OOBs free from alteration by outside nationalities.

Hello, I wasn't trying to alter DNA, or anything of the sort! I just like to make icons, had no more room in the German file, because of all the forts and stuff, so we put them TEMPORARILY in the Philipino oob. They have radio code of '3', so the computer PA player will not purchase these. I will certainly make icons for ANT country, I actually prefer the Axis Minors to the Germans, you can tell, if you view the Hungarians,Rumanians, Bulgaria, etc. The Netherlands have not even been touched as far as icons!! Lots to do there, but don't have all day to sit in front of the computer. My intention is not to start international incidents over the oob's, so lets just realize the game is nowhere near complete, we are listening, and striving to make it ever better! My icon list is limited only by available slots, which are starting to dwidle, after getting some of the Allied Minors, and other stuff done, then we can see where we are at;-) Thanks for all you folks input, ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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- 6/24/2000 2:48:00 AM

Tombstone

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That AI purchasing thing is a pain though... I swear it's straight silly when you have the game the daylights out of the AI killing B1-bis after B1-bis. The fact that tactics outweigh equipment is illustrated rather well by the germans in 1940 against the french. But the germans wouldn't have had a prayer if hundreds of s-35's and b1's came bearing down on their panzer divisions. Sorry for the rant, but I just had to go through that.. Tomo

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- 6/24/2000 6:11:00 AM

Warhorse

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quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: That AI purchasing thing is a pain though... I swear it's straight silly when you have the game the daylights out of the AI killing B1-bis after B1-bis. The fact that tactics outweigh equipment is illustrated rather well by the germans in 1940 against the french. But the germans wouldn't have had a prayer if hundreds of s-35's and b1's came bearing down on their panzer divisions. Sorry for the rant, but I just had to go through that.. Tomo

No rant, I hate that so much now that at the beginning of every battle in a campaign, I save and go in the editor with the save as a scenario, and rebuy the computer forces, with more realistic units, then hit auto deploy, so at least I don't know where something is! This works well, I even like to stack the odds against myself with the Soviets, just to see if I can make it through a nightmare once in a while;-) ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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- 6/24/2000 6:34:00 AM

Supervisor

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You are right, one 15" shell will not a Gustav shell make but a salvo of 8 or 9 15" shells form an offshore battleship would simulate the devastation of one Gustav shell BTW, Brent mentioned 15" shells. No way 15" shells compare to the Gustav, no way. The Allies didn't go on frantic air searches for the Gustav because it was just another 15" gun.

[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 06-23-2000).][/B][/QUOTE] ------------------ Grenadier SPWAW Beta Team

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Post #: 53

- 6/24/2000 6:38:00 AM

victorhauser

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quote:

Originally posted by Warhorse: No rant, I hate that so much now that at the beginning of every battle in a campaign, I save and go in the editor with the save as a scenario, and rebuy the computer forces, with more realistic units, then hit auto deploy, so at least I don't know where something is! ...

How do you keep the game linked to the campaign after you edit it from a campaign battle to a scenario? I tried to do this back when I was playing SP3 and gave up.

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- 6/24/2000 6:38:00 AM

Supervisor

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That was what helped Germany lose the war. They had hundreds of weapons that needed spares while the Soviets merrily chugged along with the T-34 and KV-JS chassis for all of their weapons. Some comments have been made concerning the Germanic focus of OOB expansion. The Germans were the tactical inovators of WWII and had more special equipment than the others. Now I realize that the Western Allies also produced a number of special tanks (sometimes refered to as funnies). but I don't think they had the all around number of varients that the Germans did. I could be wrong & if I am then by all means suggest additonal Allied units (but in a nice way please).

[/B][/QUOTE] ------------------ Grenadier SPWAW Beta Team

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Post #: 55

- 6/24/2000 6:50:00 AM

Supervisor

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EWhat is fascinating about the wargaming community is their fascination with the german military. How many wargames out there do not have a German reference in their title? Close Combat? TAOW? The rest have some German connection, Steel Panthers, Tigers on the Prowl, Kampfgruppe, Panthers in the Shadows, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, Panzer Commander, i Panzer 44, Panzer Battles. Looka at the box art for most of the games as well. Lets face it, Germany sells or no one would use the connection. You don't see any WW2 games called Sherman Commander or Armor Battles. I don't want to see SPWAW become dominated by ANY ethnocentric viewpoint. When I use the word "advocate", that is not synonymous with self-coronation. [/B][/QUOTE] ------------------ Grenadier SPWAW Beta Team

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Post #: 56

- 6/24/2000 6:58:00 AM

Moonwolf

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quote:

Originally posted by Brent: Some comments have been made concerning the Germanic focus of OOB expansion. The Germans were the tactical inovators of WWII and had more special equipment than the others. Now I realize that the Western Allies also produced a number of special tanks (sometimes refered to as funnies). but I don't think they had the all around number of varients that the Germans did. I could be wrong & if I am then by all means suggest additonal Allied units (but in a nice way please).

It's not parity anybody is looking for. It's not even units for the Allies anybody is looking for. It's just better OOBs for the other countries, regardless of who they are. Italy's OOB is missing a lot of things, and what it does have is frequently wrong. That's just an honest observation, I'm not putting anybody down. The Spanish OOBs are very vanilla OOBs -- and they should have a vast variety of weapons and units - before and during WWII. The Canadians are missing the Grizzly tank (among other units) and their unit formations are not near the variety they had. The list goes on and on. The OOB threads destify to the work that needs to be done on ALL the OOBs -- not just the Germans or the Americans. That's all I'm saying. That there is a lot of work that has to be done on all the OOBs. The German OOB is the most complete. Maybe it's time to put them down for a while, and bring the rest of the world up to snuff. I'm not saying abandon the Germans, but that maybe it's time to concentrate on the other countries. ------------------ Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone

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- 6/24/2000 7:01:00 AM

Charles22

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Nope, sorry Brent, even if you piled consequtive 15" shells on the same spot, you just wouldn't penetrate as the Gustav did. We're talking about it shattering "underground" bunkers here 100' below the sea bed. If what you were saying were true, don't you think that they would have just made a rail device to house multiple 15" guns instead? Afterall, they did already have those shells and guns somewhat mass produced on some of the ships. Just to put the Gustav in a little perspective, it was a 800mm gun. Reading the following, qouted from "The Military History of World War II" I may had read it wrong, but here's what it says pg. 115, "Schwere Gustav" was again in action on 6 June, initially against Fort Molotov. Seven shells demolished that structure and then it was the turn of the target known as 'The White Cliff'. This was the aiming point for an underground ammunition magazine under Severnaya Bay, and so placed by the Soviets as to be invulnerable to conventional weapons. It was not invulernable to the 80-cm K (E), for nine projectiles bored their way down through the sea, through over 100' of sea bottom and then exploded inside the magazine. By the time 'schwere Gustav' had finished it's ninth shot the magazine was a wreck, and to cap it all a small sailing ship had been sunk in the process." BTW, elsewhere it mentioned that it's shell was a 7100-kg concrete-piercing one. To look at a picture of the shell, it looks to be about 12' long. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 06-23-2000).]

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- 6/24/2000 8:52:00 AM

victorhauser

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Brent: EWhat is fascinating about the wargaming community is their fascination with the german military. How many wargames out there do not have a German reference in their title? Close Combat? TAOW? The rest have some German connection, Steel Panthers, Tigers on the Prowl, Kampfgruppe, Panthers in the Shadows, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, Panzer Commander, i Panzer 44, Panzer Battles. Looka at the box art for most of the games as well. Lets face it, Germany sells or no one would use the connection. You don't see any WW2 games called Sherman Commander or Armor Battles.

I think there are a variety of explanations for this phenomenon. One is that the words "panzer", "tigers", "panthers", have a more exciting sound and evocative appeal than bland words like "armor". Words like "Patton", "leatherneck", "OVERLORD", also have an exciting sound and are also appealing. But that's not the real reason people like "panzer", is it? Nope. The "Star Wars" movies would not have been the same without Darth Vader. Without a powerful and formidable villain, the ultimate success of the Han, Luke, Leia, and the others would not have been so gratifying in the end. The hard fought victories are usually the most satisfying. And the Germans in WW2 were certainly formidable villains. Of course, those of you who've read some of my earlier posts might notice my concerns that many WW2 players don't see the Germans as villains at all. In fact, to these players the Germans are the ultimate conquering heroes it seems. The best of the best. Perhaps they even believe that the Germans should have won the war. Whatever. And given human fascination with the dark aspects of our collective psyches, this is not surprising. {Don't misunderstand me. I am not calling all Germans villains, nor even all WW2 Germans villains. I'm referring to the Nazi War Machine, and, by implication since they carried out their orders, the German Armed Forces which were the instrument of that Machine. Note also that I realize that a small number of German soldiers opposed the conduct of the War Machine for which they fought, and did their best to fight with honor and clean conscience for an unclean Regime.} In any event, admitting or embracing or excusing that darkness as "the way it is" or "Germany sells", to me seems ultimately unsavory.

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VAH

(in reply to Drake666)

Post #: 59

- 6/24/2000 9:15:00 AM

Moonwolf

Posts: 62
Joined: 6/6/2000
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: In any event, admitting or embracing or excusing that darkness as "the way it is" or "Germany sells", to me seems ultimately unsavory.

Thank you. ------------------ Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone

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Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone

(in reply to Drake666)

Post #: 60

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