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Interested in opinions about a map experiment - Panama ... - 3/2/2005 3:33:34 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline 		I am currently helping with the Combined Mod, which is being developed by a number of people (see the numerous posts in the Scenario Design / Game Editor forum for an idea of what we are doing).

The scenario is being developed for use with my modified game map. One of the things we are thinking of doing is modifying my map further, adding in 'off map' areas as follows:


  • A base in the very top left corner of the map, called 'Aden', that will represent the British posessions in the Middle East. This base is where most British reinforcements and supply will appear, and it will then have to be shipped to India (or wherever).
  • Bases representing the Panama Canal and surrounding area, including the Galapagos Islands. Many US reinforcements will be changed to appear here.


Distances to these bases will be made correct by using blocked hexes to force ships to follow particular paths to get to them.

I am interested in what others think of this idea. it is an experiment, and it is designed specifically for use with the combined mod scenario. It has yet to be playtested, but I hope to do that soon. It will mean that to play the combined mod, the special map will need to be downloaded and installed, either using my load/unload scripts provided with my map mod, or in a separate installation of the game.

What do you think about this idea? I would appreciate any comments: favourable or unfavourable.

Andrew

< Message edited by Andrew Brown -- 3/6/2005 11:54:01 AM >

_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website

Post #: 1
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:54:50 AM   
Moquia


Posts: 174
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		I think this is a good idea. If India is a fair target for the Japanese, then something has do be done with the reinforcements etc.

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Post #: 2
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 4:01:23 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		If the base is placed along the top of the map and inland, Aden (Red Sea would be my choice of name) would also allow the Allies to safely withdraw shipping from the veritable fish bowl the Indian Ocean is. Same can be done with Panama/East Coast by making a barrier of impassable sea hexes so air can't target it and base built up to SUPER UBER status to keep bombardment happy players from being silly.

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Post #: 3
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 4:18:28 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I say do it. It will really slow the game pace down, as units will arrive at Panama, and then have to be carted to California, and then taken to its destination.

Very good idea, go for it!

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Post #: 4
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 4:19:21 AM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline 		tough to say ... but anything that puts the brakes on those dang americans...hehehe...must be a good thing

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 5
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 4:48:50 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Sounds great to me. Love the work you have done so far.

(in reply to 33Vyper)
Post #: 6
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 5:59:31 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		athough I'm always infavor of anything to slow down the Allied assault, what is the background for adding this? Is there something currently ahistorical with the "limited' map ?

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 7
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 6:06:07 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

athough I'm always infavor of anything to slow down the Allied assault, what is the background for adding this? Is there something currently ahistorical with the "limited' map ?


There are two separate issues:

- Regarding the Middle East: with the current map, there is no rear area that the British can use if India is threatened. In reality, they had their posessions in Africa and the Middle East that could have been used.

- The Panama Canal is less important game wise, but was an extremely important objective in a strategic sense, and it was one of the major entry points for forces and materiel from the US East Cost. From here there was an alternative shipping route, via Bora Bora in the Society islands, to Australia and areas in the Southwest Pacific.

On top of that, adding these bases expands the strategic scope of the game. Also remember that it is only experimental - I have no idea whether it really is a good idea to add these areas, or whether they will work properly.

_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 8
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 6:13:24 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		I don't know about this. It seems a good idea on the surface, but I'm not sure the added complexity will help, particularly for those who play the AI. I can see lots of unintended consequences, most of them bad.

Perhaps finish the CHS with your current map and then a second version with this new map?

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Post #: 9
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 6:20:03 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		One thing Andrew is to make sure that the hex that is Panama Canal has lots of supplies flowing into it every day.

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Post #: 10
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 6:38:06 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

athough I'm always infavor of anything to slow down the Allied assault, what is the background for adding this? Is there something currently ahistorical with the "limited' map ?


There are two separate issues:

- Regarding the Middle East: with the current map, there is no rear area that the British can use if India is threatened. In reality, they had their posessions in Africa and the Middle East that could have been used.

- The Panama Canal is less important game wise, but was an extremely important objective in a strategic sense, and it was one of the major entry points for forces and materiel from the US East Cost. From here there was an alternative shipping route, via Bora Bora in the Society islands, to Australia and areas in the Southwest Pacific.

On top of that, adding these bases expands the strategic scope of the game. Also remember that it is only experimental - I have no idea whether it really is a good idea to add these areas, or whether they will work properly.


Aden will be good simply because by removing the auto supply from here and relocating it in Aden, the British will have to ship the supplies and units to India. Will help alleviate the hordes of shipping the Allies have because they have nothing to do. (with resource centres producing supplies along with resources the game designers have basically gutted the need for merchant shipping).

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 11
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 6:49:14 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		Along with Aden, would you consider Diego Garcia also? It was also a major jump off point and could represent those assets that come via Capetown in South Africa.

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 3/1/2005 8:51:14 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 8:25:28 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Along with Aden, would you consider Diego Garcia also? It was also a major jump off point and could represent those assets that come via Capetown in South Africa.

Chez


This has been requested before. Unfortunately I think that the map is just too cramped to add it. Aden itself is already quite a stretch, and could only be added with some difficulty.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 13
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 10:47:12 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

This has been requested before. Unfortunately I think that the map is just too cramped to add it. Aden itself is already quite a stretch, and could only be added with some difficulty.


Why not call Aden just "Middle East", since it'll be abstracted in a way, composing all British ME and African bases ?? Like Panama/East USA ??

Cheers,

M.S.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 14
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 11:22:04 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		It sounds good. My only concern would be the approach path to these destinations. Would it allow the opposing side to blockade only a few hexes to deny access? Or will the edge of the map be considered the exit path?

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Post #: 15
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 2:05:44 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Andrew,I use nothing but your map mod now,for the corrected distances and added locations you have provided.
I am very much in favor of the suggested additions,especially Panama..(This might give the Japanese player a real "what-if" possibility of hurting east coast replacements).

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Post #: 16
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 2:42:59 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

It sounds good. My only concern would be the approach path to these destinations. Would it allow the opposing side to blockade only a few hexes to deny access? Or will the edge of the map be considered the exit path?

What kind of people you gaming against who would do that?

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Post #: 17
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:11:39 PM   
Bulldog61


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/23/2000
From: Aurora,CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I say do it. It will really slow the game pace down, as units will arrive at Panama, and then have to be carted to California, and then taken to its destination.

Very good idea, go for it!


Those ships arriving at Panama would just be available about 10 days or so earlier.

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Post #: 18
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:23:24 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

It sounds good. My only concern would be the approach path to these destinations. Would it allow the opposing side to blockade only a few hexes to deny access? Or will the edge of the map be considered the exit path?

What kind of people you gaming against who would do that?


Halsey, there is little I can do to prevent players from attempting what you describe, as it is impossible for me to extend the map itself. However consider the following:

  • If submarines are massed in the paths, then they can also be found more easily by enemy ASW TFs.
  • There is no surface TF interception during movement - probably a good thing in this situation.
  • It will be much easier for enemy TFs to intercept, but these sea paths are a long way away from Japanese bases - especially the ones to Panama, so it might be difficult to attempt such blockades effectively.
  • In the case of Panama, I have added more than one path, so there are alternatives, and if a Japanese TF camps in one then shipping can be sent via another.


Hopefully it won't be a major poblem, but this will only be discovered through testing.

I will put up a few screenshots soon, to illustrate how it will work.

_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


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Post #: 19
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:24:34 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I say go for it.

Given that you have worked out the format of the pwhex.dat file, would it not be relatively simple to actually expand the map?

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Post #: 20
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:28:36 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

This has been requested before. Unfortunately I think that the map is just too cramped to add it. Aden itself is already quite a stretch, and could only be added with some difficulty.


Why not call Aden just "Middle East", since it'll be abstracted in a way, composing all British ME and African bases ?? Like Panama/East USA ??

Cheers,

M.S.


I am currently planning on adding two bases in this area - Aden (a port) and a second, inland base, that will be invulnerable to Japanese attack. This second base is an abstract representation of the British bases in Africa and the Middle East, but I have yet to decide what to call it. I might even call it 'Great Britain'. This is the base where all of the British land and air reinforcements will arrive.

_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 21
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:41:20 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I am currently planning on adding two bases in this area - Aden (a port) and a second, inland base, that will be invulnerable to Japanese attack. This second base is an abstract representation of the British bases in Africa and the Middle East, but I have yet to decide what to call it. I might even call it 'Great Britain'. This is the base where all of the British land and air reinforcements will arrive.


Sounds very good !! I think it'll add more realism even when being an abstraction.

Cheers,

M.S.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 22
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 3:50:34 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I was thinking along the line of SPI's WITP.
The entire edge could be exited. With the movement point cost determined by it's location on the map edge.

Yes, The IJN will attempt to blocade these hexes, I would. A restricted line of approach would be too easy set up ambushes.

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Post #: 23
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 6:00:29 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		I definitely like the idea. I see that you are already aware of the issues that Halsey brought up. My first thought was that Japan could use subs to great effect, but as you said, ASW would be easy too.

I have always hated that ships and LCU's appear in bases all over the map. (a British HQ arriving in Mandalay, Drum arriving at Pearl, PBY's arriving at Juneau, etc etc.). These units should arrive at the first point that they historically arrived on the map (Panama for most US ships, Karachi for most British air groups and LCU's, etc). Unless the unit was physically created in the base, historically.

I'm sure Drum wasn't created at Pearl. Have her arrive at Panama (10 days early) and allow me to deploy her.

I'd love to see a screen shot of your idea!!!

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 24
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 7:26:14 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		Will you add the Cape route in case the Jap Fanboys use floatplanes to torpedo the locks at Panama?

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Post #: 25
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 8:05:21 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:


Aden will be good simply because by removing the auto supply from here and relocating it in Aden, the British will have to ship the supplies and units to India. Will help alleviate the hordes of shipping the Allies have because they have nothing to do. (with resource centres producing supplies along with resources the game designers have basically gutted the need for merchant shipping).


why not simply reduce the daily supply input for the west coast and Karachi?

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Post #: 26
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 8:10:05 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:


Aden will be good simply because by removing the auto supply from here and relocating it in Aden, the British will have to ship the supplies and units to India. Will help alleviate the hordes of shipping the Allies have because they have nothing to do. (with resource centres producing supplies along with resources the game designers have basically gutted the need for merchant shipping).


why not simply reduce the daily supply input for the west coast and Karachi?


Thinking of doing that for west coast anyway. Big benefit will be keeping AK/APs busy moving supplies and units to India for example and not conducting combat ops.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 27
RE: Interested in opinions about map experiment - 3/2/2005 8:34:36 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Don know....Adan sounds like more work than worth....it also assumes that if India is attacked the UK would pull assets out of other active theaters to counter. I'm not sure they would be in a position to do such.

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Post #: 28
RE: Interested in opinions about a map experiment - 3/2/2005 8:55:40 PM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		Sounds like a good idea. Like others, I'm sure, I've got probably one-third or one-half of my AKs parked on the West Coast doing nothing. My few supply hubs are brimming with supplies, and I've got more AKs than I know what to do with. I am in favor of placing more stress on Allied shipping, but I don't think this will do it - at least for the Americans. Requiring the Brits to ship supply from Aden to India would take slack out of their system. For the Americans, it sounds like this would affect combat ships and APs more than AKs. Not sure where oil and fuel was produced back in the day, but if it was refined and shipped from Texas and the Gulf coast, the Panama Canal idea would tax the TKs; I've got just enough now to feel comfortable. Force me to ship from Texas and through the Canal, and I'll be feeling the pinch me thinks.

Since the Brits are so light on ship repair, you might consider giving Aden (or the invulnerable "England" base) substantial ship repair capabilities. This would allow the Brits to maintain ships and make light repairs in theater; an 80 Sys damaged BB could go to England for major work and get the ship back before 1950.

You might also consider how your idea would interface with the ship withdrawal routine. If required to withdraw a ship, the only one of which is in Aden or "England," can it be withdrawn from there? Changing the programming to that extent is inviting bugs. The alternative is to make sure that the player has enough time to get the ship back to India by the end of the month.

Great idea.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 29
RE: Interested in opinions about a map experiment - 3/2/2005 9:08:02 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Just keep in mind that it will break the AI completely so this is a Player vs Player only option.

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 30
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