RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty

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RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 8:40:58 AM

Yamato hugger

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Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

Actually, he is referring to when you said the entire staff was fired.... of which it wasn't.

I said his staff was replaced. Stop being arguementative for the sake of arguing. Name the staff officers that stayed and their positions before and after Patton arrived please.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 91

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 8:16:12 PM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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1) I was not the one who made the claim, and 2) can you name all the ones who were replaced?

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(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 92

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 8:35:45 PM

rtrapasso

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Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I do not have the Layton book - but the guy who was doing the work down in the basement ... Rochefort ... I'd certainly agree with putting him on a pedestal ! I was comparing Turner and Gerow to the senior leaders not the doers. My point with the specific Turner letter from January 1941 predicting an attack on Pearl Harbor, in conjunction with USN knowledge of 3 exercises in which Pearl was [ surprise ] attacked by carriers formed a pattern of a possible surprise attack on Pearl Harbor ... that should have removed such a possibility for the realms of UFO sightings ( i.e. .impossible events ). Unfortunately, despite this attested pattern senior leaders DID view the possibility of attack in the category of a UFO sighting.

I'd be curious as to why you think Douggie and Marshall got off the hook ! Because it does seem like they got very different treatment from Stark, Kimmel and Short and at least Douggie may have be more guilty than all the others combined.

Layton worked closely with Rochefort. His book is excellent. He didn't write anything for years because it was classified. He wrote once they lifted the TOP SECRET status of the MAGIC decrypts and made it public.

I think Dougie and Marshall got off the hook because they had money and/or political power (money does not QUITE equal political power, but sometimes one can get you the other).

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 3/10/2005 3:40:53 PM >

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Post #: 93

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 8:42:45 PM

rtrapasso

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Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

I do not have the Layton book - but the guy who was doing the work down in the basement ... Rochefort ... I'd certainly agree with putting him on a pedestal !

Instead he got the shaft. Relieved from his command and put in charge of a stateside garbage scow or somesuch because some Washington insiders wanted and got the medals he deserved.

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Post #: 94

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 9:21:15 PM

DeepSix

Posts: 395
Joined: 12/22/2004
From: Music City
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

And seriously, if you dont understand the concept, then there is no explaining it to you I guess. /shrug

You're right about that. Save your strength.

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Post #: 95

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 9:26:00 PM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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Nice one Deep.

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Post #: 96

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/10/2005 11:30:33 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
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Marshall and Mac both had congressional friends and enemies. Neither had the kind of rep they would earn later in war, certainly not enough to keep them from getting canned in Dec 41 if Roosevelt had wished. They got off the hook because you can't fire your entire military command staff in the first month of a war or else people start thinking "who put these guys in charge?" and look a level higher. You can only fire x number of people for the results of one day's *error* and Mac was decidedly in second place in terms of losses compared to PH.

Who'd have thunk it, cluster**** is not censored.

< Message edited by anarchyintheuk -- 3/10/2005 9:33:55 PM >

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 97

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/11/2005 7:35:58 AM

bradfordkay

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Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
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" Instead he got the shaft. Relieved from his command and put in charge of a stateside garbage scow or somesuch because some Washington insiders wanted and got the medals he deserved. "

Yep, apparently the guys in DC who had gotten it all wrong were jealous of his success, so they conspired to have him removed. The guy who replaced him on Nimitz' staff was the guy in DC who swore that Rochefort was wrong about Midway being "AF", Jack Redmond. Since Ernest King had swallowed Redmond's story and was thus embarrassed by Rochefort's coup (in getting it right), he had him removed from the intelligence business completely. Rochefort was shipped to San Francisco to command a dry dock. He should have received the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Maybe we should start a campaign to have him issued one now...

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 98

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/11/2005 7:46:00 AM

jwilkerson

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Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
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Yes one of my secret life time projects is to find out really why King fired Rochefort after he effectively "won the war" ... it almost seems like he got canned because he was consistently right where as the DC intel guys that King liked were consistenly wrong ... through most of May ... King continued to inisist that Nimitz' assessments were incorrect ... and when more evidence kept popping up he continued to insist. Even after the famous "water" ploy "PROVED" the Hawaii team was correct the Washington team continued to insist that Hawaii and the West Coast were probably the real targets ...

And then after all is said and done, Rochefort gets canned. At least he has finally gotten some recognition. He was onoe of the few folks so far inducted into some kind of NSA hall of fame. But there isn't enough hollering in his write up about how badly he got the shaft and from whom.

Dougie getting off in the P.I. and then later bashing people like Eichelberger, for working to make him succesful ... and Ernie King firing Rochefort for being right and "winning the war" ... those are two very sore points in my book ...

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 99

RE: Kimmel and Short: Scapegoats or Guilty - 3/11/2005 7:48:51 AM

jwilkerson

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From: Kansas
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Here is Rochefort's "NSA Hall of Honor" page ... but nada regarding his removal ...

http://www.nsa.gov/honor/honor00025.cfm

And another link describing his getting the axe.

Rochefort's firing

< Message edited by jwilkerson -- 3/10/2005 10:16:40 PM >

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 100