Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 3/29/2005 6:33:11 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
This is without a doubt--the USMC was at the hands of the US Army's Weapons Procurement Bureau, even while they were under the operational command of the US Navy. Given the Europe-first policy of the Allies, the Marines had to wait for modern weaponry to reach them until much later than the Army. They didn't get fully equipped with M1 garands until well into 1943, and Sherman tanks were in very short supply until 1944. One company of Shermans accompanied the 2nd Marine Division at Tarawa. The complement of bazookas was held up, so the USMC didn't have ANY of these weapons at Tarawa. These practice held throughout WWII.

I 've written about the Marnes ordering thousands of inferior Reising Model 50/55 SMGs in lieu of the Thompson M1928s or M1A1s. The Thompson manufacturer couldn't keep pace with demand. Those that did make it to the frontlines made it into the hands of platoon/company commanders and a few lucky others. Everyone else had the despised Reisings replaced by M1 carbines.

The truth is, it wasn't until late 1944 that the Marines had a full complement of modern weapons, two years after they took the offensive in the Pacific.

This is reflected is my USMC OOB, but dang it, it still makes me mad. The freakin Army has Shermans, and I only get Stuarts till mid-43. You want me to walk up to a Japanese bunker and say " Would you mind getting out so I can kill you, because my tanks can't touch you?"

_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 3/29/2005 4:29:34 PM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline
I think during this period, they were emphazising on their capability of their carrier and fleet building with better and more power aircraft. The priority of the small arms are neglected.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 2
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 3/31/2005 7:20:31 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
Some time ago, I wrote an article on the Garand rifle. "A New Rifle for a New War." I touched on the Marines getting the M-1. As I read, I found that many Marines were reluctant initially to give up their Springfield for this new weapon. Once they saw how the Army troops were using them so effectively, M-1s began to strangely disappear from Army troops to find themselves suddenly and mysteriously in the hands of Marines!

Let me see if it will all fit on here. If so, I will post it.

WB

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to o4r)
Post #: 3
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 3/31/2005 7:22:14 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
A NEW RIFLE FOR A NEW WAR
By Wild Bill Wilder

Only the Best!

It has been well said, "Americans love their guns!" Estimates are that the citizenry of the United States is the best armed of any country in the world. But this is not a new fad, or idea. It has always been that way, from the time of the long barreled rifles of the Colonial Army that decimated the British Red Coats up and down the coast of the Colonies during the Revolutionary War until now.

American pioneering in the field of weaponry has always been at the forefront. The desire for more powerful, practical guns led to the creation of the percussion caps, repeating arms, metal cartridges and the machine gun.

The availability of these weapons and peripherals was due in part to the huge industrial revolution in this country and mass production. Gunmakers here became legend, including John Hall, Samuel Colt, Remington and a host of others.

This firepower heritage is also evident in the Armed Forces of the United States. It is a clear-cut fact that soldiers equipped with the best weaponry available has been at the top of the priority list for all the branches of the military. In the area of small arms the push has always been toward more powerful, effective weapons for the soldiers.

Other countries might lean toward greater manpower, brilliant leadership, clever tactics or mass striking ability, but in the American army, the emphasis has been on the quality of the weapon. The soldier must have a weapon upon which he can rely or he will not do his job properly.

There have been bad moments in arms development, such as the early problems with the M-16A1 in its introduction in Vietnam, but by and large, the designers keep on until they get it right.

A Pressing Need

This was why the Ordnance Department of the Army spent forty years in pursuit of a good semi-automatic rifle for its troops. Experiments in the area began at the turn of the 20th century, but need forced the production of the Springfield Armory's single-shot bolt-action .303 rifle. It was rugged and accurate, but it was heavy and slow.

Working the bolt to eject the empty cartridge and insert a fresh one into the chamber took time. In war, time can mean life. Neither did it provide the firepower needed for a modern war of machine guns and cannons. Something more efficient was needed.

After World War One ended, ordnance experts put a high priority on the development of a high-powered, relatively lightweight weapon. It would have to be simple to maintain, light to carry and accurate, with real hitting power.

The theory was that such a weapon could double or even triple an infantry unit's firepower over a bolt action rifle in battle. It would improve the results, since theoretically a man would have to make only a slight adjustment in his sighting with a semi-automatic weapon, compared to the operation of a bolt to eject the empty cartridge and insert a new one into the chamber.

Other nations of the world had the same problem, but could not find an answer. Their solution was to provide their troops with lightweight machine guns to enhance the firepower of the rifle squad. The United States also had advocates of this idea, but they were voted down.

Large numbers of light machine guns were more expensive, complicated tactics, and could be cumbersome, thus hindering mobility. No, the answer would come in the form of an adequate semi-automatic rifle for the ordinary ground slogger.

During the 1920s this project became a top priority in the area of military research. Artillery, machine guns and the development of other ordnance took second place to this urgent need. In a streamlined army, mobility and firepower would have to go hand in hand. The specs sent out to designers was for a rifle that weighed less than 8.5 pounds; would be accurate up to 800 yards without special sighting equipment, and fired a bullet of no less than .276 caliber.

The Competition Begins

There were three promising contenders for the prize. Captain Julian S. Hatcher was an ordnance officer with an encyclopedic knowledge of gun design. John D. Pederson, an independent gun manufacturer seemed to have some promising ideas in the matter. Finally John C. Garand, an employee at the Bureau of Standards had done extensive work in the area of designing lightweight machine guns.

Eventually Hatcher dropped out of the race, but Pederson and Garand continued to design and experiment. In 1926 Garand presented a rifle to the Army, but it was found to be lacking. Seven years of work went down the drain and he began again, this time with a .30-caliber weapon.

Various tests ("The Pig Board" and "The Goat Board") groups used animals to simulate humans, anesthetized them, and ran firing tests on how the weapons destroyed flesh. After another four years of arguing and test models, it was finally decided that the rifle fabricated by Garand firing a .276 bullet would do the job. The Ordnance Department approved it unanimously.

When it reached the Chief of Staff, General Douglas MacArthur, it was completely rejected. MacArthur did not consider himself a marksman and he did not spend a lot of time shooting weapons. It was the size of the bullet that irked him.

Having been in war, he refused to give the men under his command a small bullet with which to dispatch the enemy. It would have to be a .30-caliber or nothing. Another three years of development by John Garand had been tossed by the way.

Undaunted, he went back to the "drawing board," and by the end of 1935 had come with a weapon that just might be the one. It was a gas-operated, .30 caliber, semi-automatic rifle that weighed 9.5 pounds. It used a clip that held eight rounds of ammunition. When empty, the clip was ejected and the bolt remained open for the insertion of a full one.

Its overall length was 43.6 inches and could be handled by the average soldier with relative ease. After inserting the clip and working the bolt once, the weapon could be fired again and again with only a squeeze of the trigger.

The rifle fired about 40 rounds a minute in the hands of the average soldier and up to 100 rounds a minute when used by an expert. It seemed to be the one! On January 6, 1936, it was officially classified as the "Rifle, semi-automatic, M1."

Production Wheels Grind

The wheels of the Army turn, oh so slowly! It took nearly two years to get through all the protocol and paperwork to the production line. When it finally began, in 1938, the earliest models were plagued with problems. The guns made by Garand for the testing had been carefully hand tooled. The models coming off the Springfield armory assembly line were mass-produced on older machinery that could not be properly adjusted to the fine tolerances in the M1's design.

One of the worst problems was the "seventh-round stoppage." Loaded with an eight round clip, the rifle tended to jam on the seventh round. A weak spring in the rifle itself that forced the bullets upward and then ejected the empty clip was found to be the problem. The rear sight was also a problem. It did not work well initially.

Discovering the problem to be in the outdated tooling machinery, new equipment was ordered. Rifles began to come off the lines at about 100 a day, which was still well short of the need. Even worse, the first batches of completed rifles were shipped off to England for the British Army.

During this time, the old war-horse, the NCO of the Army, continued to bad-mouth the weapon. The primary reason was that it was much easier to achieve "expert marksman" with a Springfield than with a Garand. In a day when a sergeant's top pay was $30 a month, the extra $5 was equal to one-sixth his pay. No one wanted to lose that bonus, so the weapon was talked down among the soldiers.

Brigadier General Sidney Hinds recalled, "When in 1941 we were first issued the US rifle, .30 M1 Garand, it was a gift from 'Uncle' received by most of us with varying emotions, attitude and conjectures. The old soldiers, most Experts and Sharpshooters with the Springfield said very frankly, 'Its no good.' 'You'll never hit the broad side of a barn.' 'You'll shoot up all the ammo in five minutes.' And so on, far into the night.

The Garand, in spite of the fine technical data and propaganda,' would have to be sold to the foot soldier on the ground and to really prove itself in the hard and bloody usage of battle." No one really wanted it initially. That would change with the coming of war.

In 1940, a few congressmen got wind of the ill rumors and held hearings (which they have ALWAYS loved to do) on the viability of the new weapon. The Garand was put to another test in May and won hands down over all competitors. It was then decided that the M-1 would be the rifle of the US Armed Forces.

The Marine Corps, dissatisfied with the Army's test, held one of its own in San Diego in May of that year. There had been in development in the Marine Corps another rifle, called the Johnson Rifle.

The three were put to a test together. Marine NCOs were not about to release the Springfield, so just prior to firing, a few M1 clips dropped in the sand did the job. The M1 jammed horribly, and made a very poor showing. The Marines would keep their Springfields (and their $5) for a time. It was no matter. There were not enough to go around, and the Army would gladly take them.

Not Enough to Go Around

By the beginning of World War II, the new rifle was still a scare commodity. Production had lagged far behind demand. Now with a war on, all trainees were obligated to use the old Springfield. Only troops going overseas would get the M1 Garand. Secretary of War Stimson urged General Marshall to relax production standards so that weapons could be produced more rapidly.

Marshall adamantly refused. He would stick to the old Army tradition of aiming for perfection in weaponry. This was a World War! Whatever rifle his soldiers carried, it would have to withstand the heat of the North African deserts, the sweltering humidity, and sand of the Pacific, and the mud of Western Europe. Only the best would be good enough. The British, who had lowered the standard for the Enfield Rifle, came to regret their decision. General Marshall never regretted his.

Swap, Trade or Steal

When the 1st Marine Division landed at Guadalcanal on August 7th, 1942, the standard weapon was still Springfield bolt-action rifle. There were only a few test Garands on the island. After a number of massed charges and attacks by the Japanese, Marines who had sweated blood working the bolts on those rifles were hungry for something better.


When US Army troops began to reinforce the Marines, they brought with them the new M-1 Rifle. At the risk of life and limb (worth far more than $5 a month), the Marines did everything in their power to get one.

In addition to being a very deadly weapon, the M-1 had 40 percent less recoil than the Springfield '03. It had only 72 parts compared to 92. The only tool required to take it apart and put if back together was one every soldier would have available - a .30-caliber bullet.

The pointed nose and the rim of the cartridge were all it took to take it apart and put it back together. The Marines began bartering with Japanese flags, swords and any other item of interest, trying to coax the new rifle from its user.

It was only a matter of days till the Army troops discovered the superiority of their weapon and refused any such offers. Then came the looting, the stealing of weapons in the night. GIs were forced to tie their weapons to their bunks or to their own bodies to keep them from disappearing as they slept.

US Army Colonel John George tells in his book, Shots Fired in Anger, "Leathernecks were appropriating all they could lay their hands upon by 'moonlight requisition.' In daylight, they would come over to our areas to barter souvenirs with freshly landed doughboy units; any crooked supply sergeant who had an extra M1 could get all the loot he wanted."

At last, shipments of rifles for the Marines began reaching Guadalcanal, but by now the Marines were on their way back to Australia. By early 1943, most US units were equipped with the M1. It would continue as the primary weapon for another 15 years and still see service in 3rd world countries over 50 years later.

During that period, over 4,040,000 rifles were produceded by the Springfield and Winchester Armories. Major General Julian S. Hatcher, who had been one of the original competitors for the design of the weapon, commented on its use. "It is estimated that during World War II more shots were fired with the Garand than were ever fired with the Springfield in all its history."

Today in a new millenium, many armies of the third world countries still use and praise the old M-1 Garand. Like the B-52 and the Huey helicopter, the fact that they are still used in quantity in service indicates something of the long-lasting quality of the weapon.
Sources:

There's a War to be Won, Perrett
The Encyclopedia of Weapons of WW2, Bishop


_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 4
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 4/2/2005 2:30:34 AM   
Randy

 

Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/22/2000
From: Torrance, Calif. USA
Status: offline
There has always been a joke in the Marine Corps, that the Marines get their equipment after the Army gets theirs, many times its when the Army gets rid of them! The Marines didn't get the M60A1 until the mid 70s, and the Marines got the M103A2 heavy tank when the Army didn't want it. And the Marines didn't get the M1A1 till 1990. The Marines do so much with so little!!

_____________________________

Semper Fi
Randy

The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 5
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 4/2/2005 3:01:53 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
The US Army developed a weird sort of envy towards the Marines, which resulted in the Army's recruitment slogan of "An Army of One", whatever that means. I suppose that's their response to "The Few and the Proud", but it doesn't cut it. These institutional rivalries continue to this day, and given that recruitment levels for all branches are dropping short nowadays, they have to put much effort into self-promotion and incentives.

Randy, I used WWII as an example, but the Marines now have their own Procurement Branch, do they not? Nevertheless, in keeping with their earlier history, they are looking to alternative weapons suppliers, and some foreign-made weapons are making their way into the hands of modern Marines. One example is the Belgian-designed FN LMG, which is being produced under license in the US, and is designated the M240. This is the successor to the M60, which in turn was a modified copy of the famous WWII German MG42.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/2/2005 3:13:30 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 6
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 4/3/2005 1:29:21 AM   
Randy

 

Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/22/2000
From: Torrance, Calif. USA
Status: offline
KG, you know you might be right about that. While in the past they did relay on Army hand off, I think the Marines are more unique to go out and get some items which are unique to their mission. Not just the amtrac (AAAV, now the EFV), but the Marines are I think are going foreign to get their Expeditionary Fire Support System weapon. I think it is a French mortar. In this respect I think the Marines "think outside the box" more so than the Army. Even though the Stryker is out side the box for the Army.

_____________________________

Semper Fi
Randy

The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 7
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 4/6/2005 11:04:56 AM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy

There has always been a joke in the Marine Corps, that the Marines get their equipment after the Army gets theirs, many times its when the Army gets rid of them! The Marines didn't get the M60A1 until the mid 70s, and the Marines got the M103A2 heavy tank when the Army didn't want it. And the Marines didn't get the M1A1 till 1990. The Marines do so much with so little!!


But the Marine got their own air force, ships and every other things which the Army don`t.... :P

(in reply to Randy)
Post #: 8
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 4/6/2005 2:41:08 PM   
RBWhite


Posts: 1484
Joined: 8/28/2004
From: Somerdale, New Jersey, USA
Status: offline
Randy

I like that "Marines think out of the box"

We always said years ago, The Army plans and the Marines improvise.

Rick White


(in reply to Randy)
Post #: 9
RE: The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons - 4/6/2005 2:59:15 PM   
RBWhite


Posts: 1484
Joined: 8/28/2004
From: Somerdale, New Jersey, USA
Status: offline
o4r

The Marines have always been a self contained fighting force all the way back to it's inception, all they needed was a ride to the battle.

Together with the Navy they developed the aircraft, ships and landing craft to do it.

My Father was a Marine in WWII, Iwo, Okinawa, and original Marine Occupation force in Korea. Inlisted the end of 1943, not sure what month, came back aboard the USS Guam CB2, Marine Detachment, discharged Jan. 1946

Rick White



< Message edited by RBWhite -- 4/6/2005 5:24:47 PM >

(in reply to o4r)
Post #: 10
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> The USMC Suffered Neglect in Getting New Weapons Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.766