Shoulder-fired mortars?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Shoulder-fired mortars?

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Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/2/2005 3:34:34 AM

KG Erwin

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In Gordon Rottmann's "Peleliu 1944" (Osprey, 2002), he mentions that the 1st Marine Division was supplied with 100 60mm T20 shoulder-fired mortars. I've never heard of these weapons. Anyone have any information on them? They were apparently experimental, and my best guess is that they were rejected, as were the T32 Man-Pack 37mm guns (which are in the USMC OOB).

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/6/2005 6:14:25 AM >

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RE: Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/2/2005 3:46:53 AM

Dragoon 45

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I am guessing here, but I vaguely remember a sort of rocket launcher with only HE warheads based on the HEP or HESH principle mentioned a time or two in some books I read about the Pacific. 60mm caliber sounds about right for the size since that was very close to the M-1 and M-9 bazooka, which were 2.37" if I remember correctly. I can not remember the titles of the books were I read this as it was quite a few years ago. There was also an experimental 155mm mortar used in the Pacific about that time also. The other possibility could be an early form of a recoilless gun?

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RE: Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/5/2005 5:04:00 AM

BruceAZ

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Glenn:

I have the feeling that USMC TOE's were pretty much written in concrete prior to the start of the war. I have no evidence of this but in reading some I see where it appears very consistent. Even the China Marine companies appeared consistent.

However, when the war started through mid-1943, I think ANY thing they could get their hands on was used. Look at all of the odd pieces seen at Guadalcanal or in later actions. By late 1943, America's war production and equipment stocks were at a state that 8th & I could mandate true TOE�s. Even with that said, a Division commander can easily modify his needs to fit the mission or switch various pieces of equipment for a specific need - including using some Army or Allied assets. Look at what they had in Siapan as an example.

I think it nearly impossible to identify a true, consistent OOB for the Marines in WW2. After the war, I remember reading they stayed somewhat consistent until the start of the Korean War when it started again as they initially drew on WW2 stocks before upgrading to later advanced assets. Somewhere in this forum I remember someone writing about how many commanders "sand-bagged" TOE reports to insure their units had an edge or obtain a small reserve.

I applaud your efforts to give us an accurate OOB for "my boys."

Those crazy guys would use anything they could their hands on if it gave them an advantage! I am reading about the tragic fight of the 4th Marines at Bataan and how their weapons mostly dated to WW1.

Recon
Semper Fi

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RE: Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/5/2005 7:00:18 AM

KG Erwin

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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Thanks for your comments, BruceAZ.

The study of the development of the USMC from 1941 to 1945 has fascinated me for quite some time now, and it was the one OOB in SPWaW that I spent most of my time on reworking. For 8.2 & 8.3, I know I drove Bryan nuts with my frequent updates to the files I sent him, but it has been a labor of love. As a matter of fact, even after 8.3 was released I kept on tweaking that OOB until just about a month ago, when my "final" version was completed.

The fact that there were several weapons loadout variations for each successive TOE revision allowed me to put in at least three different D, E and F-series rifle squads, plus variations of the different Raider & Para units that were already there. My thanks go to Bryan "Marauder Mel" & Stuart "Major Destruction" for their previous work, which I just built upon.

When I read about those T20s, it threw me for a loop, but I don't think I'll do yet another revision to include these unusual weapons.

If you don't have it already, the "bible" for USMC TOEs is Gordon Rottman's "US Marine Corps World War II Order of Battle". I got it through the Military Book Club, and they still have it in stock. This was my primary reference guide for the updates I did. In actual fact, Mr. Rottman deserves credit as an indirect contributor to SPWaW.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/5/2005 7:04:13 AM >

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RE: Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/5/2005 8:20:48 PM

Riun T

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hey, Gunny have an interest in some of the more exotic toy that came out of WW2 myself,I was just remembering a Bull*hit session my grampa and i had a couple of years ago. he was with British forces in north africa, and told me him and some Aussie reccies were put in charge of a very strange initiative going on in their Battalion. I guess the higher ups where taking inventions and engineering suggestions from the front line troops. He got to see,organize, and most of all test some of the Hoeky contraptions the field troops were making do with. Most of it he said was excentric unversitile garbage,like the crossbow grenade projector,plausable in thought till the D/u grenade made an unexpected jump of the bowstring and deposited the thank god for preplanning delete grenade in the opperators lap. Or taking a field grade howitzer to any firing position but grounded??? ??? I got a kick out of the flying disk grenades,or the inprovised hammer thrown bomb!!? he said this was about 1942 so that goes well with the mention of the troops using anything they could get their hands on to alter! he said some Assies came up with a backpack mounted 2in. infantry mortar that could be fired whilst the pack was worn!! and a shoulder fired Northop projector that seemed to fit the bill but never saw any kind of issue. most of the good stuff was transfered as what he called Posted suggestions for experimental squad and platoon size operations. All these suggestions and samples where never given the serious consideration at that early time in the war which was starting to change when it took a lowly sargent in a vehicle recovery unit to come up with the dragons tooth and hedgerow breach tools for the forces in action at the time Excellant work in my thinking. How many civil engineers,handymen,electrisions,auto mechanics and sutch do u think the draft grabed? RT

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RE: Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/6/2005 5:01:10 AM

steelpanther

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I believe that the T20 was an experimental grenade launcher type weapon that worked and looked somewhat like the PIAT. I was less bulky than the M9 (not to mention M1), The ammo was smaller and the platoon could carry more. It never when into mass production because of the availability of the rifle grenade that had a greater range and didnt need the tube. Several units in the pacific area got issued an initial lot (mostly because production started before they were officially adopted). Once the ammo was used they were discarded, therefore you probably wont find an official listing of it because it was never accepted. I hope my explanation is correct and helpful, I got the info from my grandfather 20some years ago, I have a picture of it somewhere but I can not find it right off. He surved on Okinawa after the initial assault and his platoon was given 3 or 4 (the total allotment for his company) because no one wanted to carry them.

Ken

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RE: Shoulder-fired mortars? - 4/6/2005 6:08:24 AM

KG Erwin

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Thanks for that info, steelpanther. I guess we're OK with leaving them out of the database, then.

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