Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

I don't see anything wrong with Rufe shooting down B-17. Rufe has 2 20MM cannon. Want to lose less bombers? Fly them at 25K like they're supposed to. There'll be a lot less fighters up there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadja

Quite putting down float planes. What sank John Waynes PT in "They Were Expendable" it was a float plane, not a cruiser,destroyer or a betty bomber, but a float plane. If it is good enough to stop John Wayneo(1941) its good enough to shoot down a B-17.
Sadja

quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Maybe you guys should employ the that famous hindsight and reach the same conclusion that air commanders took years to reach, in every theater ... unescorted daylight raids over fighter defended targets are a bad idea. Especially at the low altitudes these raids are being assigned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

what was the experience level of the 17's?

exactly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

They are in the 60s. But morale is low now because they´ve been slaughtered for a while now. They´re attacking between 6.000 and 19.000 feet and my CAP is always on 15.000 feet. My daitais are high experienced but I think not only the experience should count here when attacking these monsters with FLOAT PLANES, repeat FLOAT PLANES. Why are we talking about leaders, experience or moral? Look at the results folks!! If float planes were so effective against B17, hey, why didn´t the German put their 500 best pilots of the Luftwaffe into some float planes and took down 200 of a 500 B17 raid over Germany! We´re talking about Rufes and the German had enough problems with Fw190 and Me109 to kill the bombers off.

CASTOR. You are absolutely right, the results ARE rediculous. The B-17's are fully trained and have some experiance if they are in the 60's, and it's not like these pilots need to refine their air-to-air tactics and skills. 60's should be ample for holding pretty tight formations, which exposes any aircraft attacking to massed defensive fire. More than enough to deal with most Japanese fighters with their light armament and construction no matter how "experianced" they are. This is NOT a dogfight! It's a flying porcupine, with the Japanese trying to get close enough to bite without getting a facefull of quils.

The system wasn't that good to start with, and with the additional hamstringing of Allied capabilities that the Japanese Fanboys have lobbied into the game, it's gotten worse.
The "kill ratio" you are reporting is way beyond ahistorical. It's idiotic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Well the IJ planes are around 50% better in experience and their morale is probably 100% better. Hold formation or not, but if gunner Joe is wiping his nose half the time due to low morale the porcupine just isn't going to be performing to standards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Well the IJ planes are around 50% better in experience and their morale is probably 100% better. Hold formation or not, but if gunner Joe is wiping his nose half the time due to low morale the porcupine just isn't going to be performing to standards.

CHARLES This is really lame. First, in the examples used, it was clearly stated that the beginning morale of the heavy bombers was excellent...., it was only later after the continued idiotic combat results that the morale fell. Secondly, no matter how unhappy a crewman might be about going up, shooting at people who are trying to kill you is an act of self-preservation, not morale. The porcupine's quills are still sharp and dangerous even if the animal in question is a bit depressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

The fault seems to be in both experience and altitude... I wonder if range to target also plays a factor.. If my plane is hit and takes a feathered engine at max range getting home would be harder in the real world.. I wonder again about Frags statement about altitude and moral... makes me want to see the cambat calculations

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Well the IJ planes are around 50% better in experience and their morale is probably 100% better. Hold formation or not, but if gunner Joe is wiping his nose half the time due to low morale the porcupine just isn't going to be performing to standards.

CHARLES This is really lame. First, in the examples used, it was clearly stated that the beginning morale of the heavy bombers was excellent...., it was only later after the continued idiotic combat results that the morale fell. Secondly, no matter how unhappy a crewman might be about going up, shooting at people who are trying to kill you is an act of self-preservation, not morale. The porcupine's quills are still sharp and dangerous even if the animal in question is a bit depressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Well the IJ planes are around 50% better in experience and their morale is probably 100% better. Hold formation or not, but if gunner Joe is wiping his nose half the time due to low morale the porcupine just isn't going to be performing to standards.

CHARLES This is really lame. First, in the examples used, it was clearly stated that the beginning morale of the heavy bombers was excellent...., it was only later after the continued idiotic combat results that the morale fell. Secondly, no matter how unhappy a crewman might be about going up, shooting at people who are trying to kill you is an act of self-preservation, not morale. The porcupine's quills are still sharp and dangerous even if the animal in question is a bit depressed.

Yes, correct. Morale shouldn´t be the point in defending your life. I think it´s enough to have a check if the bombers fly when morale is low (but what do they do? desert?). When you look at my ac loss list you can see that the B17 is the leader in the A2A losses. I started in 5/42 and I´m now in 9/42, the bomber raids started in 7/42 and now I have shot down 200 !! B17 in A2A, mostly with RUFES. Now folks, after 4 pages of discussion - aren´t there people who can see that there´s something going wrong? Hey, where´s Ron? Is ASW the only discussion he wants to participate?

Now in 9/42 my Tonies are doing the big part of the job and getting of course better results, because they are armored and take less losses, but I could also "win" this air battle over Gili Gili if I would have more than 2 daitais with each 9 Rufes. I´ll place another 72 Tonies at Gili Gili to get an air balance which is so high the AI stops attacking that airfield. Otherwise it will lose and lose and lose and lose,.... B17.

And as I´ve already said: This result is not because too low exp., altitude or 500 fighters on my side. NO, everything is just normal. But is the result?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Well the IJ planes are around 50% better in experience and their morale is probably 100% better. Hold formation or not, but if gunner Joe is wiping his nose half the time due to low morale the porcupine just isn't going to be performing to standards.

CHARLES This is really lame. First, in the examples used, it was clearly stated that the beginning morale of the heavy bombers was excellent...., it was only later after the continued idiotic combat results that the morale fell. Secondly, no matter how unhappy a crewman might be about going up, shooting at people who are trying to kill you is an act of self-preservation, not morale. The porcupine's quills are still sharp and dangerous even if the animal in question is a bit depressed.

Yes, correct. Morale shouldn´t be the point in defending your life. I think it´s enough to have a check if the bombers fly when morale is low (but what do they do? desert?). When you look at my ac loss list you can see that the B17 is the leader in the A2A losses. I started in 5/42 and I´m now in 9/42, the bomber raids started in 7/42 and now I have shot down 200 !! B17 in A2A, mostly with RUFES. Now folks, after 4 pages of discussion - aren´t there people who can see that there´s something going wrong? Hey, where´s Ron? Is ASW the only discussion he wants to participate?

Now in 9/42 my Tonies are doing the big part of the job and getting of course better results, because they are armored and take less losses, but I could also "win" this air battle over Gili Gili if I would have more than 2 daitais with each 9 Rufes. I´ll place another 72 Tonies at Gili Gili to get an air balance which is so high the AI stops attacking that airfield. Otherwise it will lose and lose and lose and lose,.... B17.

And as I´ve already said: This result is not because too low exp., altitude or 500 fighters on my side. NO, everything is just normal. But is the result?

Do you consider defending with Rufe's normal? The Rufe isn't a whole lot worse than a Zero is it? Before you answer that, I don't think their somewhat lessened amount of maneuverability will hurt them when their targets are B17's. It's not in the floatplane category, but the fighter-floatplane category if I recall. Frankly I'm somewhat amused to use Alf's as a small addition to some of my bombing runs in China, but they could do it. 200 losses in 60 days is it? So the mighty Rufe's and compatriots have inflicted 3.03 losses a day? I'd like to have empathy for you, only I've run "extremely" fresh Nells at 15,000ft with no air opposition on Clark before, and they got so damaged that their morale shot down to like 20 (on the "surprise" first turn no less). So that's like 2 weeks out of the war from mere damage with maybe 1 or 2 losses in planes/men. What I'm trying to tell you is that it isn't the B17 which is somehow structurally weak, or that the Rufe is some uber-plane, but only that if you think that is fairly wild I'm not sure you've seen much of the aerial results.

************************
No, I don´t consider defending with Rufes normal. The case was that I stationed them there before I started to build up the airfield. And I didn´t withdraw them as the first B17 raids came in, so they fought long time alone against the B17. And with that uber results. I don´t know the mvr of the Rufe and can´t look it up right now, but what do you think of speed? I think they should have problems even to close in when being on CAP. Perhaps I don´t understand you but what do you mean with "I'm not sure you've seen much of the aerial results"? I´m looking at all combat animations and I think I can really say what results I get. And no FOW with the ac loss list!
************************

Also note that for all of those screenshots you did not post one of Rufe's taking on B17's by themselves as you seem to think they can do. I see some pretty high losses by Rufe's, but to what? Your two best Rufe pilots, if they're so disproportional, are averaging a kill every other mission, with the worser ones listed with a lower ratio still. No exactly a big deal. You also don't have 200 B17 losses according to your screenshots, but 187, of which only 173 are to aerial opposition.

***************************
I just can repeat my self. At the beginning of the attack ONLY Rufes were engaging the heavies. And if you look at my screenshots you can see that 173 were shot down A2A - most of them by RUFES, on their own! Now I´m in 9/42 and I have destroyed FAR MOR than 200 B17 A2A. If you consider that normal, okay, not my problem, I think it´s just weird. And again: I´m playing the Japanese! And I think my fighters (not just the Rufe) is too good in shooting down heavies or the heavies can´t take what they should be able to take.
***************************


I just took the time to go over your AAR's located on page one. I counted all the B17's destroyed only (naturally the Rufe's could got some B24's too). NONE of those destructions, much less any damage was done by Rufe's because you didn't have any of those 2 months AAR's that you picked out, with Rufe's in them. I counted 39 B17's destroyed. Subtract that from the 173 B17's lost in the air and the MOST the uber-Rufe's shot down was 134. I'm betting they didn't shoot down half of that.

****************************
My Rufes never engaged an other plane that the B17, so all kills are accounted for B17. Just think about what you´re saying! Okay let´s say they shot down half of the 134 like you mentioned: 67!!!!! Is that what you think would be possible by 18 Rufes? 18 Rufes in I don´t know, a few weeks, shot down 67 B17! Hey those Daitais would be the heroes of the war! But what do you think could do better planes? George, Jack, SHINDEN?
****************************

We could talk about B24 losses too, but as your screenshot was sorted by A2A losses the B24 is so low that it don't show up (obviously below 19).

*Sidenote: My counting of the B17 losses on page one may not be correct due to the fact that I might have accidentally counted Tom Hunter's trial.

It is true that there may be as high as three of the B17's destroyed that were due to flak, but considering how the total B17's lost to flak have totaled 3 it's more a bother than anything, and whether they came from the rufe stronghold is another question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson






Speed matters.


Rufe
Performance:
Maximum speed 235 kt at 5,000 m
Cruising speed 160 kt
1 knots = 1.15077945 mph

So 160*1.15077945 = 184 Rufe cruising speed in mph

And 235*1.15077945 = 270 Rufe max speed in mph



B17
Maximum speed 263 mph at 25,000 feet, 300 mph at 30,000 feet (war emergency).
Cruising speed 150 mph at 25,000 feet.


And for comparison


FW190 ( which DID shoot down some B17s )
PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 426 mph.
Cruising speed: 280 mph.


Also note that in the game most Japanese fighters Nates, Oscar, Zeros .. can fly at or above 30k.

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Speed matters.


Rufe
Performance:
Maximum speed 235 kt at 5,000 m
Cruising speed 160 kt
1 knots = 1.15077945 mph

So 160*1.15077945 = 184 Rufe cruising speed in mph

And 235*1.15077945 = 270 Rufe max speed in mph



B17
Maximum speed 263 mph at 25,000 feet, 300 mph at 30,000 feet (war emergency).
Cruising speed 150 mph at 25,000 feet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi Frag,

I know they are not made of Kryptonite. Aluminium right

Here are examples from AAR's in AAR section:

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 38

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
61 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 11

Aircraft Attacking:
All B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet

--------------------

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 18

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 10 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet

---------------------

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 22

Allied aircraft - this attack was completely turned away!
B-17E Fortress x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Day Air attack on Wewak , at 52,81 - again a weak B-17 attack is fended of.
By Tonys this time, the Daitai at Wewak now got 14 kills.

Japanese aircraft
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 18

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 6 destroyed, 5 damaged

------------------------

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88 - the heavies that went to Rabaul were again fended of!

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 19

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 9 destroyed, 11 damaged

------------------

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88 - then Liberators from Lunga joined in and received a rough handling as well. Rabaul got away all
but unscatched!

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 19

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 25 destroyed, 19 damaged

Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 6000 feet

----------------------

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88 - once again the B-17s are turned away!

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 20

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 5 destroyed, 7 damaged

----------------

The above are taken from PZB's game vs David. I know Freeboy has commented on his B29's getting mauled unescorted during daytime against Zeta.

As say bud its not a moan just I think it may not be accurate. I know they are not invincible hence the 8th and Pac airforces decided to escort them but even when unescorted they were near enough 1:1 losses.

Anything else I can provide?

Regards,

Steven

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And as others have said before..many times: "Ahistorical use will cause ahistorical results". Fly the heavies above 15 000 ft, preferably in 20-25k and there is remarkable difference.

BTW, that might actually be a good "house rule" in some PBEM games.

Cheers,

M.S.

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

4. When the losses are bad I remind myself how much it sucks to be a B-17 crew by watching twelve'o'clock high. Then I stop sending unescorted forts into hornet nests.

quote:

No, I don´t consider defending with Rufes normal. The case was that I stationed them there before I started to build up the airfield. And I didn´t withdraw them as the first B17 raids came in, so they fought long time alone against the B17. And with that uber results. I don´t know the mvr of the Rufe and can´t look it up right now, but what do you think of speed? I think they should have problems even to close in when being on CAP. Perhaps I don´t understand you but what do you mean with "I'm not sure you've seen much of the aerial results"? I´m looking at all combat animations and I think I can really say what results I get. And no FOW with the ac loss list!

quote:

I just can repeat my self. At the beginning of the attack ONLY Rufes were engaging the heavies. And if you look at my screenshots you can see that 173 were shot down A2A - most of them by RUFES, on their own! Now I´m in 9/42 and I have destroyed FAR MOR than 200 B17 A2A. If you consider that normal, okay, not my problem, I think it´s just weird. And again: I´m playing the Japanese! And I think my fighters (not just the Rufe) is too good in shooting down heavies or the heavies can´t take what they should be able to take.

quote:

My Rufes never engaged an other plane that the B17, so all kills are accounted for B17. Just think about what you´re saying! Okay let´s say they shot down half of the 134 like you mentioned: 67!!!!! Is that what you think would be possible by 18 Rufes? 18 Rufes in I don´t know, a few weeks, shot down 67 B17! Hey those Daitais would be the heroes of the war! But what do you think could do better planes? George, Jack, SHINDEN?

quote:

The reason why only a few were destroyed by flak is that my fighters most of the time fight off the attack after they have shot down a couple of bombers and the I think 48 BG breaks off the attack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And as others have said before..many times: "Ahistorical use will cause ahistorical results". Fly the heavies above 15 000 ft, preferably in 20-25k and there is remarkable difference.

BTW, that might actually be a good "house rule" in some PBEM games.

Cheers,

M.S.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And as others have said before..many times: "Ahistorical use will cause ahistorical results". Fly the heavies above 15 000 ft, preferably in 20-25k and there is remarkable difference.

BTW, that might actually be a good "house rule" in some PBEM games.

Cheers,

M.S.

And how should I teach AI to do that? AI is attacking me not I´m bombing the AI! I know: "Play PBEM"!

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Yes, correct. Morale shouldn´t be the point in defending your life. I think it´s enough to have a check if the bombers fly when morale is low (but what do they do? desert?). When you look at my ac loss list you can see that the B17 is the leader in the A2A losses. I started in 5/42 and I´m now in 9/42, the bomber raids started in 7/42 and now I have shot down 200 !! B17 in A2A, mostly with RUFES. Now folks, after 4 pages of discussion - aren´t there people who can see that there´s something going wrong? Hey, where´s Ron? Is ASW the only discussion he wants to participate?

And as I´ve already said: This result is not because too low exp., altitude or 500 fighters on my side. NO, everything is just normal. But is the result?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl



I've concluded that the only way you could get a lot of vocal support in this forum would have been to show that the losses of Betty's and Nell's were rediculously inflated. Then you would hear some screaming. You have pointed out a legitimate problem and concern in the way the game plays out..., and been greeted with an extrodinary number of lame and silly rationalizations to excuse the foolishness. You are faced with and uphill slog on muddy ground just to get most of the "FanBoys" to admit their MIGHT be a problem with anything in the game that produces pro-Japanese results.