ENG units & TOE

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> ENG units & TOE

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ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 10:52:30 PM

DerJimbo

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Joined: 3/21/2005
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Only up to mid-March '42 in my game against the AI, and I have a question. Do the TOEs of ENG units ever change (i.e., increase)? I am especially interested to know if this happens with respect to the aviation support available in a base force unit. As it is, I have a bunch of ENG units with 30 aviation support scattered around the map, but if I want to put a fighter squadron and a bomber squadron on the same island, I have to "double up" my base force units to get the necessary aviation support to keep both flying or risk having my base overwhelmed by a retaliatory attack with a third of my planes stuck on the ground for lack of maintenance.

Also, I have a few base force units that come in the game with 90 or more aviation support, but the TOE of the unit says it should only have 30. If I put such a unit in a location where it might see heavy air combat activity and the enemy bombs the base, causing casualties among the aviation support personnel in that unit, will it rebuild to 90, or will all losses I suffer above the unit's TOE be lost permanently? Because if the answer is that I lose them permanently, I'm not going to be willing to use them in places like Port Moresby, for example, where I would otherwise put them (because 1. I need the air support to tangle with the Japs in Rabaul, and 2. the base force's AA would come in handy when Rabaul hits back).

Anyone have any insights/advice to offer?

Post #: 1

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 10:56:35 PM

Mike Solli

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Read 15.4 Base Force Replacements of the manual, page 198. That'll answer your question.

(in reply to DerJimbo)

Post #: 2

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 11:09:42 PM

Feinder

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TOEs are frequently wrong.

And be advised that only BFs of the COMPUTER will grow. Yours will not (despite whatever is said in the manual).

-F-

_____________________________

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Post #: 3

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 11:15:48 PM

Mike Solli

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Well, you just made my day.

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Post #: 4

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 11:32:10 PM

DerJimbo

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I thought that the manual was somewhat confusing on this point; that's why I asked. The way I read it, Feinder's response was the way BF upgrades worked--only the computer player got them, and it was a function of the size of the airfield at the base in question. Which seems rather unfair, if you think about it. When the Japs take Singapore, for example, they just stick a small base force unit in there, and--hey, presto!--it grows, and they get all the air support that they could ever need.

Meantime, I've got fighter groups with 72 aircraft apiece in the SW Pacific, and not nearly enough air support to use them effectively. What makes it even more frustrating is that I've accumulated almost 1,000 air support points in my replacement pool, and they just sit there not doing me any good.

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Post #: 5

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 11:39:46 PM

Mike Solli

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It's interesting, but I pretty much have the reverse problem as the Japanese. Lots of air support and not nearly enough air units to take advantage of it. Actually, it's pretty nice. I can have the capability available at critical bases. When those nasty Allies rear their ugly heads, I can move my invincible daitai to the base to blast them back to Hades.

(in reply to DerJimbo)

Post #: 6

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/21/2005 11:49:41 PM

Feinder

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TOEs only show the max build for at-start for a unit (does not include upgrades). So if a unit shows "sound detectors" as an item of the TOE, you might still upgrade to a radar set. Also TOEs for split units (/A, /B/, etc) cannot be trusted.

A (player) BF that starts at 30 air-support, will always grow back to 30 air support. If a player BF starts at 90, it will grow back to 90 (eventually), regardless of what the TOE says. So yes, that 90-point BF in Mandalay to start is worth saving.

[insert comment advocating the salvage BFs from the Phillipines here, but I won't in order save Frag the coronary]

You can get a shot-up BF (with destroyed or damaged air-support squads), to repair MUCH faster if you stack them in a non-malaria hex with a command HQ and a bunch of supplies.
a. Bunches of supplies - you need 2x the supplies requrired (number must be "white"), in order to draw replacements. You can also draw replacements from the supplies of base that you have a supply link to (like a road), that has 2x supplies (albeit at a slower rate).
b. Command HQ - Command HQs (like SWPac, SoPac, etc) are supply magnets. That helps you build squads. Plus the HQ helps you build squads faster anyways.
c. Non-Malaria - If you're in a malaria base, you're spending supplies to compat fatigue, so you're spending less on building new squads. It can be done (draw replacements in a malaria base), but it's much slower.

Put your damaged BFs in a big city with their assigned command HQ and lots of supplies, and they'll fill out very quickly.

The computer's auto-grow ability is because it's not smart enought to move it's BFs around effectively. It probably knows to put a BF on an AF that needs one. But it's not smart enough (or may not have the units available), to put BF(90) at a AF(4) or whatever. The solution was to simply let the computer's BFs grow to the size of the base.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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Post #: 7

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/22/2005 12:00:36 AM

DerJimbo

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Thanks. I'm not exactly happy that my BF's won't ever grow, but at least I know now how to nurse them back to health if they get shot up.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 8

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/22/2005 12:46:38 AM

Martti

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

A (player) BF that starts at 30 air-support, will always grow back to 30 air support. If a player BF starts at 90, it will grow back to 90 (eventually), regardless of what the TOE says. So yes, that 90-point BF in Mandalay to start is worth saving.

I don't believe it works like that. A unit can start the game overstrength, but if the unit suffers losses it will only grow back to the TOE strength.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 9

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/22/2005 8:01:50 AM

Ian R

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Der Jimbo,

Here is one approach to the question of saving early war bases. [Another is to save splinters of everything you can with sub transports as they might all come in handy...]

While saving some of the better base forces in the early period of catastrophres will stand you in good stead in Northern Australia, PNG and Assam, at least in in early mid 42, their utility falls away later and its not worth the effort to save the small base forces.

Units such as PAF, MAF, the two DAFs (120 to 150 av support in size) are worth the effort, and there are some others which are 90 in size maybe worth it, but eventually the RAF/RAAF air groups and USAAF air forces HQ start arriving in overwhelming strength and any treasure paid to save a size 30 base is not well spent.

Whatever you do though do not move the 360 av support US pre war bases.

Typically the USAAF HQs (eg 5th airforce in SWpac ) come with paired Aviation regiment and base forces which can fully develop a base, and the av reg alone has 270 av support. Each HQ is fed multiple pairs of av regiments/baseforces over time (ie by April 43 there are at least about 8 such pairs), and the RAF Group version comes with much with the same capability. You don't need anything else at a base. The US also gets a stream of other naval base forces and air base forces (bigger than the pre war model) starting at about the beginning of 43.

Essentially all those pre war bases with an av support of 30 are best left where they are. If you need a big base early war, co-opt the 11th Airforce with its associated base force and av regiment from the North Pacific.

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Post #: 10

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/22/2005 8:10:09 AM

Ian R

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PS - I forgot to count the 14th airforce which arrives in Chung King. and the 10th which arrives in Karachi.

So you at least, by April 43, have 51, 52, 53, 71, 72, ?73, 10, 11, 13 and 14, 5 RAF groups - 221 -225, and 9th RAAF group.

Make that 16 instead of 8.

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Post #: 11

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/22/2005 8:54:50 AM

Jim D Burns

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Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Essentially all those pre war bases with an av support of 30 are best left where they are. If you need a big base early war, co-opt the 11th Airforce with its associated base force and av regiment from the North Pacific.

I have to somewhat disagree with this statement. The Naval base forces all have some CD guns attached to them and can provide some very limited anti-invasion firepower at some of your backwater island bases where you probably wouldn't normally place a valuable base force.

The USN base forces in and around the PI are probably the best since it's easy to fill up their TOE early and get the extra 40 squads as some minimal defense ability as well.

The pure AAA air force base forces I agree are probably not worth it unless it's an emergency, but the naval ones are actually great for minor garrisons to keep the Japanese from grabbing a base with less than a regiment.

You can also pile several in PM early on to help keep an early invasion there at bay, then spread them out through small islands around Pago Pago and Louganville later after you've fortified PM and brought in some reinforcements. Of course saving enough of them to make a difference is the hard part, 1 or 2 groups of Nells can put most on the ocean floor as has happened in my current PBEM game.

Jim

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Post #: 12

RE: ENG units & TOE - 6/22/2005 2:30:26 PM

Montbrun