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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> 55th Division Page: [1]
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55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:08:56 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Just a minor OOB thingy.

From reading Allen's book on Burma he says that IJ 55th Division only started the campaign in Burma wih 2 and not 3 regiments. Should this be reflected in the game by a lower starting amount of force in the division?

(it was later reinforced by another regiment in mid 42)

Steven
Post #: 1
RE: 55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:14:28 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The Japanese player can divide the unit if he wants and only send 2 to Burma.
The options are
1. Have the unit full size and allow it to divide
2. Have the unit under TOE and allow it to build
3. Have the unit broken into Brigades but now it can never combine. (You can have the A/B/C components on map at start.

It does appear to be too large if sent directly to Burma. If the Japanese player waits till after he takes Singapore it does not have any impact. (I always wait for Singapore before moving past Tavoy but I know some players go directly to Rangoon.)

I think option 2 is the most reasonable. (The unit would actually be full size but just have 1/3 disabled on Dec 7 1941)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/27/2005 5:15:28 PM >

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RE: 55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:18:02 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi Mog,

I agree they are the options avialble I just wondered whether it was worth it being hardcoded to be 2/3 of its full size and allow it to grow.

Regards,

Steven

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RE: 55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:19:42 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, It depends. What was the other Bde doing in the time before it went to rejoin division? If we need 2 units it is best to just leave 55th alone. I think that is why division is full strength.

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RE: 55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:24:22 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
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Status: offline 		I understand. Just a thought like I say

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RE: 55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:38:05 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It depends. What was the other Bde doing in the time before it went to rejoin division? If we need 2 units it is best to just leave 55th alone. I think that is why division is full strength.

I want to say it was used for one of those units designated by the commander's name that was so prevalent at the beginning of the war. I have that information at home. I'll dig it up when I get out of work.

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RE: 55th Division - 6/27/2005 5:45:54 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		only practical way to do it would be to remove the 55th from the OOB and replace with the 3 component regiments. South Seas regiment historically stayed in the Solomons IIRC.

However this would create the problem of not allowing the 55th to 'replace' the lost regiment for future ops. Its a small fudge but i'd say leave the 55th as is.

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 5:16:00 AM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Nik's right. The third regiment of the 55th Div was the 144th regiment. It was the majority of the South Seas Detachment, along with a mountain gun battalion, and a company of engineers, AA, recce, and some supporting units.

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 5:35:42 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, So I vote we remove the South Seas Detachment. If the Japanese player wants it he can split a division. Or we can leave it alone because the 55th Div replace the Regt. Where did that Regt come from?

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 1:28:19 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		If this is the case I agree with Mog. As things stand at present we have a full division + an extra regiment.

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 4:24:18 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		but i like having the South Seas Detachment. Its so historical!!!!

I like to land at Buna and march overland on the quest to take Port Morosby....my brave elite troops singing the whole time....

A marchin we will go
A marchin we will go
High ho...Banzai YO!
A marchin we will go!

Then...after the epic march across some of the worst terrain imaginable we arrive to offer battle! only to find PM stuffed to the gills with 3 Divisions worth of troops.....its almost like they knew we were coming!

GO FIGURE!


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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 6:37:32 PM   
Mike Solli


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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Is there any way to change the MTOE of the 55th Div to reduce it by one regiment? I like the South Seas Detachment as well.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 6/28/2005 6:38:09 PM >

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 6:45:02 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		you might be able to but the point already made was, if/when SSD is destroyed, having had the 55th INF permanantly stunted wont allow it to "replace" the lost regiment. Thats why i've always just let sleeping Kyoto Dragons lie. Ok....the Japanese get an extra LCU but it's not a game breaker...besides....its a cute LCU.



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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 11:06:34 PM   
mogami


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Status: offline 		Hi, Where did the Regt the 55th got in 1942 come from? Is there a missing unit that both accounts for 55th being full size and SSD existing as independant unit?
I think the new regt added was the 112th Inf Regt.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/28/2005 11:11:35 PM >

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 11:11:52 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Where did the Regt the 55th got in 1942 come from? Is there a missing unit that both accounts for 55th being full size and SSD existing as independant unit?


Do you have a regimental number? I'll search around to see what I can find.

By the way, the mountain artillery bn was one of the battalions of the divisional artillery regiment, which was a mountain artillery regiment. Do you know if that was replaced in 1942 also?

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 11:39:55 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		Not sure. I gleaned the origin of the South Seas detachment from Bergerud a while ago. Dont know if any source i have has info on the 55th "replacing" the detached regiment. I'll check Allen and see if I can find a reference to the 55th 'filling' back out.

I was just speaking in general previously that if the SSD became peramently detached or destroyed it would only make sense that the Japanese would have replaced or reassigned another regiment to the 55th to complete the division.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 6/28/2005 11:40:39 PM >

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 11:44:52 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Not sure. I gleaned the origin of the South Seas detachment from Bergerud a while ago. Dont know if any source i have has info on the 55th "replacing" the detached regiment. I'll check Allen and see if I can find a reference to the 55th 'filling' back out.

I was just speaking in general previously that if the SSD became peramently detached or destroyed it would only make sense that the Japanese would have replaced or reassigned another regiment to the 55th to complete the division.


Did the Japanese ever permanently replace detached/destroyed elements of a division? Offhand, I don't think so. The units tended to get mixed up more and more as the war dragged on. I recall seeing OOBs of later war battles where the Japanese had bits and pieces of many units.

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RE: 55th Division - 6/28/2005 11:52:46 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		I would have to think they did, given the fact that the 55th Division was one of the principle formations used for U-Go (Imphal)

It would be a division that gets shattered...it gets rebuilt or disbanded


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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 12:28:46 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		I believe it started with 112 and 143 regiments and its 144 was of course The South Seas Detachment

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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 3:01:27 PM   
tsimmonds


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Status: offline 		Here's what I have:

quote:

The 144 Infantry and elements of the supporting units of the 55 Division were detached from the rest of the division and were organized as the HORII South Seas Detached Force in November 1941.....In August [1942] it was transferred to New Guinea where, joined by the 41 Infantry, it was virtually destroyed in the Buna campaign. Remnants were withdrawn, reinforced and reformed and in the latter part of 1945 rejoined the 55 Division in Burma.


This is from the Japanese Armed Forces Order of Battle 1937-1945 by W. Victor Madej. His source was the 1400-page OOB of the Japanese Armed Forces, 5th edition, issued by the Military Intelligence Division of the US Department of the Army just after the war ended. As this is based on intelligence gathered during the war, who can say how accurate it is (probably pretty good).

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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 4:21:58 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		55 (Zentsuji) division: 112, 143 and 144 regiments.

Regimental conscription district and/or location depots:

112 => Takamatsu
143 => Tokushima
144 => Kochi

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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 5:07:16 PM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Well then it appears the 55th should be reduced by 1/3. That will make the on map Japanese strength correct., Allow the SSD to exist, and allow the 55th to rebuild (but at expense of experiance and supply cost)

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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 5:08:23 PM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I think thats what CHS did though i'm not sure if it will rebuild (as it should, I agree)



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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 5:39:12 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Based on what i've been reading i'd say it makes sense to do that

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RE: 55th Division - 6/29/2005 10:04:35 PM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, That was easy.

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Post #: 25
RE: 55th Division - 6/30/2005 12:46:36 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Coz there was no TJ spouting

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