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RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/31/2006 12:44:47 PM   
amwild

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks. So now I know a smidgen about the Kriegsmarine grid system.

For MWIF, I have trouble seeing how to incorporate it. Doing so would add historical verisimilitude, which is a big plus. There is the problem of it overwhelming everything else though. And just doing tidbits of it seems inappropriate. The strength of the system is its all inclusive solution to locating specific points in the ocean in a system that is easier to grasp than longitude and latitude. Displaying the numbers in a few locations would look weird (IMO). It also would call into question the MWIF map of the world - if it didn't align perfectly with the Kriegsmarine map.

I'll keep it in mind, for I like its historical links.



Steve,

As long as you can find a map somewhere that shows all the Kriegsmarine double-letter boxes and their orientation relative to the world's landmasses, this should suffice if you can approximate their alignment with the WiF map. Since the boxes are not all the same size, especially on a flat map, all you have to achieve is a reasonable approximation of accuracy. The boxes are then divided up into three equal rows and columns. It's not as if the kriegsmarine grid is going to be used as anything more than decoration in MWiF, after all.

I also agree that it would probably be best to either incorporate the entire grid, or forget it entirely. A partial implementation would look wierd.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 451
RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/31/2006 11:49:18 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Here is a simple explanation in English (hopefully not too simple). It has a rotating font code example in the middle of the page.

http://cma.zdnet.com/book/visualc/ch13/ch13.htm


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Post #: 452
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 12:03:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Thanks, I'll try it when I get a chance.

Steve

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Post #: 453
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 6:50:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ballista

The maps are looking great ! One thing though- would it be possible to "lighten" the rivers a bit so that they stand out a little more- they appear to fade into the background terrain a bit (or is this because of the screenshot process, or just my fading eyes ?).....

- Don


If you look at Patrice's picture of the WIF FE maps in post #438 , you will see the same river color as I have been posting in screen shots. I tried out a couple of variations and it isn't hard to make the rivers stand out more (darker outline, not lighter). It is the contrast that makes things stand out (light against dark). That makes the rivers a more forceful visual presence on the map, but I don't know if that is a good thing.

Steve


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Post #: 454
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 12:04:00 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Maybe have the rivers wider so that they stand out more against the background ? Is it possible to have the rivers wider ?

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Post #: 455
Esoteric reference - 2/1/2006 12:34:36 PM   
Greyshaft


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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...Doing so would add historical verisimilitude...

Hmmm. I've only come across that word in one other special interest group where it was given the adjective of 'artistic' rather than 'historical'. Dare I ask if you know that group or would you prefer that I refrain from putting in my oar?

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Post #: 456
RE: Esoteric reference - 2/1/2006 6:19:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...Doing so would add historical verisimilitude...

Hmmm. I've only come across that word in one other special interest group where it was given the adjective of 'artistic' rather than 'historical'. Dare I ask if you know that group or would you prefer that I refrain from putting in my oar?


I have been writing computer simulations for my entire adult life, so the word 'verisimilitude' comes up a lot. As I use it, it means having enough of the characteristics of 'something' that it seems like it is the real thing - though it isn't. Computer simulations strive to achieve this effect, making things seem like they are real. The adjective historical can be added almost everytime the word is used in conjunction with MWIF. Artisitc as its adjective would imply there is less substance, but more glitz (correctly applied). For example, the lighting effects used in 3-D first person shooters add artistic verisimilitude to those games - they do not affect how the game plays.

Steve

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Post #: 457
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 6:23:15 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Maybe have the rivers wider so that they stand out more against the background ? Is it possible to have the rivers wider ?


Ah, an easy question.

No.

The rivers and lakes have been taken directly from the WIF FE paper map for Europe (you can think of it as scanning them in). Making them wider would have to be done by hand.

Do you think the rivers need to be a more forceful presence visually? I am open comments from everyone on this topic. It is trivial for me to do by changing the 3 shades of blue I am using for the rivers and lakes.

Steve

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Post #: 458
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 8:07:18 PM   
Cheesehead

 

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quote:

Do you think the rivers need to be a more forceful presence visually?


Not at the expense of a significant delay in the game release date.

(I define significant ... 2 days)

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Post #: 459
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 8:10:08 PM   
Ballista


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Status: offline 		FWIW, I think it would be nice- but not at the cost of time better spent elsewhere....

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Post #: 460
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 8:22:56 PM   
Greyshaft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ballista

FWIW, I think it would be nice- but not at the cost of time better spent elsewhere....
Wot Ballista said... OK?

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Post #: 461
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 10:20:42 PM   
pak19652002

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


It is trivial for me to do by changing the 3 shades of blue I am using for the rivers and lakes.





Maybe you could post a map section with all three river shades for everyone to consider...like you did with anchors and whatnot.

Peter

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 462
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:31:22 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
It is trivial for me to do by changing the 3 shades of blue I am using for the rivers and lakes.

Maybe you could post a map section with all three river shades for everyone to consider...like you did with anchors and whatnot.

Peter


I have changed the colors for the inland rivers, while the coastal rivers are the old color - they mathc the paper maps. You should be able to see the difference most clearly when the Elbe enters the hex Hamburg is in. The Oder flows from a forest hex to a clear terrain hex so the visual difference there is partly due to the change in the river color and partly due to the change in terrain. Compare the river in the hex southeast of Stettin with the ones near Leipzig and Dresden. I also got a bit of the rivers running through the mountains in this screen shot - at the bottom.




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Post #: 463
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:34:38 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here is one for the rivers in France. I have not changed the interior color of the rivers, because it is the same as for the lakes. I could go for a tint that is a closer match to that of the lightest blue where the ocean meets the coast line. They don't quite match presently.




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Post #: 464
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:38:14 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Status: offline 		The last in the series. Here you can see that besides the rivers becoming more forceful, the lakes do too. This screen shot shows the rivers running through the swamps. Again, the color of blue for the lakes matches the interior blue of the rivers. I tried going with a solid dark blue, and the lakes looked like blue ink blots.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 465
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:38:57 PM   
Ballista


Posts: 183
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		Would it be possible to see this at a higher level (e.g. like the posting of Spain earlier a few pages back- it was the one where it seems the rivers were not visible enough and kind of brought out my concerns) ? They seem fine close up- but at higher levels it might make a difference...


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 466
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:50:59 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I realized, I should be showing these to you at differnet zoom levels. The previous oines were all at level 8 (max).

Here is level 6.




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Post #: 467
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:52:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here is level 5 zoom.




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Post #: 468
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:55:14 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Lastly, here is level 4 zoom (the same as CWIF's 100%)




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Post #: 469
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/1/2006 11:59:53 PM   
Caranorn


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Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		The original color sets for the rivers appear best to me, though the ugliness of the current images might be due to jpg color conversion (the darker blue seems to clash with the background colors on occasion, the lines also seem too thick (which is a natural effect of raising the contrast level)).

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Post #: 470
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 12:00:08 AM   
pak19652002

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline 		I like the darker river outlines a lot. Anything to increase the contrast, particularly at lower zoom levels.

Peter

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 471
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 3:02:17 AM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 660
Joined: 10/22/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The last in the series. Here you can see that besides the rivers becoming more forceful, the lakes do too. This screen shot shows the rivers running through the swamps. Again, the color of blue for the lakes matches the interior blue of the rivers. I tried going with a solid dark blue, and the lakes looked like blue ink blots.





I like the lakes better like this.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 472
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 3:04:44 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		River colour changes are fine for version 2.6! I am sure you have other things to do and even us colour blind types have no issue with them.

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Post #: 473
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 3:35:53 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		At the zooom level 4 as shown, the rivers are clearly visible and an improvement on the CWiF rivers I think.

Ar least from my experience most of CWiF play did occur at this zoom level and I would expect that to remain so for the MWiF program.

Perhaps the resource markers could be made larger or more contrasting though.

Lars


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 474
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 4:13:33 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

At the zooom level 4 as shown, the rivers are clearly visible and an improvement on the CWiF rivers I think.

Ar least from my experience most of CWiF play did occur at this zoom level and I would expect that to remain so for the MWiF program.

Perhaps the resource markers could be made larger or more contrasting though.

Lars


Better resource markers are on their way, along with all the other map icons. Hopefully I'll have them in my hot little hands in the next couple of days.

-----------------------

Changing the rivers to a darker blue will only take an hour or so - at most. I figure I might as well get them the way most of the players will want them. This is just a little side issue for me. I focus most of my energy on more important (and difficult) things.

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Post #: 475
Another spanner in the works... - 2/2/2006 9:29:26 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		I notice that the hex overlay is on top of the rivers. Is that:

A. Intentional?
B. Standard practice in wargames?
C. The best solution?
D. Shut up Greyshaft. You ask too many questions!

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Post #: 476
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 10:32:56 AM   
asgern

 

Posts: 2
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Status: offline 		I prefer the darker blue rivers. IMO, this makes the rivers stand out from the background, even at the lower zoom levels - which I prefer, as rivers are quite important features for the gameplay (I did miss some rivers now and then in CWIF and on the paper maps).

Keep up the good work!

- Asger

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 477
RE: Another spanner in the works... - 2/2/2006 10:41:02 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I notice that the hex overlay is on top of the rivers. Is that:

A. Intentional?
B. Standard practice in wargames?
C. The best solution?
D. Shut up Greyshaft. You ask too many questions!


Underlying terrain .... wait for it .... underlies everything else! Rivers are bitmaps superimposed on the underlying terrain.

Next the rail lines are drawn on top, then the hexside/grid and the finally the icons. The units are placed/drawn on top of the map. When I get the graphics for the alpine hexsides, they will replace the regular hexside/grid for the hexsides they cover.

It's not really practical to have the hex grid under the rivers for then I would have to insert the hex grid into the coastal bitmaps when they are preprocessed. Hmmm, I'm drifting into techincal stuff here. Let's just leave it as "not really practical".

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Post #: 478
RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/2/2006 10:41:24 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Well, the darker rivers show better, but on these screenshots they seem to smudge (I picked this word in the dictionary). I mean that the dark blue line on each sie of the inside of the river seem to smudge over the hex terrain. The lighter color had not this.
Why not have the clear terrain lighter ?
Oh, anyway that's not a big deal, darker or as they were at just before is fine, just it would be better if the color did not smudge.

Cheers !
Patrice

(in reply to asgern)
Post #: 479
RE: Another spanner in the works... - 2/2/2006 10:42:49 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
I notice that the hex overlay is on top of the rivers. Is that:
A. Intentional?
B. Standard practice in wargames?
C. The best solution?
D. Shut up Greyshaft. You ask too many questions!

I think this is standard practice.
And don't shut up

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 480
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