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RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/9/2006 5:59:39 PM

Ballista

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Joined: 1/21/2005
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At the low level (eg the Greece picture) the resource is fine. They do seem to vanish a bit at the higher level (eg Spain). Maybe this is also coming from something with the .JPG compression ? I heartily dislike the WIFE maps- counters seem to vanish from time to time and the glossyness seems to ruin the whole thing. I guess I'm just old school- I liked the old paper maps from Pre-WIFE, but that puts me in the minority I'm sure. Just another old wargaming crank crackpot voicing his opinion......

As a purely theoretical discussion, if we could print the map out with 5/8" hexes, how big would this map be ? Just curious...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 541

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/9/2006 6:34:18 PM

c92nichj

Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
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quote:

#5 - I see your point, but just barely. There are two opposing goals: maintaining a consistent ambience versus making things noticeable. You are saying the resources are not noticeable enough, I do not want to lose the consistency. But we are just 2 viewers. I would like to hear more opinions on this.

The part of the new icons I am least happy with are the resource icon, the oil looks really great. Getting rid of the '1' sign from the resource wil make it look better.

I don't say it is a big issue, but if you want an opinion I side with Dan.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 542

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/9/2006 10:02:19 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ballista

At the low level (eg the Greece picture) the resource is fine. They do seem to vanish a bit at the higher level (eg Spain). Maybe this is also coming from something with the .JPG compression ? I heartily dislike the WIFE maps- counters seem to vanish from time to time and the glossyness seems to ruin the whole thing. I guess I'm just old school- I liked the old paper maps from Pre-WIFE, but that puts me in the minority I'm sure. Just another old wargaming crank crackpot voicing his opinion......

As a purely theoretical discussion, if we could print the map out with 5/8" hexes, how big would this map be ? Just curious...

360 hexes across, 195 hexes high. Because it is a hexgrid, and given the orientation of the hexes in the grid, you should count the vertical as 3/4 due to nesting.

That gives you 18 feet 9 inches wide and 7 feet 8 inches high. My living room is 26 feet long, so it would fit on one wall - but we wouldn't be able to go out on the lanai.

If you want another image, imagine placing it on a cylinder that is 8 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. After all, the map wraps around horizontally.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Ballista)

Post #: 543

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/9/2006 10:08:10 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

quote:

#5 - I see your point, but just barely. There are two opposing goals: maintaining a consistent ambience versus making things noticeable. You are saying the resources are not noticeable enough, I do not want to lose the consistency. But we are just 2 viewers. I would like to hear more opinions on this.

The part of the new icons I am least happy with are the resource icon, the oil looks really great. Getting rid of the '1' sign from the resource wil make it look better.

I don't say it is a big issue, but if you want an opinion I side with Dan.

How about simply changing the outline for the non-oil resource icon? Right now it is somewhere between an light brown and an orange. If we went to something brighter (e.g. white), it would stand out from the mountains quite well. A lot of the resources are in mountain terrain. It should also help seeing those in the clear terrain too.

Or are you looking for more dramatic changes?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 544

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/9/2006 10:22:08 PM

Ballista

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quote:

360 hexes across, 195 hexes high. Because it is a hexgrid, and given the orientation of the hexes in the grid, you should count the vertical as 3/4 due to nesting.

That gives you 18 feet 9 inches wide and 7 feet 8 inches high. My living room is 26 feet long, so it would fit on one wall - but we wouldn't be able to go out on the lanai.

If you want another image, imagine placing it on a cylinder that is 8 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. After all, the map wraps around horizontally.

I may just have to get some time on a HP Plotter after the game comes out and try printing something like that....

A 8 by 6 foot cylinder would make quite a conversation piece in the wargame room, no ?.....

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 545

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/10/2006 7:53:37 AM

dhatchen

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/23/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

quote:

#5 - I see your point, but just barely. There are two opposing goals: maintaining a consistent ambience versus making things noticeable. You are saying the resources are not noticeable enough, I do not want to lose the consistency. But we are just 2 viewers. I would like to hear more opinions on this.

The part of the new icons I am least happy with are the resource icon, the oil looks really great. Getting rid of the '1' sign from the resource wil make it look better.

I don't say it is a big issue, but if you want an opinion I side with Dan.

How about simply changing the outline for the non-oil resource icon? Right now it is somewhere between an light brown and an orange. If we went to something brighter (e.g. white), it would stand out from the mountains quite well. A lot of the resources are in mountain terrain. It should also help seeing those in the clear terrain too.

Or are you looking for more dramatic changes?

I mentioned in an earlier post that I really prefer the orange background on the non-oil resource, but I could live with these. My issue here is simply visibility. You mentioned a different coloured outline. Lets try this against the Spanish mountains at the same resolution before anything more dramatic. If everyone likes, then I will too.

Dan

< Message edited by dhatchen -- 2/10/2006 7:55:08 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 546

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/10/2006 2:48:45 PM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
Status: offline

i am like a kid in a candy store waiting for the owner to say its all free!This is going to be good!

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Post #: 547

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/10/2006 5:16:24 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ballista

quote:

360 hexes across, 195 hexes high. Because it is a hexgrid, and given the orientation of the hexes in the grid, you should count the vertical as 3/4 due to nesting.

That gives you 18 feet 9 inches wide and 7 feet 8 inches high. My living room is 26 feet long, so it would fit on one wall - but we wouldn't be able to go out on the lanai.

If you want another image, imagine placing it on a cylinder that is 8 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. After all, the map wraps around horizontally.

I may just have to get some time on a HP Plotter after the game comes out and try printing something like that....

A 8 by 6 foot cylinder would make quite a conversation piece in the wargame room, no ?.....

hehe. 8 feet high. A lot of rooms have ceilings at that level.

If you look at the map as a whole, A lot of action occurs in the Northern Hemisphere. You'll need a step ladder (at least I would, being only 5'3'' and all...) most of the time.

Even spreading this out on the floor makes reaching the central areas a bit of a pain. (My arms and legs are stubby, too...) Things seem to leap out of your pockets when you are leaning over a game board.

(in reply to Ballista)

Post #: 548

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/10/2006 5:48:01 PM

Ballista

Posts: 183
Joined: 1/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ballista

quote:

360 hexes across, 195 hexes high. Because it is a hexgrid, and given the orientation of the hexes in the grid, you should count the vertical as 3/4 due to nesting.

That gives you 18 feet 9 inches wide and 7 feet 8 inches high. My living room is 26 feet long, so it would fit on one wall - but we wouldn't be able to go out on the lanai.

If you want another image, imagine placing it on a cylinder that is 8 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. After all, the map wraps around horizontally.

I may just have to get some time on a HP Plotter after the game comes out and try printing something like that....

A 8 by 6 foot cylinder would make quite a conversation piece in the wargame room, no ?.....

hehe. 8 feet high. A lot of rooms have ceilings at that level.

If you look at the map as a whole, A lot of action occurs in the Northern Hemisphere. You'll need a step ladder (at least I would, being only 5'3'' and all...) most of the time.

Even spreading this out on the floor makes reaching the central areas a bit of a pain. (My arms and legs are stubby, too...) Things seem to leap out of your pockets when you are leaning over a game board.

I was thinking of mouting it like a Budhist prayer wheel- you can spin it around and chant cryptic things like the WIF Naval Interception rules as written.....

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 549

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/10/2006 7:35:07 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

hehe. 8 feet high. A lot of rooms have ceilings at that level.

If you look at the map as a whole, A lot of action occurs in the Northern Hemisphere. You'll need a step ladder (at least I would, being only 5'3'' and all...) most of the time.

Even spreading this out on the floor makes reaching the central areas a bit of a pain. (My arms and legs are stubby, too...) Things seem to leap out of your pockets when you are leaning over a game board.

Give the cylinder a hydraulic jack for the base so it can be raised and lowered at the push of a button.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 550

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/16/2006 2:43:07 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhatchen

This just a thought, but I really like the active/inactive factory icon idea. Would it maybe be possible to port the same idea to the resource/oil icons? Also, even more off the wall, to show partial usage, ie, one stack smoking if only one is in use. This would make a real nice visual feedback touch.

The partial usage of the factories (one smoking and two not smoking) is already part of the code for the game (compliments of Chris).

These screen shots do not show damaged factories and resources. They look like functioning ones but with a diagonal red line across the icon. Individual factories can be damaged while others in the hex are not. When oil resources are damaged, I will have the program add another icon to the hex if necessary. For example, the polesti oil fields could be providing 3 oil resources with the 4th one damaged. There would be a icon of 3 good and a second icon of 1 damaged.

Ports can also be damaged and they are also shown with a diagonal red line across the icon.

Someone asked about factories in a hex that have moved. I can't seem to find the actual post, but here is one on the same topic.

The rules concerning factories are scattered about in the text, with some optional rules affecting them too.

The difference between printed blue factories and blue factories created by the player during the game ("new blue factories" or what I am calling here 'green' factories) are not real clear. There are a few points that I have not been able to nail down, so I am going with my best understanding. The items in blue I am not completely certain about.

1 - green factories that arrive as reinforcements can be placed in any home city. I have a vague recollection that there had to be an existing factory in the hex. That may be an old rule that is no longer applicable. I can't find it in the current rules.

2 - blue factories that are moved can be placed in any home city. Same comment as for #1. For both #1 and #2, there is a maximum of 2 non-red factories in a hex.

3 - when factories are destroyed, the blue factories are destroyed before the red ones. Nothing is said about printed versus created blue factories. I am going with the understanding that the newer factories are destroyed first.

4 - printed blue factories are merely damaged, not destroyed. They can be repaired. The green factories are completely destroyed, they are never merely damaged.

5 - hexes that have printed blue factories (even if all the factories have been moved out of the hex) need to be captured for complete conquest. Cities with factories, but not printed factories, do not need to be captured for complete conquest.

For presentation of #5 I will leave an empty factory frame in the hex, if all the factories have been moved out. For example, in Kiev.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 551

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/16/2006 3:10:19 AM

lomyrin

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From: San Diego
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The only limitation on point #1 is that CW new factories must be placed in Britain unless it is conquered.

Point #5 is also true for voluntary surrender of a Power.

At least the above is what I also see in the latest rules.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 552

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/16/2006 3:38:33 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

The only limitation on point #1 is that CW new factories must be placed in Britain unless it is conquered.

Point #5 is also true for voluntary surrender of a Power.
At least the above is what I also see in the latest rules.

Lars

I don't understand. Voluntary surrender requires who to control what hexes?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 553

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/16/2006 4:13:31 AM

lomyrin

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A Major Power can voluntarily surrender if it controls less than half of it's printed factory stacks.
(Paris has 3 printed factory stacks). para 13.7.6.

It does not say to which Power it surrenders if more than one enemy Power controls factory stacks, so I would leave that to be decided by the participating enemy Powers.

This was not implemented in CWiF.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 554

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/16/2006 5:08:53 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Thanks.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 555

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/16/2006 5:49:08 PM

c92nichj

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Joined: 1/14/2005
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quote:

A Major Power can voluntarily surrender if it controls less than half of it's printed factory stacks.
(Paris has 3 printed factory stacks). para 13.7.6.

If the chineese is badly hurt it might be a good idea to surrender as:
- The as the amount of USentry chit's is huge
- Japan will become inactive inactive (unless at war with USSR) and be restricted to combined moves
- killing off all japaneese militia units and the reserve units are withdrawn.

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 556

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 5:53:55 AM

Neilster

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No-one replied when I complained that the railways looked like tape-worms so I'm posting this image that I've flogged from Andrew Brown on the Unit Depictions On Screen thread. I think the railways on it look far superior. They actually look like railways for start, and not something that one unfortunately finds hanging out of one's back-passage several months after eating poorly cooked pork.

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 557

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 7:03:13 AM

pak19652002

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quote:

I think the railways on it look far superior. They actually look like railways for start, and not something that one unfortunately finds hanging out of one's back-passage several months after eating poorly cooked pork.

Are you saying that the rail lines look like tape worms? I can't recall ever seeing one so I looked it up. I'll let all of you be the judge.

More to the point, I'm not thrilled about the rail lines from the other game. They seem too big relative to the map scale.

Still, the tapeworm image is hard to get out of one's head...

Peter

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Post #: 558

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 7:10:06 AM

Neilster

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quote:

Are you saying that the rail lines look like tape worms?

Yup!
Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 559

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 7:13:36 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

More to the point, I'm not thrilled about the rail lines from the other game. They seem too big relative to the map scale

Yes, but it's the style I like. The ones we've got now could be modified to look similar.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 560

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 7:41:48 AM

Manic Inertia

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Dammit I never had a problem with those rail lines until this Tape Worm thing .. looking at them now makes me feel queezy. Maybe Shannon, you could make them grey instead of, well, sort of faecal? One could argue that that's a more 'realistic' colour anyway...

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Post #: 561

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 11:46:30 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Dammit I never had a problem with those rail lines until this Tape Worm thing .. looking at them now makes me feel queezy. Maybe Shannon, you could make them grey instead of, well, sort of faecal? One could argue that that's a more 'realistic' colour anyway...

It's easy to pick on any icon and misinterpret it in a negative way. I could do it with everything you see in that picture, and for most other pictures too.

For example, barbed wire rail lines do not appeal to me. The choice of adjectives, similes, and metaphors can be used in either a positve or negative way to make a point. Political ads are full of this stuff, ..., actually all advertising is, now that I think about it.

I have almost no interest in this sport though. Using word-play to make a point just becomes a game of word-play: who can push more powerful emotional buttons.

By contrast, my own criticism of the rail lines is that they should be thinner, to be more in balamce with the rivers. Or the rivers should be thicker. It would be nice if the rail lines could be sharper with cleaner delineation between their outline and interior (compare them to the rivers). Of course, I tried to correct those items and found the minute number of pixels I have to work with a real constraint on alternatives.

The work play stuff is tangentially related to one of my personal rules: "Never argue with a comedian, they are professionally trained to humiliate their enemies."

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 562

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 9:04:12 PM

hakon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

3 - when factories are destroyed, the blue factories are destroyed before the red ones. Nothing is said about printed versus created blue factories. I am going with the understanding that the newer factories are destroyed first.

This appears to not always be the case in RAW. In particular, factories destroyed by strategic bombing, must me "usable" factories. My interpretation of this, is that if Paris is bombed while in german hands, only the red factory can be destroyed, not the blue ones.

It is a reasonably important in Paris and Lille, since these factores are reasonable easy to reach even with early british fighters, so they will often see a lot of bombing.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 563

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 9:38:29 PM

pak19652002

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

3 - when factories are destroyed, the blue factories are destroyed before the red ones. Nothing is said about printed versus created blue factories. I am going with the understanding that the newer factories are destroyed first.

This appears to not always be the case in RAW. In particular, factories destroyed by strategic bombing, must me "usable" factories. My interpretation of this, is that if Paris is bombed while in german hands, only the red factory can be destroyed, not the blue ones.

It is a reasonably important in Paris and Lille, since these factores are reasonable easy to reach even with early british fighters, so they will often see a lot of bombing.

I agree with Hakon on the "usable factories first" principle. The example in option 30 actually spells this out nicely.

But, I'm concerned about the idea that that newer factories will be destroyed before older ones. The rules indicate that you can't repair new factories, only printed ones. That means rebuilding a destroyed new factory is much more expensive (4 BPs) and takes longer (2 turns) than a printed factory. If it is RAW, then so be it (I can't find a reference either). But, if not, then I think the issue should be vetted through the main Yahoo! board or at least considered carefully here since it is not a trivial issue.

Peter

(in reply to hakon)

Post #: 564

RE: Maps for MWIF - 2/28/2006 11:06:02 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
3 - when factories are destroyed, the blue factories are destroyed before the red ones. Nothing is said about printed versus created blue factories. I am going with the understanding that the newer factories are destroyed first.

This appears to not always be the case in RAW. In particular, factories destroyed by strategic bombing, must me "usable" factories. My interpretation of this, is that if Paris is bombed while in german hands, only the red factory can be destroyed, not the blue ones.

It is a reasonably important in Paris and Lille, since these factores are reasonable easy to reach even with early british fighters, so they will often see a lot of bombing.

I agree with Hakon on the "usable factories first" principle. The example in option 30 actually spells this out nicely.

But, I'm concerned about the idea that that newer factories will be destroyed before older ones. The rules indicate that you can't repair new factories, only printed ones. That means rebuilding a destroyed new factory is much more expensive (4 BPs) and takes longer (2 turns) than a printed factory. If it is RAW, then so be it (I can't find a reference either). But, if not, then I think the issue should be vetted through the main Yahoo! board or at least considered carefully here since it is not a trivial issue.

Peter

Only usable factories get destroyed. I'll make sure the code works that way.

As to destroying printed blue factories before newly created factories, or vice-a-versa, the case can be argued both ways. The code needs to implement just one though. I detest the idea of an optional rule for this minor point.

If you want to provide more input on which way this rule should go, I would be glad to hear opinions. It is trivial to modify even after it is coded.

I, on the other hand, am not going to take the time to do a definitive study on this topic. It is a very minor item.
Consider: how many new factories are created in a game? How often are they strategically bombed to the point of destruction? How often are destroyed factories repaired/rebuilt. What is the total effect on the build points for repairing a factory versus rebuilding it? Does one side suffer more from this difference than the other? I think the total impact might be equal to a single INF at most.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 565

RE: Maps for MWIF - 3/3/2006 10:05:14 AM

Norden_slith

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with a zoomlevel like that, could units laid out side be side in each hex, instead of becoming very large?

Norden

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Post #: 566

RE: Maps for MWIF - 3/3/2006 10:56:06 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden

with a zoomlevel like that, could units laid out side be side in each hex, instead of becoming very large?

Norden

I just read your post after replying to your other one in the units thread. The answer is yes; and I elaborated on that point n the other thread.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 567

RE: Maps for MWIF - 3/4/2006 10:47:55 AM

Norden_slith

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From: expatriate german
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In reply to both answers:

SOLD!

Norden

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Post #: 568

RE: Maps for MWIF - 3/6/2006 9:53:53 AM

Manic Inertia

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I'LL tell you what can be done with a magnifications like that:

Print off the whole map to a size where it'll cover 3 of the four walls of my spare room, then wallpaper it over the 3 custom fitted steel sheets that currently make the room look like the inside of a new oven.

Then take high quality photocopies of all the WiF counter sheets to a corresponding size, then take 'em all down to your local printer who'll copy 'em onto magnetic 'fridge-magnet' plasticard for you to then cut into counters. Thousands and thousands of 'em.

I have been waiting for the whole WiF world to appear in richly coloured, nicely geographed euro-scale: I've been waiting for wallpaper. Stepping into my spare room shortly after the birth of MWiF will feel like orbiting the planet.

Amen.

(in reply to Norden_slith)

Post #: 569

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 7:32:10 PM

ASHBERY76

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I mean no disrespect to the people involved but I expected the graphics to be much higher standard than what has been shown.It looks like games from the early 90's.With such a well known name like W.I.F, I expected Matrix to really be on the ball in this area.

(in reply to Manic Inertia)

Post #: 570