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Guard Units - 7/21/2005 2:30:48 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		I did a brief search of the forums and didn't find it but I thought I read somewhere that building guard units is actually bad for the morale of your other units? Is that right? If so, is it a permanent reduction or only a reduction of existing units? Or am I on crack?

Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: Guard Units - 7/21/2005 2:40:24 AM   
jinks


Posts: 32
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I did read that too, but as fare as I understand it just means you don't build loads of them because that would ruin you morale in your army, but then again I would like to know how many is max....trial and error can be a pain some times, some things a better known from the start.

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 2
RE: Guard Units - 7/21/2005 7:01:37 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		If you read the manual, you would know the answer, Joram.

(in reply to jinks)
Post #: 3
RE: Guard Units - 7/21/2005 7:08:56 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		LOL. Thx.

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 4
RE: Guard Units - 7/22/2005 3:55:26 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, I've painstakingly looked through the manual and the only reference I've found to my question was on page 80 under strategic notes.
It says:
"If you build your guard units early, you can avoid the morale drain on subsequently produced infantry."

Where else in the manual does it say there is any kind of penalty on your infantry for building a guard unit? What is this penalty and what is it supposed to represent? Does this statement mean that all infantry built after your guard units don't have a morale drain? Then which units do? The ones already produced and how significant is it?

Anybody? Bueller?

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 5
RE: Guard Units - 7/22/2005 5:26:17 AM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Ok, I've painstakingly looked through the manual and the only reference I've found to my question was on page 80 under strategic notes.
It says:
"If you build your guard units early, you can avoid the morale drain on subsequently produced infantry."

Where else in the manual does it say there is any kind of penalty on your infantry for building a guard unit? What is this penalty and what is it supposed to represent? Does this statement mean that all infantry built after your guard units don't have a morale drain? Then which units do? The ones already produced and how significant is it?

Anybody? Bueller?

I thought only regular infantry units would be affected, as guard units (no other guard types than footmen for the time being) are supposed to come from them. I am not certain just how significant the effect on existing morale for those infantry units is, but I reckon it may be related to the ratio of the number of guards to be built to that of existing infantrymen. Which is to say, more infantrymen mean less effect on their overall morale. Besides, the effect is limited merely to those infantrymen existing at the time of guard creation. I hope I am right.

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 6
RE: Guard Units - 7/22/2005 6:10:42 AM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		I ain't sure about this one, but I think Naomi is right.
I am pushing to produce guards as anyone other than France (everyone else needs Corps so badly), so it has been a while...

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 7
RE: Guard Units - 7/22/2005 1:41:58 PM   
Latour_Maubourg


Posts: 90
Joined: 7/7/2005
Status: offline 		I created a Guard's army. Took me many, many years. with 5 guard infantry divisions, 3 heavy cavalry divisions and 2 horse artillery divisions. It took me some time but it pays off. I send them into battle against 250.000 Prussians and they easily stood their ground.

There is also an upgrade called: Elite guard. So if you go to battle with combined armies it works miracles for the morale of other troops.

Although in the real Napoleonic army. The guard were often hated. Not only because they were better equiped and fed than the regular army. or the fact that a regular regiment had to stop marching, salute and lower their flag if a guard regiment passed by. But mainly because Napoleon often was too hesitant to use them. Famous is the Borodino battle, where the guard could have made the difference on the day. His marshalls begged him to use them, but after Bessieres whispered in his ear: "Sire, you are thousends of miles away from Paris", he decided not to use them. Thus missing the chance to completely route the Russians and probably win the campaign. (but that was not his only mistake in that campaign)

If you want to know more about the real Napoleonic army in all aspects, I suggest you read: Swords around a throne by John R Eltingh.
750 pages. ISBN 0-75380-219-8.



L-M


< Message edited by Latour_Maubourg -- 7/22/2005 5:05:59 PM >

_____________________________

"What have you got to cry about man, you have one less boot to polish in future." L-M's reaction at his distressed valet after his leg was shot off at Leipzig.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 8
RE: Guard Units - 7/22/2005 8:10:43 PM   
jinks


Posts: 32
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		What I was talking about was on page 80 under strategic tips.

But on page 44 it has a description : "Ordered guard units raise the morale of all non-routed, non-disordered adjacent friendly units by .2. A unit may benefit from no more than one guard each turn. Guards may not raise a unit’s morale greater than 4.0 and each day of battle decreases this maximum by 1.0."

Hope that helps a bit

(in reply to Latour_Maubourg)
Post #: 9
RE: Guard Units - 7/22/2005 11:51:01 PM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		hi, some to say, at this time i am designing a scenario and have included some guards from the two imperial guard divisions that start with napoleon in the standard campaign, if you add enough guards, say between 6 to 8 units, infantry morale is reduced around 2.0 for all french infantry, sad to see this, i like guards have a important part in strategic and tactical theaters of operations.

with regards,

alaric.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 10
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 1:57:45 AM   
Latour_Maubourg


Posts: 90
Joined: 7/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jinks

What I was talking about was on page 80 under strategic tips.

But on page 44 it has a description : "Ordered guard units raise the morale of all non-routed, non-disordered adjacent friendly units by .2. A unit may benefit from no more than one guard each turn. Guards may not raise a unit’s morale greater than 4.0 and each day of battle decreases this maximum by 1.0."

Hope that helps a bit



I know Jinks, but it is always fun to toy around...


L-M


_____________________________

"What have you got to cry about man, you have one less boot to polish in future." L-M's reaction at his distressed valet after his leg was shot off at Leipzig.

(in reply to jinks)
Post #: 11
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 2:01:14 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alaric_31

hi, some to say, at this time i am designing a scenario and have included some guards from the two imperial guard divisions that start with napoleon in the standard campaign, if you add enough guards, say between 6 to 8 units, infantry morale is reduced around 2.0 for all french infantry, sad to see this, i like guards have a important part in strategic and tactical theaters of operations.

with regards,

alaric.


Thanks, that kind of answers my question.

(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 12
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 2:30:22 PM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Latour_Maubourg

I created a Guard's army. Took me many, many years. with 5 guard infantry divisions, 3 heavy cavalry divisions and 2 horse artillery divisions. It took me some time but it pays off. I send them into battle against 250.000 Prussians and they easily stood their ground.

There is also an upgrade called: Elite guard. So if you go to battle with combined armies it works miracles for the morale of other troops.

Although in the real Napoleonic army. The guard were often hated. Not only because they were better equiped and fed than the regular army. or the fact that a regular regiment had to stop marching, salute and lower their flag if a guard regiment passed by. But mainly because Napoleon often was too hesitant to use them. Famous is the Borodino battle, where the guard could have made the difference on the day. His marshalls begged him to use them, but after Bessieres whispered in his ear: "Sire, you are thousends of miles away from Paris", he decided not to use them. Thus missing the chance to completely route the Russians and probably win the campaign. (but that was not his only mistake in that campaign)

If you want to know more about the real Napoleonic army in all aspects, I suggest you read: Swords around a throne by John R Eltingh.
750 pages. ISBN 0-75380-219-8.



L-M


Napoleon might have known his (long-indulgent) guard buddies too well; he was really not so willing to risk tarnishing his legend by sending this mass of veterans out only to see them knuckle under at the first moment of encounter. (The spectre of non-performing Prussian soldiers Frederick II left behind might have haunted him often enough.) So ward off creating too many guards. :p

(in reply to Latour_Maubourg)
Post #: 13
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 7:28:58 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Actually if you play with your recruit age, and time, get the highest moreal you can, then fight allot fo battles with them, do anything to raise their moral, and you will end up with guard units once they get past 8 moral. Just build regular infantry, then baby them to guard status, and you wont lower the overall moral of your troops.

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 14
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 8:30:32 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ahauschild

Actually if you play with your recruit age, and time, get the highest moreal you can, then fight allot fo battles with them, do anything to raise their moral, and you will end up with guard units once they get past 8 moral. Just build regular infantry, then baby them to guard status, and you wont lower the overall moral of your troops.


Infantry aren't supposed to be able to turn into guards. I don't think they can do this via winning battles.

For detailed combat:
for (int b=1; b<szBat; b++)
if (HexWar.Bat.hPiece)
{
GAMEPIECE pPiece = Piece(HexWar.Bat.hPiece);
if (pPiece &&
pPiece->IsDivision() &&
Random(100)>50)
{
if (pPiece->GetMorale()+MoraleForBattle<GuardMorale)
PTGame->Do_SetMorale(pPiece->Handle,
(int) ((pPiece->GetMorale()+MoraleForBattle)*1000));
}
}


for quick combat:
for (int b=1; b<szFightUnits; b++)
if (Fight.Units.hPiece)
{
GAMEPIECE pPiece = Piece(Fight.Units.hPiece);
if (pPiece &&
pPiece->IsDivision() &&
Random(100)>50)
{
if (pPiece->GetMorale()+MoraleForBattle<GuardMorale)
PTGame->Do_SetMorale(pPiece->Handle,
(int) ((pPiece->GetMorale()+MoraleForBattle)*1000));
}
}


This code looks as though it should be working to keep infantry from turning into guards when they win battles. Have you noticed this happening ever?


Eric

(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 15
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 9:08:23 PM   
jinks


Posts: 32
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Only seen inf turn guard unit by reinforcing em with men from other inf units

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 16
RE: Guard Units - 7/23/2005 9:23:50 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jinks

Only seen inf turn guard unit by reinforcing em with men from other inf units


I'll look into that! Thanks.

(in reply to jinks)
Post #: 17
RE: Guard Units - 7/24/2005 10:03:19 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I ended up in one game with 12 guard units that worked their way up from the ranks, I played prussia and never once bought guard units, but they just kept poping up in my assault army. I posted this in another thread a while back.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 18
RE: Guard Units - 7/24/2005 10:13:37 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		12 free guard -- that's awful (though not for Prussia...) Does this happen often to you? I'll write some additional preventative code in the morale-setting routine and see if I can't catch this problem.

Eric

(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 19
RE: Guard Units - 7/25/2005 5:28:19 PM   
carburo

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Eric,
I too have had a lot of inf promoted to guards during my games, but oddly one of my imperial guards reverted to infantry once (kept the Imp Guards name, but the icon was the inf one, and the morale was below 8). I don’t know if the demotion affected its combat stats because it was recovering in Paris and after that I refilled it manually with the other Imp guard unit and it went back to guard status. I havent’ figure out exactly how reinforcements are affecting morale (I don’t think the manual is accurate on this point), but I think that currently if a unit’s morale goes beyond 8 it gains guard status, and if it falls below 8 it reverts to inf. Shouldn’t be this way. Isn’t it?

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 20
RE: Guard Units - 7/25/2005 5:45:06 PM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carburo

Eric,
I too have had a lot of inf promoted to guards during my games, but oddly one of my imperial guards reverted to infantry once (kept the Imp Guards name, but the icon was the inf one, and the morale was below 8). I don’t know if the demotion affected its combat stats because it was recovering in Paris and after that I refilled it manually with the other Imp guard unit and it went back to guard status. I havent’ figure out exactly how reinforcements are affecting morale (I don’t think the manual is accurate on this point), but I think that currently if a unit’s morale goes beyond 8 it gains guard status, and if it falls below 8 it reverts to inf. Shouldn’t be this way. Isn’t it?


Can we change divisions' names?

(in reply to carburo)
Post #: 21
RE: Guard Units - 7/25/2005 5:58:33 PM   
carburo

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Usually not. But when you get an inf "promoted" they automatically change from 36th Infantry to 36th Guards. Not Imperial Guards, just plain Guards.

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 22
RE: Guard Units - 7/26/2005 1:16:44 AM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings, want to say some about guards, i think is enough 18 months training and the resources they cost in the un-modded engine to make penalty to all other infantry when guards units are created and limit this way the number of guards an army can have due to the morale penalty. is there any way to toggle this penalty off? i'm going to try some things about it.

thanks in advance,

with best regards,

alaric.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to carburo)
Post #: 23
RE: Guard Units - 7/26/2005 10:45:45 AM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alaric_31

Greetings, want to say some about guards, i think is enough 18 months training and the resources they cost in the un-modded engine to make penalty to all other infantry when guards units are created and limit this way the number of guards an army can have due to the morale penalty. is there any way to toggle this penalty off? i'm going to try some things about it.

thanks in advance,

with best regards,

alaric.

I desire first a way to toggle the bugs off.

(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 24
RE: Guard Units - 7/26/2005 11:43:20 AM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		hello everyone, mi first post about guards is somewhat confused, actually i have 16 guards units and only 8 infantry units are affected, from infantry status to milita status, 6.5 morale to 1.70, i'm going to replace this affected units from the front with new fresh infantry and i have two complete guards corps, is a good option to build a guards and add a infantry and replace these two units for the infantry with "morale depleted by the guard unit" where the reduction happens.

with best regards,

alaric.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 25
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