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Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/21/2005 4:21:31 AM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		Following a request on these boards, I asked some questions, and ericbabe was kind enough to give me some relevent source code to look at.

The effect of upgrades on quick combat is very interesting. Upgrades are classed in different groups (ie, affecting cavalry only), and then have a 25% chance of providing a plus one [and plus one is a VERY good thing] in their particular circumstances.

Ramifications:
(a) 25% of plus 1 seems like a good return to me - upgrades can help us do better at quick combat!
(b) I think March Training III is a bug, and have reported it
(c) I have asked further questions about Elite Guard - at the moment, it seems the only military advance that doesn't influence quick combat. Which I wouldn't mind - but is that the case?
(d) [EDIT] Note that the 'all purpose upgrades', which I would be less likely to take if using detailed combat now seem more attractive - I would expect PBEMers to be taking lots of Advanced Scounting! - HOWEVER: they only have a 1/7th chance to get you the +1, although they do affect all units...

[The numbers below are just alphabetial sequence numbers - no special meaning.]

Cavalry Upgrades
(Provide 25% chance of plus one in quick combat for cav units)
8. Cavalry Ferocity
9. Cavalry Operations
10. Cavalry Organisation
11. Cavalry Training
30. Irregular Tactics
53. Quality Horses

Artillery Upgrades
(Provide 25% chance of plus one in quick combat for arty units)
3. Artillery Divisions
4. Artillery organisation
5. Artillery Ranging
7. Cannonball Standards
39. Massed Artillery I
40. Massed Artillery II
41. Massed Artillery III
55. Rocket Horse

Defensive Inf Upgrades
(Provide 25% chance of plus one in quick combat for inf units as defender in that exchange of fire)
25. Field Medicine I
26. Field Medicine II
29. Impromptu Squares
56. Skirmisher training

Inf Upgrades
(Provide 25% chance of plus one in quick combat for inf units)
6. Bayonet Practice
16. Column Fighting
19. Divisional Artillery
20. Double Line Formation
28. Formation Drilling
32. Line Marching
36. March Training I
37. March Training II
42. Mixed Order
43. Mobile Squares
57. Square Firepower
58. Target Practice I
59. Target Practice II
61. Wheel Training

All Purpose Upgrades
(EDIT: Provide 1/7th of a chance of plus one in quick combat for ALL units)
1. Advanced Scouting I
2. Advanced Scouting 2
21. Efficient Supply
23. Engineering Corps
24. Espirit de Corps
27. Flanking Tactics
44. Mobile Supply

Naval Upgrades
(Provide 25% chance of plus one in quick combat for naval units)
48. Naval Guns
49. Naval Manoeuvres
50. Naval Repairs

Location-Based-Upgrades
(These influence combat based on its location, and have the same effect in both types of combat)
18. Desert Fighting
22. Elite Guard (!)
52. Patriotism
62. Winter Fighting I
63. Winter Fighting II

Upgrades that don't directly affect combat
12. Colonial Regiments I
13. Colonial Regiments II
14. Colonial Warfare I
15. Colonial Warfare II
17. Corps System
31. Levee en Masse
33. March Logistics I
34. March Logistics II
35. March Logistics III
38. March Training III (!)
45. Nationalism I
46. Nationalism II
47. Nationalism III
51. Organised Foraging
54. Rapid March
60. Universal Service

< Message edited by Ralegh -- 7/21/2005 8:28:15 AM >

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh
Post #: 1
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/21/2005 11:36:32 AM   
mac85

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/8/2005
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		Thanks Ralegh. I'm in my first PBEM game and this will be very useful.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 2
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/21/2005 4:03:29 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Well I can tell you one thing, after conducting a war with Austria last night using only quick combat, Advanced Scouting I and II are *really* helpful. They had it and I didn't, and I could barely win a battle.

Now before you say "Turkish morale", let me just say that my guys had been upgraded significantly from their starting points. Most of my infantry was regular with a morale around 5.0...and an extra .5 added for empire status. I had six veteran janissaries in my primary fighting force (these guys are great in the charge zone). The Austrians had better cavalry because alot of mine was Irr, but I had a lot more than they did, which made my few victories pretty nasty when I got pursuit, and ameliorated their victories somewhat.

Outnumbering them 2-1 wasn't enough most times. I experimented over and over with how to set my units best in the areas. Janissaries definitely were best in the charge zone giving them a very strong attack. I also tended to put my regular cavalry up there. Regular inf was mostly in attack and poorer infantry in defense with some regulars. Artillery I always put in attack. Irr cavalry I tried everywhere, but they seemed to do "best" in charge zone.

I also noticed that there appears to be a limit as to how many units it will ask you to place, and that you can't choose which ones to place. This often hurt me badly, as some of my better units would be at the end of the list and never get asked for placement, while all my Irr cav would be placed. I don't really understand this, but I'm going to investigate the rules tonight.

Anyway, my upgrade choices will be changing significantly as a result of my experimentation.

(in reply to mac85)
Post #: 3
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/21/2005 5:34:21 PM   
Jordan

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks Ralegh.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 4
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/21/2005 6:24:35 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I also noticed that there appears to be a limit as to how many units it will ask you to place, and that you can't choose which ones to place. This often hurt me badly, as some of my better units would be at the end of the list and never get asked for placement, while all my Irr cav would be placed. I don't really understand this, but I'm going to investigate the rules tonight.


I've run in to this problem many times myself, and because of it I abhor Quick Battles. Very frustrating to have to leave my two Guard divisions in the Rout column!! :(

_____________________________

"La Garde meurt, elle ne se rend pas!"

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 5
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/21/2005 6:49:36 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Indeed. Turks don't have guards, but they do have limited artillery. Really hurts when those get stuck in route, because they are about the only thing the Turks have that will knock a veteran heavy cav out of the charge zone (in my admittedly limited experience). The Austrians had one that was kicking another of my guys to the back every turn.

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 6
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/22/2005 4:49:09 AM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline 		I am happy to read threads related to quick battles, as I use them almost exclusively. It is a serious problem, beyond debate, that we cannot choose which units to deploy, that leads often to the deprivation of the best unit that may tip the balance. With the normal limitation of 22 units, we may be forced to leave behind part of our bulky army. But we never desire we have to part with our sharpest-edged swords.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 7
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/22/2005 4:08:10 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline 		I agree 100%. We have to be able to pick the units we place. Now it should be different when the units are coming as reinforcements, as it is possible that some wouldn't arrive in time.

Irr cav are very, very useful for Turkey in detailed battle, but they are next to useless in quick combat. They get essentially one, not-very-good shot then rout. I'll have to check on their ability to help with pursuit and pursuit protection. Not sure how that relates to being in the rout zone when combat ends.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 7/22/2005 5:50:58 PM >

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 8
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/22/2005 5:42:26 PM   
Jordan

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Are the bonus cumulative? If I have 4 upgrades and make my roll on each is that a +4 for this combat?

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 9
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/23/2005 12:01:29 PM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		a) yes, bonuses are cumulative.

b) there is a size constraint on battles. Units over the size constraint miss out on participating. People have asked for the ability to choose which units fight - I dunno if that is coming or not. The workaround is to go into battles with smaller forces - whats the point of taking 40 divisions if only 22 (to pick a number at random) will fight? Take 22, and leave the other 18 back an area (or attacking some city)

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to Jordan)
Post #: 10
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/23/2005 12:53:38 PM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I agree 100%. We have to be able to pick the units we place. Now it should be different when the units are coming as reinforcements, as it is possible that some wouldn't arrive in time.

Irr cav are very, very useful for Turkey in detailed battle, but they are next to useless in quick combat. They get essentially one, not-very-good shot then rout. I'll have to check on their ability to help with pursuit and pursuit protection. Not sure how that relates to being in the rout zone when combat ends.


I agree to the conspicuous advantage some cav types can have in charge positions. Even plain cal types, while in droves and well supported, can still have something to show. I tried and placed up to 4 regular cav units in the utmost vanguard line (or column as we see it). Helped by superb overall morale (way upwards of 6) of the entire army, they did carry out jobs well. I doubt, though, whether the mass participation of cavalries are useful in pursuit protection in quick-battle cases. I do hope it can be reflected and modelled during quick-battle solution.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 11
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/23/2005 1:17:19 PM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I doubt, though, whether the mass participation of cavalries are useful in pursuit protection in quick-battle cases. I do hope it can be reflected and modelled during quick-battle solution.


It is supposed to be.
In the 50% of occasions when a pursuit occurs, the no of cav divisions on each side should influence casulties.
Try to keep track over a few dozen battles and see if a trend surfaces, would ya?
(Cav divs on each side, no of pursuit casulties) - Just post the raw data if you want me to massage it.

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 12
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 7/27/2005 11:08:52 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Even plain cal types, while in droves and well supported, can still have something to show.


Yep, but they aren't near as deadly as a high-morale (6+) heavy in Charge. I completely revamped my Turkish gameplan because of these units. Probably isn't so much of an issue with nations that have steadier infantry, but Turkey is doing well to get an army full of 5 morale infantry. Those will get KTB (Kicked To Back) on the first attack usually.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 13
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 8/4/2005 5:07:29 PM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		Eric says that the Elite Guards, like the terrain stuff, does affect quick combat - its just implemented in a diferent patch of code.

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 14
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 8/19/2005 7:13:06 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'm playing PBEM and I reckon Empire wide improvements and not military are best.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 15
RE: Upgrades and Quick Combat - 8/22/2005 8:33:33 PM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lee James

I'm playing PBEM and I reckon Empire wide improvements and not military are best.


I have yet to receive an upgrade in PBEM, have you ever had one Lee?

Ian

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 16
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