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RE: When? - 6/2/2009 6:30:21 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow

quote:

2. Sound effects
Jim sent me sample files but I am unable to process the OGG versions. Looking OGG up on the web, I�ve found source listings in C (C++?), but it would be difficult to incorporate them in as source code (i.e., mixing Pascal and C code). If I can reference them as object libraries (e.g., DDLs), that would be great. I need to figure out how to process OGG files from within the program as easily as I do the historical video WMV files.

Hmm, I remember JTCS used .ogg as well. Since I had to look for an appropriare converter to add music files into this game. It's not a favorite format when it comes to later modding.

Karl (Cwie) solved this problem for me yesterday.

The program now executes OGG sound files perfectly. Some things are easy to do - when you know how to do them.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 1051

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 6:46:18 PM

npilgaard

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Thanks for the update.

As has been said many times by now: a delayed release is much to be preferred to an unfinished product.
A few more months is no problem at all.

I am amazed by the level of commitment to this project! - Thank you indeed for the huge amount of work you put into this!

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Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1052

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 7:11:48 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2. Sound effects
Jim sent me sample files but I am unable to process the OGG versions. Looking OGG up on the web, I�ve found source listings in C (C++?), but it would be difficult to incorporate them in as source code (i.e., mixing Pascal and C code). If I can reference them as object libraries (e.g., DDLs), that would be great. I need to figure out how to process OGG files from within the program as easily as I do the historical video WMV files.

Any interest in the radio clips we talked about a couple of month ago ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1053

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 7:16:02 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2. Sound effects
Jim sent me sample files but I am unable to process the OGG versions. Looking OGG up on the web, I�ve found source listings in C (C++?), but it would be difficult to incorporate them in as source code (i.e., mixing Pascal and C code). If I can reference them as object libraries (e.g., DDLs), that would be great. I need to figure out how to process OGG files from within the program as easily as I do the historical video WMV files.

Any interest in the radio clips we talked about a couple of month ago ?

I'll discuss this with Dave and Erik when we talk next (probably tomorrow). I am worried about copyright issues. If that is not a concern, then I will certainly include some of them, because they are terrific.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 1054

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 8:02:35 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

Update on the WiF fan site. So far I have sent three requests to Matrix for permission to use copyrighted material in the web site. This is needed due to the material I wish to present for your use.�Steve forwarded the original request immediately upon his receipt. I�also sent 2 more emails and a request through the Matrix web site on different followup dates.�I have not received a response�from Matrix yet. There could be many reasons for this from multi company discussions to various legal issues. So I am waiting patiently for a response. I will return from my deployment next week and hopefully will be able to get a start on the site. I will open a thread for dicussion on this topic once I get a formal go ahead from Matrix. Until then they hold the keys....

Are you thinking of tying this into the suggestion that there should be a forum for players to link up for Netplay and PBEM?

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Post #: 1055

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 8:19:51 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

Dates slip, that is unavoidable. When I worked in the software industry we used to have an inside joke: "take the expected time to completion, multiply it by two, and change it to the next higher unit of measuring time; that is the time it will really take to do it well". Thus, 2 days became 4 weeks...

My favorite is:
"What one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months."

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Kitakami)

Post #: 1056

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 8:58:00 PM

Sewerlobster

Posts: 330
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Once again, I congratulate Steve on his progress and decisions. Bugs ruin a game's reputation, and need to be trimmed as much as possible pre-releaese. The AIO is vital to me, and really -- who's more important than me?

While I would certainly buy this game w/o AI; an AI-less MWiF would be a business risk. Even if Steve's little survey is wrong and only half of the 53% demand a functioning AIO than the loss of 26% of the potential buyers could make the game unprofitable; and an unprofitable game doesn't get published on purpose -- so we could all lose. Even a delay until December would be okay, to me -- again "the most important" customer.

This begs a few questions. I may have missed it elsewhere, but the progress reports seem to always mention minor country AIO. Are the major country AIO all near ready to be embedded and tested? or are they the last part of this equation? As the word 'testing' implies there will be bug and/or poor execution at first, is the expected completion date a realistic target? I would guess the answer is problamatic in that unforseen problems are so unforseen.

Regardless: the progress, depth and scope of this project are inspiring and I encourage Steve and Matrix to continue on this way. Thank you.

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Post #: 1057

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 10:03:11 PM

ptey

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About the postponement, I think the writing was on the wall atleast a month ago. Im glad you didnt choose to release a game almost unplayable due to bugs Steve.

Also, 500 hours for the AI seems low. I suspect it wont be competitive against anyone but a novice. Im fine with that though. Are you willing to share what your aim is here Steve?

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1058

RE: When? - 6/2/2009 10:13:39 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ptey

About the postponement, I think the writing was on the wall atleast a month ago. Im glad you didnt choose to release a game almost unplayable due to bugs Steve.

Also, 500 hours for the AI seems low. I suspect it wont be competitive against anyone but a novice. Im fine with that though. Are you willing to share what your aim is here Steve?

I have a lot to do.

My aim is to get things to work.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 1059

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 2:19:21 AM

bfontes

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It looks like Microsoft might be able to get Windows 7 out before this game is ready. So, will the game come with the "Windows 7 Ready" seal of approval?

< Message edited by bfontes -- 6/4/2009 3:51:58 AM >

(in reply to nanorider426)

Post #: 1060

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 2:38:23 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bfontes

It looks like Microsoft might be able to get Windows 7 out before this game is ready. So, will the game come with the "Windows 7 Ready" seal of approval?

I am not sure what that means.

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Post #: 1061

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 3:32:18 AM

Taxman66

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Better question: Has anyone tested MWiF with Windows 7 Beta?

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Post #: 1062

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 4:10:01 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Better question:� Has anyone tested MWiF with�Windows 7 Beta?

Yes, at least one of the beta testers. But that was in January and I do not know the current status/evaluation.

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Post #: 1063

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 5:00:57 AM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Better question:� Has anyone tested MWiF with�Windows 7 Beta?

Yes, at least one of the beta testers. But that was in January and I do not know the current status/evaluation.

Most likely, if it works on Vista it will work on Windows 7. It would surprise me if somehow MWiF used something from Windows 7 that wasn't already available in Vista.

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Flipper

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Post #: 1064

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 5:29:17 AM

Windfire

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I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get a good product. To many other companies, rush games out the door when they are not ready. I am glad to see that Matrix and Steve continue to hold the line.

Hats off to you Steve for the monumental effort.

(in reply to wworld7)

Post #: 1065

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 6:30:05 AM

yvesp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

I have posted before that I just cannot envision an AI that can play this game. No disrespect to Steve, or any other programmers of other computer war games. I think you should release this without AI and let the PBEM, Hot Seat etc�games begin. I think the AI will have to be developed as an addition or as MWIF Product 2. I am not happy about that, but I can live with it. You are going to have to get neck deep in the AI for months, if not a year, to get it to the point that it can resemble a human opponent.

I don't mean this negatively, just productively and realistically.

This would be a very big mistake, as the game would immediately be labelled by the gaming community as a niche product.
The consequences would be poor initial sales (so not much money to continue development on later products), and once a game gets a bad label, there is no chance to get back in good standing unless a huge effort is made.

For my part, I do not consider buying the game unless it boasts a decent AIO. Finding human opponents is too complicated, and more than that, it leads to overlong games (PBEM) or too short ones (Netplay). Having played the board game with human opponents, it appears to me that more often than once, a team will quit in the middle of the game because it thinks it has lost, and has no patience to play a "lost game" to completion ; my experience also shows that most of these times, that reaction is a bad one : many things can happen till the end of a game, and a very poor decision by one team can be recovered later by either some luck, or more often than expected, a later disastrous move by the other team.

All this to say that only with the AIO will you be able to get a decent taste of the last part of the game, if only to have a taste of what it looks like (it is a very different game than the first years of the war.)

While I agree with you that an AIO for this game is going to be the hard part, there is no reason to be peremptuous and to say that it cannot be done. It can, but this takes time and skill. Steve certainly has the later. Beeing myself well versed in computer programming and reading monthly reports in every detail, I believe that item #15 will slip another two month, unless that development goes so well and everything so smooth that no bumps will slow down the pace. Unlikely. And it will only be a barely decent AIO. Improvements will come later, especially if the AI scripts are open to the community.

It doesn't really matter ; having waited, hum, what, 10 years ? I certainly can wait some more!

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 6/3/2009 6:32:54 AM >

(in reply to HansHafen)

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 11:47:58 AM

Caquineur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yvesp
...Having played the board game with human opponents, it appears to me that more often than once, a team will quit in the middle of the game because it thinks it has lost, and has no patience to play a "lost game" to completion...

Maybe a (very imperfect) solution to this problem when using NetPlay or PBEM would be some 'early end-game' procedure which could allow a team (NetPlay) or the single player for one side (NetPlay or PBEM) to stop the game in such a way that it could then be saved by the player(s) on the other side as a game playable against the AI opponent.

I don't know what amount of work such a system would imply, so it may be not really practical or even possible...

(in reply to yvesp)

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 1:23:07 PM

Greywolf

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Hum, basically what you want is a way to play a saved games into another setting than what it started.

I think there is no real trouble having a player taking on the spot of a AI.

On the reverse IIRC , and I think Steve will correct me otherwise, the AiO use extensive save of his decisionary process not to be taken into a loop. It is clear that taking mid-turn the place of a human player wont probably be possible. Taking back the situation from turn start will be hard and I think not possible because the AI is set to choose a strategy from start not to interpret the map to recognize what the previous player had in mind and started...

About the quitter I think that this is a real problem in Human vs Human ( and I do my part of quitting too, sadly ). Especially in longer game when the fun factor for one side is gone. But if you check how you play against a computer you will realise that there is plenty of game you do quit over him ( because it was getting too long, because you were winning and there was no more challenge, etc...). The thing is the Computer isn't cheap enough to throw the towel and have nothing best to do of his time than playing an hopeless situation.

The cruces of the WWII games in that the Axis power will be losing at the end, a historic simulation will be bell shaped with Axis initial push, Allies Nadir, Axis Zenith then Axis going down while allies crush them. Only hope for a "win" is on time ( and I think the real life Axis do a pretty good job, certainly above average ). World In Flames alleviate this fact by seriously nerfing the allies production (of several magnitude) and boosting the Axis production to war level from the start. But the end game still is painfull for the Axis as they try not to be overruned before the clock ring. So quitting when the tide turn isn't so uncommon...

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 1:36:19 PM

Jagdtiger14

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Since there is a commitment to having an AI(really I could care less if there is an AI and think it is a waste of time), I hope the AI is nothing more than a "beginner" level ability. Trying to get it better than that is and will take much more time. At some point if every non-AI part of the game is ready to go, and the AI is workable, MWiF should be released.
C

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(in reply to Greywolf)

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 2:42:17 PM

chacal83000

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Hmmm AIs and games, particularly wargames.... A good AI is rare, you can fin good AIs in Chess games but chess are so 'simple' in comparaison to our beloved wargames... and Wif particularly...
I hope for a decent AI but I will not be surprised if it is not, it's just like there is no really good AI in wargames I know. But an AI that give somme illusion will be already OK.

And yes we 'll wait, no problem but please don't drop the AI, like a lot of people there I just lack of time to play over internet, sometimes I'm not even near a internet location and MWiF will be good for that moments !

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 3:26:46 PM

fallgelb

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I would like to have an AI because I want to test some new strategies, although i don't think, that this AI and furthermore any AI can compete with a human opponent. I think that it is impossible for the AI to run the game for 36 turns or so. Every little fault in the beginning of a game will cumulate and can result in desaster after a year or two (reaction to built-queues, reaction to landings, built-up of NAVS i.e. Condors in France to threaten Faroer gap...).
Espacially the supply in the game is crucial and sometimes you ought to maintain supply at any cost (normandy beachhead), sometimes you should save CONV and TRS (Italy and Lybia, CW in a fierce BOA). The AI can decide in these situations only if you can teach it and I cannot inmagine how I could teach these considerations to anybody.

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Post #: 1071

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 4:02:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Since there is a commitment to having an AI(really I could care less if there is an AI and think it is a waste of time), I hope the AI is nothing more than a "beginner" level ability.� Trying to get it better than that is and will take much more time.� At some point if every non-AI part of the game is ready to go, and the AI is workable, MWiF should be released.
C

No AI, no sale for me could care less about Pbem and net play, now doesnt that sound just great! Jagdtiger if Matrix listened to that one they would be in deep trouble, but I do respect your feelings. In my way of thinking [could be wrong] this game is not for just the board game WIF people but for everyone. The board game players have to have the most patience of any player in any game to play WIF around a dining room table for years or however long it takes to play a game. Many other players dont have that kind of commitment, they might be like me a beer and pretzle player who likes quick fast games.
I know I have to change to play WIF and learn patience. The AI poor or good would help me learn the game maybe not to your capability but just to get me by. Jadg you might consider this, there might be quite a few people out there in the good old USA that dont have internet [god forbid] and their purchase of this game would really help Matrix. I would gladly accept a decent AI with improvments over a period of time if the game was to be released soon. Just an opinion!

Willy

< Message edited by bo -- 6/3/2009 6:01:11 PM >

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1072

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 5:28:04 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

Hum, basically what you want is a way to play a saved games into another setting than what it started.

I think there is no real trouble having a player taking on the spot of a AI.

On the reverse IIRC , and I think Steve will correct me otherwise, the AiO use extensive save of his decisionary process not to be taken into a loop. It is clear that taking mid-turn the place of a human player wont probably be possible. Taking back the situation from turn start will be hard and I think not possible because the AI is set to choose a strategy from start not to interpret the map to recognize what the previous player had in mind and started...

...

Yes.

If you ask a grandmaster chess player to quickly memorize a mid-game chess position he can do a great job if the players were pretty good. Positions generated by poorer players are slightly harder, and random placement of pieces on the board is extremely hard for him to recreate from memory.

My point here is that a game position has an underlying structure that is a function of the logic the players are using. The AIO understands its own logic, but human decisions can be quite bewildering - not only to the AIO but to other players.

Even for the AIO, to play WIF even modestly well, you have to know what you are doing.

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 6:41:26 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bfontes

It looks like Microsoft might be able to get Windows 7 out before this game is ready. So, will the game come with the "Windows 7 Ready" seal of approval?

Windows 7 is still in Beta, will be released probably this autumn or winter only. I tried to install the Windows 7 RC 1 on a Dell dekstop and the desktop was rebooting endlessly.

It's Windows 7 which needs a seal of approval yet.

(in reply to bfontes)

Post #: 1074

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 7:52:26 PM

Kitakami

Posts: 1302
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I have Windows 7 RC 1 installed on a 4-core AMD machine. It runs another Matrix game flawlessy (though it uses only one core to run it). It is a video editing station and, so far, I am far happier with 64-bit Windows 7 than I ever was with XP 64-bit... gaming included and almost at the top of the list.

One item I would suggest you look at (and I do not know if it is possible) is for the code to check if the machine has more than one core, and dstribute processes if it does. ut that does not depend on the version of Windows you are running on.

Just my 2 cents :)

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 8:07:01 PM

Jagdtiger14

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Bo...personally I dont want or need an AI. But I'm sure Matrix is already committed to having one, so "No AI, No Sale" will not apply to anyone. The question now is...how good of an AI will it be? I'm not a programmer so I have no idea, but I'm guessing that the better the AI, the longer it will take for this game to come out(seems logical?). So at this point I prefer a bare bones AI that can accomplish simple tasks from 1939 to 1945 and behave more as a tutorial to get this game released sooner(assuming every other non-AI aspect of the game is ready to go). The question is, how greedy do pro-AI players want to get?..."Beginner Level AI, No Sale"?
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Since there is a commitment to having an AI(really I could care less if there is an AI and think it is a waste of time), I hope the AI is nothing more than a "beginner" level ability.� Trying to get it better than that is and will take much more time.� At some point if every non-AI part of the game is ready to go, and the AI is workable, MWiF should be released.
C

No AI, no sale for me could care less about Pbem and net play, now doesnt that sound just great! Jagdtiger if Matrix listened to that one they would be in deep trouble, but I do respect your feelings. In my way of thinking [could be wrong] this game is not for just the board game WIF people but for everyone. The board game players have to have the most patience of any player in any game to play WIF around a dining room table for years or however long it takes to play a game. Many other players dont have that kind of commitment, they might be like me a beer and pretzle player who likes quick fast games.
I know I have to change to play WIF and learn patience. The AI poor or good would help me learn the game maybe not to your capability but just to get me by. Jadg you might consider this, there might be quite a few people out there in the good old USA that dont have internet [god forbid] and their purchase of this game would really help Matrix. I would gladly accept a decent AI with improvments over a period of time if the game was to be released soon. Just an opinion!

Willy

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(in reply to bo)

Post #: 1076

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 8:32:46 PM

MajorDude

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I am not really all that surprised that the July schedule date turned into more of a stumbling block than a finish line.

I am surprised by so much attention being given to the AIO as I thought it was already well in the works - I had no idea that the AIO was so inexistent.

I must also say that solitaire and hotseat play may not have been attributed the proper numbers if it was a "this OR that" question format. Sure, we all want to play against a slick AIO, but there are many players who also enjoy hotseat co-op features as well as challenging solo play that forces us to look at our countries and their setup and find ways of cracking it.

In that vein, please do remember the importance of hotseat and solo play, and not just throw all attention to climbing an AIO mountain.

I am afraid now that, because of this AIO shift, 4 months will not be enough. Contrary to many other hex-based WWII battle sims, not only does a mwif AIO have to be good at 'local' combat responsiveness, but it also has to have this same level of responsiveness on a strategic and long-term production level that is just not that easy to implement. For example, how and when to 'feint', how and when to defend far-flung areas, or just decide to leave them to their own devices. While I am sure it 'can' be done, I just don't know 'how' it can be done, tested and debugged, in a 'few months' time.

I agree with those who say releasing an 'unfinished' game product is not a good thing. I just hope this project does not get pushed back for another 9 months to a year in a search for the 'perfect' AIO...

Good luck tackling this one Steve.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1077

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 8:41:50 PM

Anendrue

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Thw site will definitely be a community site. I will be using the community builder software to assist with this.

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RE: When? - 6/3/2009 9:50:09 PM

gridley

Posts: 126
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From: Caledon
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Thanks for the update Steve.

Kind of figured July 27th was probably going to be pushed back from following the site more closely now.

However, I was somewhat surprised on the breakdown you have given for the next four months...

Anyway, good luck and thanks again.

(in reply to Anendrue)

Post #: 1079

RE: When? - 6/3/2009 10:08:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Bo...personally I dont want or need an AI. But I'm sure Matrix is already committed to having one, so "No AI, No Sale" will not apply to anyone. The question now is...how good of an AI will it be? I'm not a programmer so I have no idea, but I'm guessing that the better the AI, the longer it will take for this game to come out(seems logical?). So at this point I prefer a bare bones AI that can accomplish simple tasks from 1939 to 1945 and behave more as a tutorial to get this game released sooner(assuming every other non-AI aspect of the game is ready to go). The question is, how greedy do pro-AI players want to get?..."Beginner Level AI, No Sale"?
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Since there is a commitment to having an AI(really I could care less if there is an AI and think it is a waste of time), I hope the AI is nothing more than a "beginner" level ability.� Trying to get it better than that is and will take much more time.� At some point if every non-AI part of the game is ready to go, and the AI is workable, MWiF should be released.
C

No AI, no sale for me could care less about Pbem and net play, now doesnt that sound just great! Jagdtiger if Matrix listened to that one they would be in deep trouble, but I do respect your feelings. In my way of thinking [could be wrong] this game is not for just the board game WIF people but for everyone. The board game players have to have the most patience of any player in any game to play WIF around a dining room table for years or however long it takes to play a game. Many other players dont have that kind of commitment, they might be like me a beer and pretzle player who likes quick fast games.
I know I have to change to play WIF and learn patience. The AI poor or good would help me learn the game maybe not to your capability but just to get me by. Jadg you might consider this, there might be quite a few people out there in the good old USA that dont have internet [god forbid] and their purchase of this game would really help Matrix. I would gladly accept a decent AI with improvments over a period of time if the game was to be released soon. Just an opinion!

Willy

Hey Jadg tough opinions here all the way around and I feel good opinions, you said "so no AI no sale will not apply to anyone" Huh? did you mean not everyone? Not sure what you meant, also why do you neeed this game anyway dont you have vassal over the internet. I looked it over and if anyone knew the rules I feel it is very playable [WIF]

Willy