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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

 
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/23/2008 10:23:06 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
Here is current status on the Naval Review Details and Naval Review Summary forms.

The NRD is almost complete, except for:
1 - When you move the cursor over a unit being transported, the unit data panel shows the info for the transporting unit. Correcting this is straightforward.
2 - The use of the check boxes has a bug. You don't get to see both Axis and Allied units at the same time. Not too hard to fix, I suspect.
3 - How to display TRS units that are carrying 2 divisions hasn't been worked out yet. My current solution (not coded, becuase I am not happy with it) is to show the TRS unit twice on the left and the two transported divisions on the right, one per TRS image.

Note that the button on the NRD form for Naval Summary now works and brings up the NRS form. The scroll bars now work correctly, though none are shown in this screen shot.

The NRS needs a lot of work still. In particular:
4 - I have no code supporting the Sea Areas display. First I want to get the Port stuff perfect.
5 - The code for the check boxes is unwritten, and so is the code for all the buttons.
6 - I am not sure whether the port symbols should be above or below the port columns. I am thinking that below is bettter. Using the port symbols is a little bit of inspiration this morning. If the port is captured or iced in that will be shown. It is possible for Leningrad to be iced in, which is why its symbol is different. This will also differentiate major ports from minor ports at a glance.
7 - The First/Previous/Next/Last buttons are now for cycling through either the ports of the sea areas. This is a change from when I last showed this form. Basically, the design now is for the player to click on a port or sea area column and then click on one of the navigational buttons to change the column.
8 - Which columns are possibilities for being displayed depends heavily on the check boxes. The program starts by generating a list of ports and a list of sea areas based on the check boxes. Unless, 'Empty' is checked, only ports/sea areas that contain at least one naval unit that satisfy the filters are included in the list.
9 - The Defense row is spurious. Right now it duplicate the # of Ships entry. Something else to write code for.
10 - I am unhappy with the label Cargo. What this number represents is a count of air and land units aboard naval units. Carrier air units assigned to carriers are counted in the total. I am thinking of using 'Aboard', 'Transported', or 'Carried' instead - though none of those is especailly pleasing to me.
11 - The Save/Restore button will be split into Save and Restore buttons. The purpose of these is to save a configuration of port and sea area columns so you can bring up the latest information on them whenever you want, without having to reselect each column.

Comments?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1021
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 1:40:35 AM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
Some comments:
When a ship has 2 cargo units, the ship could be shown once, but the cargo could be shown beneath each other.

Like this:

S C1
  C2

Where S is the ship, and C1 and C2 are the cargo units. This would apply both to cv planes and divs on transports. Showing the actual ship twice would lead to confusion.

As for how to display cargo, I would suggest splitting it up. When evaluating strength of navies, I feel that at least the following info is vital:
- Number of CV planes
- Total air-to sea for CV planes
- Best air-to-air value
- Total tac factors

For transports, this could be split as follows:
- Number of corps
- Number of divs
- Max invasion strength (Calculate the best 2 corps + 1 div strength, only counting marines, divs and inf class attacking from amph, if playing with amphs).

In particular the cv information will be more important than for instance max move/max range, imo, except for checking max range for enemy subs. In any case, irrelevant entries should be removed, so that if you are just looking at subs, you will not not see the No of BB/CA/CL/CV entries, etc.

Btw, I think more filters would be needed. Instead of the mine/axis/allied, I would want to select specific country (checking off germany + italy, for instance), or CW + US. In addition, there should be a transport mode/filter This would show ALL transports, as well as SCS actually loaded with divs. For both devensive and offensive puroses, it would be nice to be able to view only units in reach of a given sea zone, with a subfilter allowing to specify section. That way, you could easily check how many surface points or airt to sea points you or an opponent could bring to, for instance, the 2-box in south china sea.

Or, the player could want to know what would be hte max invasion strength that could reach the 3 box of the western med. (or 4 box, if it is raining).


< Message edited by hakon -- 3/24/2008 1:43:05 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1022
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 2:17:23 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon
Some comments:
When a ship has 2 cargo units, the ship could be shown once, but the cargo could be shown beneath each other.

Like this:

S C1
  C2

I support this solution too.

quote:

Btw, I think more filters would be needed. Instead of the mine/axis/allied, I would want to select specific country (checking off germany + italy, for instance), or CW + US. In addition, there should be a transport mode/filter This would show ALL transports, as well as SCS actually loaded with divs. For both devensive and offensive puroses, it would be nice to be able to view only units in reach of a given sea zone, with a subfilter allowing to specify section. That way, you could easily check how many surface points or airt to sea points you or an opponent could bring to, for instance, the 2-box in south china sea.

Or, the player could want to know what would be hte max invasion strength that could reach the 3 box of the western med. (or 4 box, if it is raining).

Steve, why not add a button that links to the Filter Form, where there is an extensive list of ways to filter down counters ? This form would have mine / Axis / Allied and More, and when you clik on more, this goes to the Filter Form (already existing).

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1023
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 2:39:27 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
6 - I am not sure whether the port symbols should be above or below the port columns. I am thinking that below is bettter. Using the port symbols is a little bit of inspiration this morning. If the port is captured or iced in that will be shown. It is possible for Leningrad to be iced in, which is why its symbol is different. This will also differentiate major ports from minor ports at a glance.

Putting the ports symbol is a good idea.
I like them where they are on this picture, but I would prefer them smaller and withoug the white background, with a transparent background preferably. But that's not a biggie.

quote:

9 - The Defense row is spurious. Right now it duplicate the # of Ships entry. Something else to write code for.

See my comment below.

quote:

10 - I am unhappy with the label Cargo. What this number represents is a count of air and land units aboard naval units. Carrier air units assigned to carriers are counted in the total. I am thinking of using 'Aboard', 'Transported', or 'Carried' instead - though none of those is especailly pleasing to me.

I think that Carrier Planes should not even appear here. This would simplify. They are part of the Carrier after all, so they are normal here and their number is quite irrelevant. The number in the air to air or air to sea rows will show if there are a lot of airpower with this assembly of ships, the number of CVP is not important.
For the other cargo, I would split it into only 2 categories : Invasion capable, debark only capable (not invasion capable). Don't care if they are planes or troops, what matters is the number of troops that can invade. High number in the "invasion capable" column means danger for the enemy, and critical importance for the owner. High number in the "debark only" column only mean more targets for the enemy.

quote:

11 - The Save/Restore button will be split into Save and Restore buttons. The purpose of these is to save a configuration of port and sea area columns so you can bring up the latest information on them whenever you want, without having to reselect each column.

Comments?

I love these Forms.

Some comments so that I can love them more.

On the Naval Review Summary Form :

I would personaly prefer if the number of ships (and also all the other "number of", number of carriers, number of battleships, etc...) be displayed on the top rows. Then their statistics would be displayed in the lower rows. If possible, drawing a line between the "numbers of", and the statistics would be good to better separate them. Idealy (for me) the movement & range would be the bottom rows, as they are important so putting them in the end row make them easy to see immediately.

About the Sea Area part of the Naval Review Summary, wouldn't it be good if it was not only broken down by Sea Area, but also by Sea Box Section ?


Now, specificaly for some Rows :

The Defense row should not be a sum of the defenses of the ships. An average would be better. But not very informative either I suspect. Maybe have it deleted entirely. What is the importance of knowing the overall "defense factor" of an assemby of ships after all ? Given the fact that ships are usually mixed, it will always be a number in the 4-6 range, and that's all.

How is calculated the Air to air row ? If it is the air to air "power" of the Port, it should not include CVP. If it is the air to air "power" of the fleet in beeing that could be assembled from all the ships in the port, it should not include land-based fighters based on this port. For a task force at sea, the air to air row of the Naval Review Summary should include both land based fighters that are on an air to sea mission currently plus the CVPs of the fleet.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1024
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 3:09:30 AM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
On a related topic:
What happened to the discussion about task forces? Is that discussion closed?

It seems to me, that in practice, most naval movment will be done by using task forces, and that most of the time spent performing naval movement will in fact actually be spent moving task force markers instead of individual ships. Assuming that the user is not limited in the number of task forces that he can create, and assuming that he can name them freely, I would for instance want to set up an escort system as follows:

Consider the escort situation in the Mid Atlantic. I would starty by defining 3 task forces, as follows:
Mid Atl 1
Mid Atl 2
Mid Atl 3

To each of these I would assign 1-3 (1 ship in a task force should be ok) cruisers capable of reaching the 4 box of the sea zone. . Initially, I would send 1 task force to each of the 0, 1 and 4 boxes. At the start of every turn, I would send the one that had to return to base out to the 4 section again, while sliding the 3 section down to the 1 section.

Now, while moving, it would be great if I could right-click on a section of a sea zone, and get a menu option called "Move ships here". If selecting this command, I would get a list of task forces and ships that can reach the section I am right clicking. (Task forces on top, if sorting alphabetically). This would speed things up quite a bit, especially for people with relatively small screens. For even faster play, it should be possible in the task force management screen, to define at least one, possibly several sea areas where the task force responsibility lies. The units with responsibility for a sea zone would always show up first when using the command "Move ships here".

When right clicking on a ship or task force in port, one should get a "Move to sea zone" command if the ship is in port, or "Move to port" and "Slide down" commands when already at sea. "Move to sea zone" should also give the possiblity to specify section. "Slide down" should have a keyboard shortcut, too, I guess. Other context sensitive commands, could be "Remove from task force", "Move to task force X", "Reorganize unit".

When manipulating task forces, I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate to organize units side by side in rows, instead of in columns. For instance, a report could read someting like this:

-- Western Medetteranian, section 3 (friendly)----------------
Ships No 28  LBA No 3  Surf 72  ATS 12  AA 51  SB 31
CV 5 BB 7 CA 12 CL 2 TRS 2 Corps 1 Divs 3
-- Task forces ---------------------------------------------
MED CV fleet, Med BB battle group (use icons)
-- Land Based Air ------------------------------------------
LBA1, LBA2, LBA3
-- Transports ---------------------------------------------
AMPH1 INF 1 TRS1 DIV1 DIV2 SCS 1 DIV3
-- Carriers ------------------------------------------------
CV1 cvp1 cvp2, CV2 cvp3, and so on (The ones in task forces should be partly transparant, to show this)
-- Battleships ---------------------------------------------
BB1, BB2 and so on
-- Heavy Cruisers ------------------------------------------
CA1, CA2, CA3,....
-- Light Cruisers ------------------------------------------
CL1, CL2 .....

Doing it horisontally like this, would allow for lots more information, at the cost of having to use a scroll bar to scroll down a bit once in a while. Howering over task forces would display aggregate information, while double clicking on them would expand the task force as separate lines in the report. It would also make it easy to move ships between task forces, either by drag and drop, or by right clicking and selecting the "Move to task force X" command.

Cheers
Hakon

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1025
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 5:54:58 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

Some comments:
When a ship has 2 cargo units, the ship could be shown once, but the cargo could be shown beneath each other.

Like this:

S C1
  C2

Where S is the ship, and C1 and C2 are the cargo units. This would apply both to cv planes and divs on transports. Showing the actual ship twice would lead to confusion.

As for how to display cargo, I would suggest splitting it up. When evaluating strength of navies, I feel that at least the following info is vital:
- Number of CV planes
- Total air-to sea for CV planes
- Best air-to-air value
- Total tac factors

For transports, this could be split as follows:
- Number of corps
- Number of divs
- Max invasion strength (Calculate the best 2 corps + 1 div strength, only counting marines, divs and inf class attacking from amph, if playing with amphs).

In particular the cv information will be more important than for instance max move/max range, imo, except for checking max range for enemy subs. In any case, irrelevant entries should be removed, so that if you are just looking at subs, you will not not see the No of BB/CA/CL/CV entries, etc.

Btw, I think more filters would be needed. Instead of the mine/axis/allied, I would want to select specific country (checking off germany + italy, for instance), or CW + US. In addition, there should be a transport mode/filter This would show ALL transports, as well as SCS actually loaded with divs. For both devensive and offensive puroses, it would be nice to be able to view only units in reach of a given sea zone, with a subfilter allowing to specify section. That way, you could easily check how many surface points or airt to sea points you or an opponent could bring to, for instance, the 2-box in south china sea.

Or, the player could want to know what would be hte max invasion strength that could reach the 3 box of the western med. (or 4 box, if it is raining).


1 - Yes - I agree on the proposed layout for 2 divs on 1 TRS.

2 - I've moved the # of ship stuff to the top and the port symbols to the bottom. I think this addresses Patrice's comments on those two items.

3 - I found my old notes on what should be in each cell. Best Air-2-air is what we decided a while back and that is what I have changed that to.

4 - Similarly, the defense # is an average now, based on the number of ships. Not real useful, but not completely useless.

5 - While it would be nice to make the form more detailed and elaborate there is no room available for doing so. If the player wants to know more specifics, he will have to look at the detailed form (NRD) instead of the NRS; or individual units instead of the NRD.

6 - I am not keen on using the elaborate filtering system available at other places in the game for the NRD or the NRS forms. Filtering by enemy country is of some use, but not a whole lot. There are never Chinese naval units, and the USSR navy rarely gets involved in combat situations that involve its allies. Likewise the Japanese are pretty much in a world of their own. Even the German and Italian naval units appear in the same port or sea area rarely (subs being an exception). The French/US/CW are the 3 major powers whose navies spend a lot of time together, but I believe that differentiating them on these forms, any more than the given filters already do, isn't crucial.

7 - The Transport column is for any naval units carrying other units (except for carriers with carrier air units). So an SCS unit carrying a division appears in this column. If you assign a division to a battleship, the battleship moves from the Battleship column to the Transport column.

8 - I do not intend to create forms that do elaborate calculations for the player, such as which units can get to the 3 box of a given sea area. My philosohy is that the player plays the game, if that involves figuring stuff out, well, that is how it is done when you play over the board too. A chess program doesn't highlight all the possible squares that a knight can reach in 3 moves. Or which pieces can be brought to bear on King's rook 7 within 2 moves.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1026
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 6:14:42 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
6 - I am not sure whether the port symbols should be above or below the port columns. I am thinking that below is bettter. Using the port symbols is a little bit of inspiration this morning. If the port is captured or iced in that will be shown. It is possible for Leningrad to be iced in, which is why its symbol is different. This will also differentiate major ports from minor ports at a glance.

Putting the ports symbol is a good idea.
I like them where they are on this picture, but I would prefer them smaller and withoug the white background, with a transparent background preferably. But that's not a biggie.

quote:

9 - The Defense row is spurious. Right now it duplicate the # of Ships entry. Something else to write code for.

See my comment below.

quote:

10 - I am unhappy with the label Cargo. What this number represents is a count of air and land units aboard naval units. Carrier air units assigned to carriers are counted in the total. I am thinking of using 'Aboard', 'Transported', or 'Carried' instead - though none of those is especailly pleasing to me.

I think that Carrier Planes should not even appear here. This would simplify. They are part of the Carrier after all, so they are normal here and their number is quite irrelevant. The number in the air to air or air to sea rows will show if there are a lot of airpower with this assembly of ships, the number of CVP is not important.
For the other cargo, I would split it into only 2 categories : Invasion capable, debark only capable (not invasion capable). Don't care if they are planes or troops, what matters is the number of troops that can invade. High number in the "invasion capable" column means danger for the enemy, and critical importance for the owner. High number in the "debark only" column only mean more targets for the enemy.

quote:

11 - The Save/Restore button will be split into Save and Restore buttons. The purpose of these is to save a configuration of port and sea area columns so you can bring up the latest information on them whenever you want, without having to reselect each column.

Comments?

I love these Forms.

Some comments so that I can love them more.

On the Naval Review Summary Form :

I would personaly prefer if the number of ships (and also all the other "number of", number of carriers, number of battleships, etc...) be displayed on the top rows. Then their statistics would be displayed in the lower rows. If possible, drawing a line between the "numbers of", and the statistics would be good to better separate them. Idealy (for me) the movement & range would be the bottom rows, as they are important so putting them in the end row make them easy to see immediately.

About the Sea Area part of the Naval Review Summary, wouldn't it be good if it was not only broken down by Sea Area, but also by Sea Box Section ?


Now, specificaly for some Rows :

The Defense row should not be a sum of the defenses of the ships. An average would be better. But not very informative either I suspect. Maybe have it deleted entirely. What is the importance of knowing the overall "defense factor" of an assemby of ships after all ? Given the fact that ships are usually mixed, it will always be a number in the 4-6 range, and that's all.

How is calculated the Air to air row ? If it is the air to air "power" of the Port, it should not include CVP. If it is the air to air "power" of the fleet in beeing that could be assembled from all the ships in the port, it should not include land-based fighters based on this port. For a task force at sea, the air to air row of the Naval Review Summary should include both land based fighters that are on an air to sea mission currently plus the CVPs of the fleet.


I changed the Cargo label to # Carried. What I can do here is put 2 numbers in the cell. I don't think there is room for 3, especially since one of them could be 2 digits. There are 3 candidates: # of carrier air units, # of units that can invade, and # of units that are neither of the first 2. I think I'll go with # of carrier air units and merge the last two (non-carrier air units). If you are thinking about being invaded, you should go to the NRD form and not be making decisions using the NRS form. So, for example, 5/2 would mean 5 carrier air units and 2 other units aboard TRS, AMPH, or SCS units. You like?

Differentiating within sea box sections should be done by bringing up the detailed map for the sea area and then passing the cursor over each sea box section while the NRD form is visible. The NRD form then shows just those units in the sea box section. The player should be looking at the detailed map if he is worrying about invasions or naval combat. Relying on the NRD or NRS forms to provide that level detail would be a bad idea for the player, and too complex for me (as a programmer) to anticipate all the player's possible concerns. Hakon listed 3 or 4 off the top of his head, and I could add another 3 or 4 myself very quickly. If invasions or naval combat is what you are figuring out, use the NRS and NRD to get a handle on where you should look more closely, and then use the detailed map in combination with the NRD to really understand the current situation in a sea area.

I am up in the air () about showing air-2-air strength. There are a lot of variables involved which presents a lot of possibilities for what this # means. I am going to go with "best air-to-air" for a single unit. Even if that means it is a carrier air unit in a port - which I understand isn't logical. My reasoning is that it is better for the form to show a simple statistic that is easy for a player to understand, rather than a more 'accurate' number that requires an in-depth undestanding of the game rules.

Along those lines, the ASW number worries me. It is accurate, and a real boon to the player because the calculation is so complex. On the other hand, it is likely to be baffling to a new player because he won't be able to figure out from whence it comes. Oh well, I'll leave it as is.

The Help button for these 2 forms is going to have it work cut out for it. I expect both of them to be quite long.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1027
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 6:26:15 AM   
Norman42


Posts: 244
Joined: 2/9/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

4 - Similarly, the defense # is an average now, based on the number of ships. Not real useful, but not completely useless.


I can't think of any situation or calculation where knowing the average or total defence factors of a fleet stack would be useful. By definition it is a value that is only ever used on a per individual unit basis, it is never added, subtracted, or multiplied by any other value.

Can probably save yourself some (albeit small) bit of space on the form and delete this value entirely, since at best it will just be a confusing value (to neophytes) to show.

_____________________________

-------------

C.L.Norman

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1028
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 6:39:41 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

On a related topic:
What happened to the discussion about task forces? Is that discussion closed?

It seems to me, that in practice, most naval movment will be done by using task forces, and that most of the time spent performing naval movement will in fact actually be spent moving task force markers instead of individual ships. Assuming that the user is not limited in the number of task forces that he can create, and assuming that he can name them freely, I would for instance want to set up an escort system as follows:

Consider the escort situation in the Mid Atlantic. I would starty by defining 3 task forces, as follows:
Mid Atl 1
Mid Atl 2
Mid Atl 3

To each of these I would assign 1-3 (1 ship in a task force should be ok) cruisers capable of reaching the 4 box of the sea zone. . Initially, I would send 1 task force to each of the 0, 1 and 4 boxes. At the start of every turn, I would send the one that had to return to base out to the 4 section again, while sliding the 3 section down to the 1 section.

Now, while moving, it would be great if I could right-click on a section of a sea zone, and get a menu option called "Move ships here". If selecting this command, I would get a list of task forces and ships that can reach the section I am right clicking. (Task forces on top, if sorting alphabetically). This would speed things up quite a bit, especially for people with relatively small screens. For even faster play, it should be possible in the task force management screen, to define at least one, possibly several sea areas where the task force responsibility lies. The units with responsibility for a sea zone would always show up first when using the command "Move ships here".

When right clicking on a ship or task force in port, one should get a "Move to sea zone" command if the ship is in port, or "Move to port" and "Slide down" commands when already at sea. "Move to sea zone" should also give the possiblity to specify section. "Slide down" should have a keyboard shortcut, too, I guess. Other context sensitive commands, could be "Remove from task force", "Move to task force X", "Reorganize unit".

When manipulating task forces, I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate to organize units side by side in rows, instead of in columns. For instance, a report could read someting like this:

-- Western Medetteranian, section 3 (friendly)----------------
Ships No 28  LBA No 3  Surf 72  ATS 12  AA 51  SB 31
CV 5 BB 7 CA 12 CL 2 TRS 2 Corps 1 Divs 3
-- Task forces ---------------------------------------------
MED CV fleet, Med BB battle group (use icons)
-- Land Based Air ------------------------------------------
LBA1, LBA2, LBA3
-- Transports ---------------------------------------------
AMPH1 INF 1 TRS1 DIV1 DIV2 SCS 1 DIV3
-- Carriers ------------------------------------------------
CV1 cvp1 cvp2, CV2 cvp3, and so on (The ones in task forces should be partly transparant, to show this)
-- Battleships ---------------------------------------------
BB1, BB2 and so on
-- Heavy Cruisers ------------------------------------------
CA1, CA2, CA3,....
-- Light Cruisers ------------------------------------------
CL1, CL2 .....

Doing it horisontally like this, would allow for lots more information, at the cost of having to use a scroll bar to scroll down a bit once in a while. Howering over task forces would display aggregate information, while double clicking on them would expand the task force as separate lines in the report. It would also make it easy to move ships between task forces, either by drag and drop, or by right clicking and selecting the "Move to task force X" command.

Cheers
Hakon

Task Forces are next on my to-do list for form development, once I get NRD and NRS done..

Hakon, I really like and respect your ideas on game strategy, but for design of a player interface? Well. The horizontal presentation would be disaster in my opinion.

But keep giving me ideas, some of the best features in the game so far have come from forum members - not me. Although, of course, I do reserve the right to choose which ones to use.

For Task Forces I have already started building the Task Force Details and Task Force Summary forms to mimic the NRD and NRS forms closely. The big advantage in doing so is that once the player gets comfortable with one of these two sets of forms the other set will be understood easily.

The general idea is that you bring up a port/sea area section box/setup tray using the NRD form and a Task Force Form next to it. That is why I have gone to great lengths to make all 4 of these forms no larger than 1/2 a screen, so 2 of them can be displayed side by side. The player can then select units from the port/sea/area/setup tray to define a new task force, or select units from one or the other and then click on the Transfer Units button to move them from one to other. Note that the task force has to be in same the port/sea area section box/setup tray for the transfer to take place. This is purely an administrative mechanism and has zero to do with the rules of the game for moving units.

When you look at the map or review a port/sea area/sea area section, each task force will appear as a single counter - there is a separate bitmapped image for task force 'units'.

Then the player can "pick up" a task force and move it about the map. Task force definitions will remain in effect until the player disbands them, or unit losses reduce it to a single unit. They last from impulse to impulse and from turn to turn. That way moving TFs out to patrol and back to port should be easy.

TFs can have notes (plain text) attached to them by the player for his reference as to what the TF is suppose to do each turn. In that regard they are like any other unit in the game.

I do not intend to 'automate' the moving of units on the map based on 'instructions' stored with a unit. That falls into what I call "playing the game", rather than watching the computer move all your units around for you.
----
But the way, I am avoiding drag and drop if possible. In my expereice it is hard to code so it is 'bullet-proof', and has great potential for bugs.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1029
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 6:46:03 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42


quote:

4 - Similarly, the defense # is an average now, based on the number of ships. Not real useful, but not completely useless.


I can't think of any situation or calculation where knowing the average or total defence factors of a fleet stack would be useful. By definition it is a value that is only ever used on a per individual unit basis, it is never added, subtracted, or multiplied by any other value.

Can probably save yourself some (albeit small) bit of space on the form and delete this value entirely, since at best it will just be a confusing value (to neophytes) to show.

Yeah, I agree.

But if it is not shown, the neophyte is going look for it and wonder why it can't be found. "There is the Attack number, where is the Defense number? Stupid programmer!"

There is the odd occasion when the average defense number is large (> 5) or small (<4). It might be useful then.

======

I'll try to get more of this form working and show some more examples, that might be helpful in pointing whether this is ever going to be useful. And other possible weaknesses in the current presentation.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Norman42)
Post #: 1030
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 11:44:29 AM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Shannon:

You are the game designer and chief developer, and as such, you are the boss. It seems that we have ad simmilar discussiona before, usually with me having proposals for tools/screens/functionality that I think would speed up play for the player, reducing time spent on CW/US/Japanese naval impulses, checking for air cover, trying different setups to see what hex you can get the strongest land attack against, etc. I think you've rejected every one of these proposals based on the "I dont want the computer to play the game for the player" argument. (Which I clearly don't agree with).

Since it seems that our disagreements are philosophical in nature, it's probably quite pointless for me to participate in these UI threads.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1031
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 12:25:54 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon
Now, while moving, it would be great if I could right-click on a section of a sea zone, and get a menu option called "Move ships here". If selecting this command, I would get a list of task forces and ships that can reach the section I am right clicking. (Task forces on top, if sorting alphabetically). This would speed things up quite a bit, especially for people with relatively small screens. For even faster play, it should be possible in the task force management screen, to define at least one, possibly several sea areas where the task force responsibility lies. The units with responsibility for a sea zone would always show up first when using the command "Move ships here".

Wow, great idea !

quote:

When right clicking on a ship or task force in port, one should get a "Move to sea zone" command if the ship is in port, or "Move to port" and "Slide down" commands when already at sea. "Move to sea zone" should also give the possiblity to specify section. "Slide down" should have a keyboard shortcut, too, I guess. Other context sensitive commands, could be "Remove from task force", "Move to task force X", "Reorganize unit".

Great ideas again.
About the "Slide down", maybe it is not usefull as this is the default for ships & TF staying at sea.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1032
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 12:36:26 PM   
Froonp


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Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed the Cargo label to # Carried. What I can do here is put 2 numbers in the cell. I don't think there is room for 3, especially since one of them could be 2 digits. There are 3 candidates: # of carrier air units, # of units that can invade, and # of units that are neither of the first 2. I think I'll go with # of carrier air units and merge the last two (non-carrier air units). If you are thinking about being invaded, you should go to the NRD form and not be making decisions using the NRS form. So, for example, 5/2 would mean 5 carrier air units and 2 other units aboard TRS, AMPH, or SCS units. You like?

No, I don't, because the number of carrier air unit is totaly useless.
You have the air to air and the air to sea rows to have an indication of the air power of that assembly of ships, the number of CVP is totaly irrelevant. If 2 numbers can be written, best is to write "cannot invade" / "can invade". Otherwise stay with 1 number only.

quote:

Differentiating within sea box sections should be done by bringing up the detailed map for the sea area and then passing the cursor over each sea box section while the NRD form is visible. The NRD form then shows just those units in the sea box section.

Why not also have a right click in the sea area bring a menu where you can choose any of the 10 sea boxes to appear in the NRD ? Example : Rignt click in the Solomons Sea Area, and choose Axis 4, and I see only units from that Sea Box section in the NRD.
I ask this because it can beclumsy to look for the Sea Area's Sea Box Sections.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1033
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 12:41:24 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When you look at the map or review a port/sea area/sea area section, each task force will appear as a single counter - there is a separate bitmapped image for task force 'units'.

With the Task Force name written on it, it would be better.

quote:

Then the player can "pick up" a task force and move it about the map. Task force definitions will remain in effect until the player disbands them, or unit losses reduce it to a single unit. They last from impulse to impulse and from turn to turn. That way moving TFs out to patrol and back to port should be easy.

Fine. I hoped we could keep Task Force even when in ports.

Would be good also in the NRD if the total oil cost of the units were shown. Replacing the Defense factor thing with that could be a real plus to the naval side of the game. Knowing the oil price of a TF is as almost important as knowing its range & speed.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1034
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 12:44:10 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

Shannon:

You are the game designer and chief developer, and as such, you are the boss. It seems that we have ad simmilar discussiona before, usually with me having proposals for tools/screens/functionality that I think would speed up play for the player, reducing time spent on CW/US/Japanese naval impulses, checking for air cover, trying different setups to see what hex you can get the strongest land attack against, etc. I think you've rejected every one of these proposals based on the "I dont want the computer to play the game for the player" argument. (Which I clearly don't agree with).

Since it seems that our disagreements are philosophical in nature, it's probably quite pointless for me to participate in these UI threads.

Why ?
Please don't.
Even if rejected, some of your ideas might give other people other ideas that might add to the game. That's the reason why Forums are here, to speak out loud ideas we have.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1035
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 12:46:56 PM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon
Now, while moving, it would be great if I could right-click on a section of a sea zone, and get a menu option called "Move ships here". If selecting this command, I would get a list of task forces and ships that can reach the section I am right clicking. (Task forces on top, if sorting alphabetically). This would speed things up quite a bit, especially for people with relatively small screens. For even faster play, it should be possible in the task force management screen, to define at least one, possibly several sea areas where the task force responsibility lies. The units with responsibility for a sea zone would always show up first when using the command "Move ships here".

Wow, great idea !

quote:

When right clicking on a ship or task force in port, one should get a "Move to sea zone" command if the ship is in port, or "Move to port" and "Slide down" commands when already at sea. "Move to sea zone" should also give the possiblity to specify section. "Slide down" should have a keyboard shortcut, too, I guess. Other context sensitive commands, could be "Remove from task force", "Move to task force X", "Reorganize unit".

Great ideas again.
About the "Slide down", maybe it is not usefull as this is the default for ships & TF staying at sea.



Thanks for the feedback. It's probably not in, though, since Shannon didnt seem to like it. As for the "slide down" shortcut, it's used for moving escorts that stayed at sea from the 3 box to the 1 or 0 box at the start of each turn. (Aside from the obvious but not so common situation where you need to creep to a lower box to reach the protection of battle ships or LBA). It could probably be done almost as well with the mouse, though.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1036
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 7:51:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed the Cargo label to # Carried. What I can do here is put 2 numbers in the cell. I don't think there is room for 3, especially since one of them could be 2 digits. There are 3 candidates: # of carrier air units, # of units that can invade, and # of units that are neither of the first 2. I think I'll go with # of carrier air units and merge the last two (non-carrier air units). If you are thinking about being invaded, you should go to the NRD form and not be making decisions using the NRS form. So, for example, 5/2 would mean 5 carrier air units and 2 other units aboard TRS, AMPH, or SCS units. You like?

No, I don't, because the number of carrier air unit is totaly useless.
You have the air to air and the air to sea rows to have an indication of the air power of that assembly of ships, the number of CVP is totaly irrelevant. If 2 numbers can be written, best is to write "cannot invade" / "can invade". Otherwise stay with 1 number only.

quote:

Differentiating within sea box sections should be done by bringing up the detailed map for the sea area and then passing the cursor over each sea box section while the NRD form is visible. The NRD form then shows just those units in the sea box section.

Why not also have a right click in the sea area bring a menu where you can choose any of the 10 sea boxes to appear in the NRD ? Example : Rignt click in the Solomons Sea Area, and choose Axis 4, and I see only units from that Sea Box section in the NRD.
I ask this because it can beclumsy to look for the Sea Area's Sea Box Sections.


While the air-to-air and air-to-sea numbers are helpful for the current situation, they do not necessarily reflect what is aboard the carriers. They could be fighters and nav air in the sea area. Nor do they show the capacity remaining for placing more units on carriers.

But this is the omnipresent problem with statistics: a single number represents a complicated reality.

For you, can invade vs can't invade is the most important issue. For me, carrier air units vs transported units is. An obvious solution is to make this an player interface option. But, boy, do I ever not want to put in more optional stuff. For now, I'll leave it as I have it. But I remain very aware of the weakness of this 'solution'.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1037
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 8:18:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

Shannon:

You are the game designer and chief developer, and as such, you are the boss. It seems that we have ad simmilar discussiona before, usually with me having proposals for tools/screens/functionality that I think would speed up play for the player, reducing time spent on CW/US/Japanese naval impulses, checking for air cover, trying different setups to see what hex you can get the strongest land attack against, etc. I think you've rejected every one of these proposals based on the "I dont want the computer to play the game for the player" argument. (Which I clearly don't agree with).

Since it seems that our disagreements are philosophical in nature, it's probably quite pointless for me to participate in these UI threads.

Well, that certainly was not my goal.

But I did intend to rein in your enthusiasm for this type of addition to the player interface. The category of "have the computer figure out all the things that I might do and prioritize them for me, then show them to me so I can select which ones I like" is a virtually endless list of tasks/features that can be added to MWIF. Even the simplest decision can be added to this list (e.g., whether to ask for an initiative reroll); as can the most complex decision (e.g., whether to abandon the USSR/Germany frontline hexes or reinforce them).

Besides my philosophical inclinations, there is also a ton of practical implications behind my decisions on these features. It is not as simple as waving a magic wand and having these things become part of the game.

Having the progam do reverse calculations (which units can get here?) and sorts (many different possible ways that players will want to sort stuff) always require: variable creation, instantiation, & modification, routines to perform the function, display mechanism so the player knows current status, player interface controls so the player can manipulate what he sees, help screens, player manual sections, etc..

Look at the naval review summary as an example. In concept this is a trivial idea: "show summary statistics on units in each port and sea area". Eleven words that translate to over 100 hours of work so far. I am still working on how to integrate that form with all the other forms in the game, and how it is likely to be used during different phases of the game.

For that reason, the "hey, how about ..." ideas have to pass a severe justification gauntlet, to make it to my task list.

My bedrock criterion for making these decisions is to reproduce WIF FE as close as reasonably possible on the computer. Off-loading the odds calculations and table lookups definitively has to be done by the program, which is a vast improvement over having to do them when playing over the board. But helping make decisions for the player, is not part of WIF FE. So it is optional as far as my contract with Matrix is concerned - hence the gauntlet that has to be run.

[The naval review details and summary forms were added to address the limitations of only being able to see a small portion of the map on the screen, instead of having the entire map visible when you play over the board. And the NRD was to address the point that Marcus made about being able to spread units out on the map when playing over the board, to undersand what is in a port/sea area. Both of these I feel strongly are essential for converting the board game to the computer - regardless of the extra work involved.]

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1038
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 8:21:23 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When you look at the map or review a port/sea area/sea area section, each task force will appear as a single counter - there is a separate bitmapped image for task force 'units'.

With the Task Force name written on it, it would be better.

quote:

Then the player can "pick up" a task force and move it about the map. Task force definitions will remain in effect until the player disbands them, or unit losses reduce it to a single unit. They last from impulse to impulse and from turn to turn. That way moving TFs out to patrol and back to port should be easy.

Fine. I hoped we could keep Task Force even when in ports.

Would be good also in the NRD if the total oil cost of the units were shown. Replacing the Defense factor thing with that could be a real plus to the naval side of the game. Knowing the oil price of a TF is as almost important as knowing its range & speed.

Yes, to all.

I have room to add one more row to the form and oil point usage is the clear winner (so far). I'll put it at the bottom and only have it appear if that optional rule is in use.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1039
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 8:32:31 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon
Now, while moving, it would be great if I could right-click on a section of a sea zone, and get a menu option called "Move ships here". If selecting this command, I would get a list of task forces and ships that can reach the section I am right clicking. (Task forces on top, if sorting alphabetically). This would speed things up quite a bit, especially for people with relatively small screens. For even faster play, it should be possible in the task force management screen, to define at least one, possibly several sea areas where the task force responsibility lies. The units with responsibility for a sea zone would always show up first when using the command "Move ships here".

Wow, great idea !

quote:

When right clicking on a ship or task force in port, one should get a "Move to sea zone" command if the ship is in port, or "Move to port" and "Slide down" commands when already at sea. "Move to sea zone" should also give the possiblity to specify section. "Slide down" should have a keyboard shortcut, too, I guess. Other context sensitive commands, could be "Remove from task force", "Move to task force X", "Reorganize unit".

Great ideas again.
About the "Slide down", maybe it is not usefull as this is the default for ships & TF staying at sea.



Thanks for the feedback. It's probably not in, though, since Shannon didnt seem to like it. As for the "slide down" shortcut, it's used for moving escorts that stayed at sea from the 3 box to the 1 or 0 box at the start of each turn. (Aside from the obvious but not so common situation where you need to creep to a lower box to reach the protection of battle ships or LBA). It could probably be done almost as well with the mouse, though.

In general 'shortcut' and 'automatic' are words that make the hair on the back of my neck rise. They immediately imply that there is a way to do this already in the player interface, so we are just talking about convenience.

Now, I actually use the player interface more than all the beta testers combined, so if there is something that is tedious to do, I learn about it very quickly. And I spend time brooding about possible ways to make it easier. For instance, I just went through several forms and repositioned the buttons so they are grouped together, to minimize the distance you have to move the mouse when making a series of decisions on the form.

But both shortcut and automatic means taking control out of the hands of the player and having the computer go off on its own and do things. That makes me nervous, for it requires that I figure out in advance all the possible situations where these actions might occur and guaranteeing that the way I program for them is perfect - always making the correct decision on behalf of the player. I have learned from experience that my ability to make perfect decisions is always doubtful.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1040
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/24/2008 8:58:07 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When you look at the map or review a port/sea area/sea area section, each task force will appear as a single counter - there is a separate bitmapped image for task force 'units'.

With the Task Force name written on it, it would be better.

quote:

Then the player can "pick up" a task force and move it about the map. Task force definitions will remain in effect until the player disbands them, or unit losses reduce it to a single unit. They last from impulse to impulse and from turn to turn. That way moving TFs out to patrol and back to port should be easy.

Fine. I hoped we could keep Task Force even when in ports.

Would be good also in the NRD if the total oil cost of the units were shown. Replacing the Defense factor thing with that could be a real plus to the naval side of the game. Knowing the oil price of a TF is as almost important as knowing its range & speed.

Yes, to all.

I have room to add one more row to the form and oil point usage is the clear winner (so far). I'll put it at the bottom and only have it appear if that optional rule is in use.

Ah, I had this revelation last night that affects this.

For the Task Force Summary form, there will be plenty of room. That's because instead of ports and sea areas there will only be task forces. One possibility is to show just 8 task forces at a time, which provides room for another 20 rows of statistics per task force. Alternatively, I could do a top and bottom 8 columns, where the filters are different. For example, the top 8 could be for the current major power's task forces and the bottom for allied or enemy task forces.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1041
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 1:52:06 AM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
In general 'shortcut' and 'automatic' are words that make the hair on the back of my neck rise. They immediately imply that there is a way to do this already in the player interface, so we are just talking about convenience.

Now, I actually use the player interface more than all the beta testers combined, so if there is something that is tedious to do, I learn about it very quickly. And I spend time brooding about possible ways to make it easier. For instance, I just went through several forms and repositioned the buttons so they are grouped together, to minimize the distance you have to move the mouse when making a series of decisions on the form.

But both shortcut and automatic means taking control out of the hands of the player and having the computer go off on its own and do things. That makes me nervous, for it requires that I figure out in advance all the possible situations where these actions might occur and guaranteeing that the way I program for them is perfect - always making the correct decision on behalf of the player. I have learned from experience that my ability to make perfect decisions is always doubtful.


Steve

I understand project constraints, risks of feature creep and the need to keep to a simple design for cost and risk reasons. I also understand psycological reasons such as fatigue at as a project nears it's end. (I have worked in the software industry for the last 10 years, most of this time as either a developer, architect or consultant.) If one agrees that an idea is good, but too complex to be in scope in the first release, it usually gets recorded as candidate functionality for future releases. Clearly, I realize that many of my more involved suggestions are unlikely to be included in the first release, given the current scope definition (ie a computerized WIF FE), and release plan.

But the rather consistent rejections of my proposals seem to go beyond that, and they have from the start. From statements like the above, it seems that the real difference lies in differences of taste. It's hard to argue agains that, and the seeming consistency of it indicates that I am simply wasting everyone's time coming up with these kinds of suggestions.

Btw, I am not really suggestin any real automation. (I've been thinking of suggesting it, but not really taken it that far). By real automation, I mean that the the game would actually execute actions for the player. Rather, what I have suggested falls more in the domain of information gathering. (This comes natural for me, since my work lies in the intersection between statistical analysis/business intelligence and more classic programming, for which I am currently emplyed as an architect) By placing the information "at the fingertips" of the player (excuse the cliché), I seek to speed up play. I do NOT want the game to make any kind of prioritisation on behalf of the player. This is purely the domain of the player, in my opinion.

I realize that some of the things that I've suggested would require some more or less involved code, and having to run that code every time I right-click, could also require some optimization of that code. Except for the actual UI, though, I would think that most of or all of this code has to be written as support algorithms for the AIO sooner or later, anyway.

But I still feel that thehre is a considerable difference of philosophy and taste, that will at least require the game to be released before I start coming up with suggested features.

That being said, the game does seem to shape up rather well, and I really look forward to it's realease. I must say that I'm quite impressed by the dedication you have been showing to the product and the willingness to go on with minimal income and very long hours to see it through, without compromising on quality. I get the impression that you alone do the work that most software companies require at least 4 people to get done.

I hope that you will be rewarded for this when the game comes out. Have you put any thought into what price level you should sell it at? I have the feeling that this kind of niche game is not going to be terribly price sensitive when it comes to sales volume, so you may be able to sell it at $100-200 even online. Alternatively, it may be a good idea to charge some kind of monthly fee ($5-10/month, for instance, for online play, if you are going to provide a playing lobby, etc.

Simmilar to, for instance, MS flight simmulator, the game is not going to face much in terms of newer, more technically advanced, competition. This means that it's not likely to be faced with much price preassure very soon.

For further revenue, you may want to create a deluxe version. Ideally, this would be compatible with the standard version for multiplayer purposes, etc, but could include player help systems, maybe a full hardcopy of the MWIF maps (at WIF FEW scale), etc. Maybe even some of my suggestions could find it's way into such a product.

Cheers
Hakon

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1042
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 2:06:31 AM   
Norman42


Posts: 244
Joined: 2/9/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline

Hakon,

To paraphrase two great men:

"Churchill has 100 ideas per day, of which only 1 is of any value." - F.D. Rooseveldt

"Thats better then FDR, who has no ideas at all!" - Winston Churchill


Ideas are great, and brainstorming is what creates bold new ideas that improve things (ie this game). Not every idea is viable in the short term, but that doesn't mean they aren't good ideas, or that they don't spur more discussion.

I find many of your ideas brilliant, but I can see how they would have a hard time working into MWiF as it stands now; perhaps in Product2. Your ideas seem to be very far reaching and what I call "big picture". Those types of ideas often have a hard time working in when somebody else is responsible for the main job of painting that picture, especially when the picture is already nearing completion.

So don't feel like your ideas aren't appreciated. I know Steve reads everything here, and even if an idea isn't doable out of the box, it gets him (and everyone else here) thinking of other ways to improve the game.

Keep it up!



_____________________________

-------------

C.L.Norman

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1043
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 2:09:37 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
In general 'shortcut' and 'automatic' are words that make the hair on the back of my neck rise. They immediately imply that there is a way to do this already in the player interface, so we are just talking about convenience.

Now, I actually use the player interface more than all the beta testers combined, so if there is something that is tedious to do, I learn about it very quickly. And I spend time brooding about possible ways to make it easier. For instance, I just went through several forms and repositioned the buttons so they are grouped together, to minimize the distance you have to move the mouse when making a series of decisions on the form.

But both shortcut and automatic means taking control out of the hands of the player and having the computer go off on its own and do things. That makes me nervous, for it requires that I figure out in advance all the possible situations where these actions might occur and guaranteeing that the way I program for them is perfect - always making the correct decision on behalf of the player. I have learned from experience that my ability to make perfect decisions is always doubtful.


Steve

I understand project constraints, risks of feature creep and the need to keep to a simple design for cost and risk reasons. I also understand psycological reasons such as fatigue at as a project nears it's end. (I have worked in the software industry for the last 10 years, most of this time as either a developer, architect or consultant.) If one agrees that an idea is good, but too complex to be in scope in the first release, it usually gets recorded as candidate functionality for future releases. Clearly, I realize that many of my more involved suggestions are unlikely to be included in the first release, given the current scope definition (ie a computerized WIF FE), and release plan.

But the rather consistent rejections of my proposals seem to go beyond that, and they have from the start. From statements like the above, it seems that the real difference lies in differences of taste. It's hard to argue agains that, and the seeming consistency of it indicates that I am simply wasting everyone's time coming up with these kinds of suggestions.

Btw, I am not really suggestin any real automation. (I've been thinking of suggesting it, but not really taken it that far). By real automation, I mean that the the game would actually execute actions for the player. Rather, what I have suggested falls more in the domain of information gathering. (This comes natural for me, since my work lies in the intersection between statistical analysis/business intelligence and more classic programming, for which I am currently emplyed as an architect) By placing the information "at the fingertips" of the player (excuse the cliché), I seek to speed up play. I do NOT want the game to make any kind of prioritisation on behalf of the player. This is purely the domain of the player, in my opinion.

I realize that some of the things that I've suggested would require some more or less involved code, and having to run that code every time I right-click, could also require some optimization of that code. Except for the actual UI, though, I would think that most of or all of this code has to be written as support algorithms for the AIO sooner or later, anyway.

But I still feel that thehre is a considerable difference of philosophy and taste, that will at least require the game to be released before I start coming up with suggested features.

That being said, the game does seem to shape up rather well, and I really look forward to it's realease. I must say that I'm quite impressed by the dedication you have been showing to the product and the willingness to go on with minimal income and very long hours to see it through, without compromising on quality. I get the impression that you alone do the work that most software companies require at least 4 people to get done.

I hope that you will be rewarded for this when the game comes out. Have you put any thought into what price level you should sell it at? I have the feeling that this kind of niche game is not going to be terribly price sensitive when it comes to sales volume, so you may be able to sell it at $100-200 even online. Alternatively, it may be a good idea to charge some kind of monthly fee ($5-10/month, for instance, for online play, if you are going to provide a playing lobby, etc.

Simmilar to, for instance, MS flight simmulator, the game is not going to face much in terms of newer, more technically advanced, competition. This means that it's not likely to be faced with much price preassure very soon.

For further revenue, you may want to create a deluxe version. Ideally, this would be compatible with the standard version for multiplayer purposes, etc, but could include player help systems, maybe a full hardcopy of the MWIF maps (at WIF FEW scale), etc. Maybe even some of my suggestions could find it's way into such a product.

Cheers
Hakon

Hakon,

Marketing and pricing is purely the domain of Matrix Games. They want to maximize profits as much as I do (I'll get a royalty based on a percentage of sales). They also have a lot more experience with this than I do. My take on this is I'll let them decide - not that I have much choice.

I am 99+% focused on product 1. Once that is done and been in the hands of players for a while, I'll start a discussion in the forum on what should be in product 2. That should be a lively discussion.

I believe very few people can even begin to appreciate the size of this game in terms of code. The more code there is, the more interactions there are between modules/routines/components/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. When features grow linearly, the complexity grows exponentially.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1044
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 2:29:09 AM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Hakon,

Marketing and pricing is purely the domain of Matrix Games. They want to maximize profits as much as I do (I'll get a royalty based on a percentage of sales). They also have a lot more experience with this than I do. My take on this is I'll let them decide - not that I have much choice.

I am 99+% focused on product 1. Once that is done and been in the hands of players for a while, I'll start a discussion in the forum on what should be in product 2. That should be a lively discussion.

I believe very few people can even begin to appreciate the size of this game in terms of code. The more code there is, the more interactions there are between modules/routines/components/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. When features grow linearly, the complexity grows exponentially.


Oh, I do think I have a clue about the state of the code, being partly a programmer myself. And I realize the complexity growth, though I tend to think it only grows geomtrically (probably proportional to the square) with respect initer-dependant feature growth.

This is one of the reasons that it's so hard to change features in the middle of a development cycle, and also the main reason why the guys that came up with extreme programming place so much so much emphasis on refactoring. Refactoring, often lets you separate parts of the code that has grown inter-dependant, in such a way that overall complexity can be kept closer to linear with respect to feature count. Some times, it may actually be cheaper to write all parts of the code several times, rather than to try to fix problems created by unexpected interdependency.

Cheers
Hakon

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1045
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 2:55:57 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Hakon,

Marketing and pricing is purely the domain of Matrix Games. They want to maximize profits as much as I do (I'll get a royalty based on a percentage of sales). They also have a lot more experience with this than I do. My take on this is I'll let them decide - not that I have much choice.

I am 99+% focused on product 1. Once that is done and been in the hands of players for a while, I'll start a discussion in the forum on what should be in product 2. That should be a lively discussion.

I believe very few people can even begin to appreciate the size of this game in terms of code. The more code there is, the more interactions there are between modules/routines/components/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. When features grow linearly, the complexity grows exponentially.


Oh, I do think I have a clue about the state of the code, being partly a programmer myself. And I realize the complexity growth, though I tend to think it only grows geomtrically (probably proportional to the square) with respect initer-dependant feature growth.

This is one of the reasons that it's so hard to change features in the middle of a development cycle, and also the main reason why the guys that came up with extreme programming place so much so much emphasis on refactoring. Refactoring, often lets you separate parts of the code that has grown inter-dependant, in such a way that overall complexity can be kept closer to linear with respect to feature count. Some times, it may actually be cheaper to write all parts of the code several times, rather than to try to fix problems created by unexpected interdependency.

Cheers
Hakon

Your last sentence is definitively one of my basic working tactics. I just copy and modify rather than try to write a general purpose routine that can be called with different parameters. Only if things get absurdly repetitive do I look into the possibility of a universal solution to a common problem. It's enormously faster to just copy and modify something that is known to work already.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1046
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 8:02:06 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
Here is a quick and dirty screen layout for reviwing 8 sea areas at once.

I will try to do a matching screen shot using the Naval Review Summary form today or tomorrow.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1047
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 11:33:49 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
Here is the companion screen shot for the previous post. This has what i am seriously considering to be the final layout for the Naval Review Sumary form.

The only defect in the NRS form currently is the 'selected' cell that is gray (it shows a 7 in the Tokyo column). I want the cell backgrounds to never change color.

I now have the First, Previous, Next, and Last buttons working. None of the other buttons and none of the check boxes have any code behind them so far.

You click on a column to select it - either a port or sea area column. If you then click on Next, the column content changes to the next port/sea area that has units in it. That is how I was able to get the 16 specific columns I wanted to display. I choose the 8 sea areas shown in the previous post and 8 ports where the Japanese had ships.

The selected column has its name outlined and its cell entries shown in blue. Here that is the rightmost sea area column = China Sea.

For the sea box section cell, I decided to list them in descending order. The 02 entry just looked like a 2 with a leading zero to me. There isn't room for 43210, so teh code looks for that and replaces it with the word 'All'.

As Patrice noted, the port symbols are a trifle large, especailly for the minor ports, but if I make them smaller, they will lose some resolution.

I am intentionally not showing oil point usage here. Instead I will show that on the Task Force forms.

I'm going to make the 'Ports' and 'Sea Areas' labels bold.

Comments?




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1048
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 11:45:39 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Comments?

- I prefered the ports symbols at the top of the columns, sounded more logical. I still prefer them smaller, even if resolution loss. They are secondary here. The background of the column's name in deep blue with white writing would have sufficed to indicate major port. But the icon instead is fine.

- I think that all the "0" should be either deleted or replaced by dashes. The reading of the actual numbers would be improved.

- What is the "Section(s)" row ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1049
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 3/25/2008 11:52:01 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Comments?

- I prefered the ports symbols at the top of the columns, sounded more logical. I still prefer them smaller, even if resolution loss. They are secondary here. The background of the column's name in deep blue with white writing would have sufficed to indicate major port. But the icon instead is fine.

- I think that all the "0" should be either deleted or replaced by dashes. The reading of the actual numbers would be improved.

- What is the "Section(s)" row ?

Yeah, smaller port symbols seems better the more I look at it. I still prefer them in the middle, so the column headers are closer to the cell contents. The icon has the advantage of showing ports that are currently iced-in or capable of being iced-in. it is exactly what is being displayed on the map for the port's symbol (I am using the same code).

Replacing 0's with blanks is obvious, now that you mention it.

Section(s) are the sea box sections that are occupied. It is the one place where I will leave zeroes.

I forgot to split the # Carried into carrier air units and 'other'. I'll do that tomorrow. I should be able to finish this form tomorrow - getting all the buttons to work.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1050
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