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US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 1:03:25 PM   
Fornadan


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'm gradually getting my subs through the 4/42 and I've noticed that the AA rating actually drop from 20 to 15. Does this mean that:

1) The Americans refitted their subs with a worse AA gun in RL

2) WiTP doesn't model these guns very well

3) The AA doesn't accurately reflect in-game abilities
Post #: 1
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 4:10:37 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		What's happening is, you're swapping out 4x 50-cals, for 2x 20mms.

The AAA rating, is simply the sum of the "effect" rating of the AAA guns (top of my head, I could be wrong, but it's a fairly simple calcualtion).

Frankly, the AAA rating of sub is marginal anyways. If a sub is being attacked a by an aircraft, it's fairly bad news for the sub. Even if it was 4x 20mms (would be a higher AAA rating than 4x 50-cals), you're still not going do much. In 4 years of war, you might shoot down 4 or 5 aircraft; compare that to how many subs will be damaged by aircraft spotting them.

My point being, that the AAA rating of sub is marginal anyways, and not worth worrying about. The reason you need the 04/42 refit, is so that you can get the 08-42 refit, which provides your subs with radar.

Something you probably didn't notice, is that the portage capacity of your Salmon, Gato, and Tench class subs drops from 64 to 42. Not exactly sure why. But again, while that is a fairly significant hit in capacity, it's not worth losing sleep over.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Fornadan)
Post #: 2
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 4:30:03 PM   
Martti

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Something you probably didn't notice, is that the portage capacity of your Salmon, Gato, and Tench class subs drops from 64 to 42. Not exactly sure why. But again, while that is a fairly significant hit in capacity, it's not worth losing sleep over.

-F-


This is because they lose six torpedoes. The six forward tubes lose one reload - the ammo drops from 3 to 2. I suppose they had good reasons for doing so in reality - maybe they carried more stores or something - but as WITP does not model those, the result is that you lose 1/5th of their firepower.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 3
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 4:33:45 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline 		You can go straight to the 10/42 upgrade, but it might cause extra 'damage' I'm not sure. There does not seem much point to the 04/42 upgrade to me. But it's fairly marginal.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 4
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 6:00:29 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Martti



This is because they lose six torpedoes. The six forward tubes lose one reload - the ammo drops from 3 to 2.
...the result is that you lose 1/5th of their firepower.


I've never liked the way ammo is handled on subs anyway. The game assumes that subs always fire a full spread of torpedoes against every target. In a game that gives you the option of modeling Japanese Sub Doctrine, this seems really crazy because the Japanese sub commanders had strick limits on the number of torpedoes they could use against certain targets.

I proposed a system where the sub would fire from 1 to max number of tubes and there would be a chance of a point of ammo being removed equal to the percent of tubes used. Thus if the sub fired 2 of its 4 tubes then there was a 50% chance of a point of ammo being used. Not a perfect system, but it would give subs a little more ammo endurance.

(in reply to Martti)
Post #: 5
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 6:47:55 PM   
Fornadan


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

What's happening is, you're swapping out 4x 50-cals, for 2x 20mms.

The AAA rating, is simply the sum of the "effect" rating of the AAA guns (top of my head, I could be wrong, but it's a fairly simple calcualtion).

Frankly, the AAA rating of sub is marginal anyways. If a sub is being attacked a by an aircraft, it's fairly bad news for the sub. Even if it was 4x 20mms (would be a higher AAA rating than 4x 50-cals), you're still not going do much. In 4 years of war, you might shoot down 4 or 5 aircraft; compare that to how many subs will be damaged by aircraft spotting them.

My point being, that the AAA rating of sub is marginal anyways, and not worth worrying about. The reason you need the 04/42 refit, is so that you can get the 08-42 refit, which provides your subs with radar.

Something you probably didn't notice, is that the portage capacity of your Salmon, Gato, and Tench class subs drops from 64 to 42. Not exactly sure why. But again, while that is a fairly significant hit in capacity, it's not worth losing sleep over.

-F-
I was more puzzled than worried since the whole thing looked like a waste of time. If you skip one upgrade, will the port first repair the "damage" from the first upgrade or the do both at once?


I once had a search plane shot down and the pilot captured by a Japanese sub outside Brisbane. He must have been the luckiest pilot in the RAAF

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 6
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 6:51:11 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		while it may be too late please dont ever upgrade the Argonaut .. you lose its great minelaying ability and it becomes a mediocre transport sub and a poor combat unit to boot !



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sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to Fornadan)
Post #: 7
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 6:52:59 PM   
Fornadan


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

while it may be too late please dont ever upgrade the Argonaut .. you lose its great minelaying ability and it becomes a mediocre transport sub and a poor combat unit to boot !



Thanks, that was about 1,5 month too late

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 8
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 7:03:05 PM   
Martti

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fornadan
I was more puzzled than worried since the whole thing looked like a waste of time. If you skip one upgrade, will the port first repair the "damage" from the first upgrade or the do both at once?


AFAIK, ships can skip an upgrade without any extra penalties, ie. a 12/41 sub will upgrade directly to 10/42 model without suffering any more sys damage than a 4/42 model upgrading.

(in reply to Fornadan)
Post #: 9
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 7:05:25 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fornadan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

while it may be too late please dont ever upgrade the Argonaut .. you lose its great minelaying ability and it becomes a mediocre transport sub and a poor combat unit to boot !



Thanks, that was about 1,5 month too late


I did exactly the same in my first game so i learnt the hard way .. its more a niggle than anything, same with keeping the dutch O19 and O20 alive for use in the bay of bengal or out of darwin .. nice boats too .. not sure about any upgrades though.



_____________________________

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to Fornadan)
Post #: 10
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 7:21:16 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Dutch subs are great

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Post #: 11
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 8:41:39 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Martti


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Something you probably didn't notice, is that the portage capacity of your Salmon, Gato, and Tench class subs drops from 64 to 42. Not exactly sure why. But again, while that is a fairly significant hit in capacity, it's not worth losing sleep over.

-F-


This is because they lose six torpedoes. The six forward tubes lose one reload - the ammo drops from 3 to 2. I suppose they had good reasons for doing so in reality - maybe they carried more stores or something - but as WITP does not model those, the result is that you lose 1/5th of their firepower.


Wouldn't this increase portage capacity, more room from less torpedoes???????????

(in reply to Martti)
Post #: 12
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 9:05:25 PM   
Martti

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear


quote:

ORIGINAL: Martti


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Something you probably didn't notice, is that the portage capacity of your Salmon, Gato, and Tench class subs drops from 64 to 42. Not exactly sure why. But again, while that is a fairly significant hit in capacity, it's not worth losing sleep over.

-F-


This is because they lose six torpedoes. The six forward tubes lose one reload - the ammo drops from 3 to 2. I suppose they had good reasons for doing so in reality - maybe they carried more stores or something - but as WITP does not model those, the result is that you lose 1/5th of their firepower.


Wouldn't this increase portage capacity, more room from less torpedoes???????????


In reality perhaps, but isn't the sub cargo capacity in WITP calculated as 3xspare torpedoes?

sub cargo cap. = 3 x (num. of torps - num. torp.tubes)

So 12/41 Gato class has 10 tubes and 30 torpedoes = 20 spare torpedoes = 60 cargo capacity.
4/42 Gato class has 10 tubes and 24 torpedoes = 14 spare torpedoes = 42 cargo capacity.
O21 class has 8 tubes and 14 torpedoes = 6 spare torpedoes = 18 cargo capacity.

This is how I thought it works. Am I wrong then?

(in reply to panda124c)
Post #: 13
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 9:15:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		When you 'skip' an upgrade, it just means that you are performing multiple upgrades one after the other. In other words, you can't really skip an upgrade, only delay it. For example, you have upgrades scheduled for a given sub or ship in 4/42 and 10/42. You don't want the 4/42 upgrade, so you set the switch to 'No'. The sub will not upgrade. When 10/42 rolls around you change the switch to 'Yes', but you will notice that the screen still says 'Upgrade in 4/42?'. The sub will repair enough sys damage (if necessary), then perform the 4/42 upgrade. When enough sys damage from that upgrade is repaired, it will perform the 10/42 upgrade.

(in reply to Martti)
Post #: 14
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 9:27:40 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Martti, I never did the math, but I'd say you're probably exactly correct on this.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Martti)
Post #: 15
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/1/2005 10:20:55 PM   
Martti

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

When you 'skip' an upgrade, it just means that you are performing multiple upgrades one after the other. In other words, you can't really skip an upgrade, only delay it. For example, you have upgrades scheduled for a given sub or ship in 4/42 and 10/42. You don't want the 4/42 upgrade, so you set the switch to 'No'. The sub will not upgrade. When 10/42 rolls around you change the switch to 'Yes', but you will notice that the screen still says 'Upgrade in 4/42?'. The sub will repair enough sys damage (if necessary), then perform the 4/42 upgrade. When enough sys damage from that upgrade is repaired, it will perform the 10/42 upgrade.


This is not true. I just had a 12/41 sub upgrade directly to 10/42 model. Sys damage taken was 9 points (from 2 to 11), ie normal upgrade damage. Even though the screen says 'upgrade in 4/42' the game will automatically pick a newer model if available.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 16
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/2/2005 4:32:47 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I feel sure that you got both upgrades. I always have. If you're absolutely certain maybe check it out with Mr. Frag. I suppose you could check the devices and values on the sub to be sure whether you got both upgrades or only the last one.

(in reply to Martti)
Post #: 17
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/2/2005 9:07:58 AM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline 		witpqs,

We are not saying you don't get both upgrades. You get the worse AA and Transport capacity of the 4/42 upgrade as well as the Radar of the 10/42. It's just that it seems to take no longer to do both at once. They are certainly not done in series (e.g. upgrades to 4/42, then repair, then upgrade to 10/42, then repair) if docked at a repair yard AFTER 10/42. So it appears that to do the 4/42 upgrade before 10/42 appears to just take up time and make your sub marginally worse for six months.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 18
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/2/2005 10:05:39 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

witpqs,

We are not saying you don't get both upgrades. You get the worse AA and Transport capacity of the 4/42 upgrade as well as the Radar of the 10/42. It's just that it seems to take no longer to do both at once. They are certainly not done in series (e.g. upgrades to 4/42, then repair, then upgrade to 10/42, then repair) if docked at a repair yard AFTER 10/42. So it appears that to do the 4/42 upgrade before 10/42 appears to just take up time and make your sub marginally worse for six months.

The way I read Martti's comment he is seeing only the second upgrade happen. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what he wrote.

I agree with everything you wrote except the part about the upgrades not being performed in serial fashion. What I have seen is the first upgrade gets done, then the sys damage gets repaired down to 4 or 5 (I forget which), then the second upgrade gets done. This is easier to see on CV's because they repair more slowly. I think you're right about the whole process being quicker if you do them both at once like this.

As far as not hobbling the subs for six months, I usually just do the upgrade when I get them to a shipyard as part of trying to play a bit realistically (for my own enjoyment). In a more dedicated competition your method is certainly better. I have, however, delayed upgrades and done two upgrades at once later on just to avoid having the ship out of service when I felt I needed it for operations.

(in reply to Hoplosternum)
Post #: 19
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/2/2005 10:46:45 AM   
Martti

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		To clarify, here is what happened to me: I disbanded a 12/41 sub (2 sys damage) into port, and the next turn there is a 10/42 sub (11 sys damage). This sub never appeared in the 4/42 configuration.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 20
RE: US 4/42 submarine upgrade - 9/2/2005 4:51:25 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline 		Marrti,

Yes this is my experience, the Sub is never in port as a damaged 4/42 configuration Sub but goes straight to 10/42. However the 10/42 configuration IS the 4/42 configuration with Radar not the (better) original Configuration plus Radar. All mine (I think!) now have the 20mm AAs not MGs. Of course the difference is very minor as others have mentioned. I have plenty upgraded to 4/42 as well

If one was really power gaming you'd probably keep most of the modern US Subs out of action in 1942. Just using a few to make sure the IJN has to hunt them. But they are going to be much more valuable once the Torpedoes get better later and it's easy to lose Subs early on when the Japanese are fairly concentrated and the Japanese player is still keen

(in reply to Martti)
Post #: 21
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