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Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 2:37:32 PM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline 		Guys having lurked on this forum and occassionaly posted, mostly about my own stumbling and bumbling modding. I am now determined to finish a campaign with my modded scenario which puts the Japanese AI on steriods by moving up key aircraft and other benefits like more DDs.

Anyhow on the game that I stopped playing because I had messed up the leader file I noticed I alway had a shortage of aviation support. This time I have managed to evacuate key elements from the Phillipines. I noticed some of the Base Force (BF) units have very large TO&E like 150 aviation support. So to the Allied players out there how much effort do you expand to evacutate these units? I think the 103 and 104 USAAF BF and the 118 USN BF all have large aviation TO&E.

In the past I did not pay much attention to these units, I am hoping now that I will be rewarded for saving these units. Has anyone earned big dividends doing this in PBEM? Also does anyone have a rough idea of how long it will take these unit to fill out their TO&E, some are in bad shape.

< Message edited by ladner -- 9/29/2005 2:39:30 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 3:03:39 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Hi
the normal TOE for a USAAF BF is only 30 Aviation Support.
In scenario 15, the BFs mentioned only have the above AV value. Which scenario are you looking at?

Some BFs may start out with more than their normal base TOE, but will only replace upto the normal value.

Some of the WestCoast BFs have special TOE where the AV is much higher.


Michael

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 2
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 4:02:38 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		There is an error when you move those base forces. They claim in TO$E to be 4 times as big after being moved, this has been addressed before by the Matrix knowledables. The answer given is even though the error says the base unit can grow to 4 times its size, it CANT. Check the editor, those numbers are not correct.

It has something to do with the process that allows the AI to grow base forces over TO&E, or so we were told. Some how the moved base force thinks it can grow, when it cant.

30 Aviation support is all it will ever grow to ( and 40 Infantry squads) basicly divide by 4 and your pretty close to the allowed TO&E. Failing that open the editor and write down the size of the unit that makes these baseforces, that is as BIG as they get.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 4:15:23 PM   
hbrsvl

 

Posts: 1155
Joined: 10/2/2002
Status: offline 		Hi-I assume you're playing either scen. 15 or16. What I do is pull out the base forces at Cebu & Ililo using subs from Manila. I do this because the political point usage for these units is low, at a time(12/8-9 41) when there are few PPs. I also pull out the B-17s & P-40s. Also consider the BF at Batavia. Later into the game I've pulled other Dutch BFs by air into Darwin. Hope this helps. Hugh Browne

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 5:48:54 PM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		True about baseforces. However there are 4 Aviation Rgt equivalents that start the game with at least 100 AV support
1.PAF Manila = 150 av support
2. 1 DAF Batavia = 100
3. 2 DAF Soerbaja = 100
4. MAP Singapore = 150

< Message edited by ckk -- 9/29/2005 5:49:55 PM >

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 5
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 6:01:23 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Yes but not sure if they have that as TO&E or are given that at start. If TO&E then if you can save them you can grow them back to that, if not, they will only grow to size allowed before move ( check TO&E before ya move them.).

The exception is the AI, it is allowed to send fragments and pieces of AF support and that support will grow based on Base size. Thats why the AI never has problems with low support for aircraft. Or not enough base forces.

(in reply to ckk)
Post #: 6
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 6:41:51 PM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		That is the TOE from the start And they do grow back. I have evacuated at one time or another all of them except the Singapore force. They don't cost that much in PP and they are very easily evacuated by submarine if you have enough time. The question is whether or not it's "gamey". The US did evacuate some support assets from PI especially when MacArthur got caught with his pants down. There weren't a lot of planes left to support And no reinforcements coming. As to the Dutch units I don't know if any were evacuated. So a houserule might be appropriate.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 7
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 7:16:53 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		One thing to remember is that at large airfields one base force will have a large aviation value based on the size of the airfield, not on its TOE. If the base force is moved it should return to the TOE value.

I like to evacuate some of the base forces at Singapore with high aviation support values and also the Dutch aviation support units on Java. The Dutch units are always important to my New Guniea campaign in '43. I also will pull a couple of base forces when from PI when playing the AI, but they take quite a while to reconstruct since they must be evacuated by sub.

I don't find this gamey at all. I only find something gamey when it is physically unrealistic, like refueling carriers at a size one port, or when it is politically unrealistic. One could make an argument that pulling the Dutch Aviation Units is politically unrealistic, but everything else seems on the level to me.






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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 7:33:29 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Just be advised that the Dutch BF units, are also the engineers that attempt to destroy the oil/resources when the base falls.

By all means, evac DAFAv1 and DAFAv2. But you might consider -not- evac'ing the BFs at Batavia, Soerbja, Balikpapan, Tarakan, Palembang, and the other oil centers. If you pull these BFs, no or few engineers will be left to demolish the place when the base is captured (thus leaving the facilities largely intact).

If you're playing vs. the AI, evac everything you want. The AI is stupid enough that even with undamaged facilities, it's going to have trouble. But if it's a PBEM game, you'll probably want to leave BFs at each of the oil centers, just to insure that you kill -some- of the facilities (and who knows, sometimes you demolish most of them).

Leaving a BF at each of the oil centers, still gives you like 14 or 15 BFs that can be relocated, plus the 2 DAF Aviation units.

-F-

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 8:00:52 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

One thing to remember is that at large airfields one base force will have a large aviation value based on the size of the airfield, not on its TOE. If the base force is moved it should return to the TOE value.

I like to evacuate some of the base forces at Singapore with high aviation support values and also the Dutch aviation support units on Java. The Dutch units are always important to my New Guniea campaign in '43. I also will pull a couple of base forces when from PI when playing the AI, but they take quite a while to reconstruct since they must be evacuated by sub.

I don't find this gamey at all. I only find something gamey when it is physically unrealistic, like refueling carriers at a size one port, or when it is politically unrealistic. One could make an argument that pulling the Dutch Aviation Units is politically unrealistic, but everything else seems on the level to me.







The only time the size of the base effects the allowed TO&E of a base or avaition unit is when it is the AI. Player controlled units NEVER grow past their TO&E as listed in the editor. The AI is allowed to cheat and one of their units will grow based on size of base, player controlled units WILL NOT exceed the TO&E ( except where the scenario starts them in excess) They will not grow larger than the TO&E.

Unless this changed in a recent patch, I specifically ask about this back last year. The response was that the ONLY time a base or avaition unit will grow past TO&E is if it is controlled by the AI.The same time I was informed that the moved base forces assume an incorrect TO&E number, they will NOT grow to that size.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 10
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 8:14:24 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Just be advised that the Dutch BF units, are also the engineers that attempt to destroy the oil/resources when the base falls.

By all means, evac DAFAv1 and DAFAv2. But you might consider -not- evac'ing the BFs at Batavia, Soerbja, Balikpapan, Tarakan, Palembang, and the other oil centers. If you pull these BFs, no or few engineers will be left to demolish the place when the base is captured (thus leaving the facilities largely intact)....Leaving a BF at each of the oil centers, still gives you like 14 or 15 BFs that can be relocated, plus the 2 DAF Aviation units.

-F-

Obviously good advise. I don't evac Dutch BF unless it is from some of the small island garrisons. I do try and take any extraneous forces I can because the allies need them in the middle years of the war. It seems that there are never enough BF and way too many eng units by 43.

(in reply to Feinder)
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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 8:24:47 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
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From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes





The only time the size of the base effects the allowed TO&E of a base or avaition unit is when it is the AI. Player controlled units NEVER grow past their TO&E as listed in the editor. The AI is allowed to cheat and one of their units will grow based on size of base, player controlled units WILL NOT exceed the TO&E ( except where the scenario starts them in excess) They will not grow larger than the TO&E.

Unless this changed in a recent patch, I specifically ask about this back last year. The response was that the ONLY time a base or avaition unit will grow past TO&E is if it is controlled by the AI.The same time I was informed that the moved base forces assume an incorrect TO&E number, they will NOT grow to that size.


I looked this up in the rule book and you are correct. However, I am pretty sure that I have had some units actually grow according to the rule for the computer player. A bug maybe? I will have to pay closer attention to this.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 12
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 9:05:49 PM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		IIRC some baseforces "grow" particularly Dutch by changing components and eventually become static

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Post #: 13
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 10:42:40 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The bug is that when you move the at start Airbase forces and navy forces in the PI and elsewhere they change their TO&E , it then says they can grow 4 times as large as they actually can. I asked about this and was told it is a bug, the units will NOT grow to that sizes. And I have never had one go over the original TO&E size, no matter what their screen says.

Equipment changes as new things come on line, we cant see the equipment path upgrades, they are hidden from view. The TO&E will never shnge what it says though ( on that screen) the actually equipment will be listed on the uniy screen, but when you change to TO&E screen it will list the original equipment.

The Dutch units that go static are the Navy bases, they acquire static guns. I have never seen a non navy base of the Dutch go static. If you evacuate a Navy base yo better put it where you want it to stay, cause it can and does get static guns in transit.

I only move bases to the southern Islands ( Dutch) I no longer evac large numbers of them to India and Australia. I general save 2 or 3 American bases out of the Philippines and later if Bataan lasts long enough I may evac a piece of bases trapped there on submarine.

If Bataan lasts long enough I am also going to evac a piece of one PA, one PS and Philippine cav unit. No point in wasting the replacements you get. But that is not a priority.

I do save a majority of Duth air units, I disband them as they become ineffective till only one of the type remains, they end up on Timor. The returning unit is nearly useless with 25 to 30 skill pilots, so they get sent around to out of the way Australian Cities to train. I hate wasteing anything, never know when I might need one of those units.

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 14
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 10:43:53 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline 		I know baseforces are not supposed to enlarge their AV support BUT.....





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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 10:45:33 PM   
Twotribes


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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		That unit may start over strength, I will check and let you know.

(in reply to saj42)
Post #: 16
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 11:01:27 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		That is weird. Wish my units would do that. Did you ever let the computer run the allies?

As for MAF, PAF and DAF units they are non formation units, they hae no base formation, so I assume what ever they started with is their allowed TO&E.

There are the ISF base units also ( near Singapore) they start with 120 Aviation support. Unfortunately they normally die as there is no easy way to evac them. Forgot to check if they have a base formation or not.

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/29/2005 11:01:48 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
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From: Somerset, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

That unit may start over strength, I will check and let you know.


It started at normal strength (I'm sure), then moved it to Thursday Is and based 32 a/c their regularly. Sometimes an extra sqn would stage through from PM to tenimbar etc

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 12:07:06 AM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		When I hit TOE for RAN's 1-4 they show 240 av support

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 4:43:43 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		According to the editor the Royal Australian Navy Base force has a TO&E of 30 avaition support. 103 should not grow past 30. that it does is a bug, a nice one, but a bug none the less )

(in reply to ckk)
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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 6:12:50 AM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		I agree but you hit TOE on RAN's 1-4 and tell me what you see?

< Message edited by ckk -- 9/30/2005 6:17:48 AM >

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 7:26:18 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The TO&E screen is bugged if these 4 units are based off the RAN Base force. I dont remember seeing 1-4 , I will have to check them. Seems to me the RAN does get some large air support bases, just cant remember which ones. It isnt easy to find them in the editor cause they are not listed at the locations they start at and generally appear after the reinfoircemnet list even.

No suprised the screen is bugged, I already told you that moving some bases does that to them.

(in reply to ckk)
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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 7:43:18 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I can not find any RAN 1 -4, you must mean 101 through 104? They are based on a formation that has as TO&E 30 avaition support.

The 2 large Autralian Air bases are RAAF bases.

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 10:41:42 AM   
saj42


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From: Somerset, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

According to the editor the Royal Australian Navy Base force has a TO&E of 30 avaition support. 103 should not grow past 30. that it does is a bug, a nice one, but a bug none the less )

I found that entry too......but digging further I eventually found the unit entry....






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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 12:23:00 PM   
michaelm75au


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Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Yes.
And as that unit takes AV loses, it wont take repalcements to become higher than the stated TOE for formation #2050, which is 30AV.

ckk
when I click on the TOE of 103 RAN BF, I see 30AV. What version/patch level and scenario are you playing?

Michael

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 1:18:19 PM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline 		All the units I have pulled out of the Phillipines has retained the large TO&E of av support. Some other units to consider for rescue 107 RN Baseforce, 3rd IBF which have over a 100 av support.

One of the units that I have evacuated, the 118th USAAF BF which has a TO&E of 120 av support, had like 18 and has jumped to 24 av support within a few days while refitting at Brisbane. Needless to say I am quite pleased by this, have already begun the process of pulling forward SOPAC and SWPAC aircraft, whereas in prior games had to wait for the big BF and Aviation Regt to arrive.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 26
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 1:56:10 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The Philippine bases wont expand past 30. There is a bug in the page view for TO&E. The ISF bases have 120 av support, good to rescue them.

It doesnt matter what the TO&E page says , it matters what the unit is based on. All the american bases Army and Navy are based on a 30 AV base. When you move the unit a bug occurs that causes the TO&E page to incorrectly report generally 4 times higher numbers.

The PAF, MAF and DAF units also have 100 or higher AF support, they too are good to rescue if you can.

The moral of the story? Your PI bases have a max 30 AV support and a max 40 Infantry squad. Even though the TO&E says higher, they will never expand past the real TO&E.

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 27
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 3:53:07 PM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

But if it's a PBEM game, you'll probably want to leave BFs at each of the oil centers, just to insure that you kill -some- of the facilities (and who knows, sometimes you demolish most of them).


Tell me about it. My opponent did exactly that and nearly all of the SRA oil and resources are 80-90% damaged. Balikpapen and Soerabaja are useless to me. Only Tobaoli is undamaged. I don't have enough supply to repair them and my supply/fuel reserves are dropping fast, currently down to about 40% of game start and we are only in June 42. The only ships moving right now are supply ships and damned few of them at that. I figure come Oct/Nov I will be out of fuel. I should enough supply to meet basic needs with little left over.

If you are the allies, definitely leave units with engineering squads anywhere there are substantial oil or resources. It will hurt the Japanese player.

Chez

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RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 4:23:26 PM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		I meant RAN Base Force Engineer units 101 through 104 stationed at major Austrilian bases, Sydney etc. I am playing Vers 1.602 Nik mod 3.11.

But check this out the TOE is in a game at 1/15/42. I am playing the same game same install,setup etc. at 4/20/43 and the TOE comes up the same as the database 30 AV support Go figure

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 29
RE: Phillipine Base Force Units - 9/30/2005 4:40:40 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		If the problem is just in the display showing 4xactual TOE as mentioned above, then exiting and reloading the save should make it go away.

I have not noticed this "4x" issue in the games I have been playing recently. Does it still happen under 1.602? Or was it just an earlier bug?

Michael

(in reply to ckk)
Post #: 30
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