Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about WIF?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about WIF? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about WIF? - 10/30/2005 6:40:18 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
Hi everyone,

I got a broad question for you. How does WIF stack up to Third Reich. I have owned all versions of T.R. up to the lastest revision called World at War. Although I have to admit I have never played Advanced or WAW since I can not find anyone willing to play such a monster game. Hence I never finished reading their rule books. I fiqured why bother I'm not going to get to play it because there is a real shortage of Grognards in my area(the UP of Michigan). Anyway i guess WIF is more complex than regular Third Reich, and about the same level as Advanced. Am I close? So its probably best to compare adv. or WAW to WIF. So what does WIF do better or worse. What are the fundamantal differences? Is WIF quaterly? Things like that. I will probably give this game a try if it ever comes out because I would really like to play something on this grand level.
Post #: 1
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 10/30/2005 8:23:03 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lebatron
Hi everyone,

I got a broad question for you. How does WIF stack up to Third Reich. I have owned all versions of T.R. up to the lastest revision called World at War. Although I have to admit I have never played Advanced or WAW since I can not find anyone willing to play such a monster game. Hence I never finished reading their rule books. I fiqured why bother I'm not going to get to play it because there is a real shortage of Grognards in my area(the UP of Michigan). Anyway i guess WIF is more complex than regular Third Reich, and about the same level as Advanced. Am I close? So its probably best to compare adv. or WAW to WIF. So what does WIF do better or worse. What are the fundamantal differences? Is WIF quaterly? Things like that. I will probably give this game a try if it ever comes out because I would really like to play something on this grand level.


My recollections of Third Reich are hazy, though I do own a copy and have played it several times. Perhaps others can answer your question more directly.

But here is an indirect answer. The thread "Directory" in this forum gives an overview of this forum and you might find it interesting to getting a better understanding of MWIF.

MWIF covers the entire world with a map 360 hexes wide (it wraps around) and 195 hexes high (no polar regions). It includes 238 countries/territories, 13 terrain types for hexes, 7 hexside terrain types, and 6 global weather regions. There are over 180 sea areas (groups of all sea hexes treated as a single area for naval movement), and 5000+ coastal hexes. The units types are primarily land, naval, and air with over 64 uniquely different unit types. The time line runs from September 1939 through to August 1945 though that can vary depending on which of the 11 scenarios is being played. Each turn covers 2 months of the war but within each turn there are a varying number of impulses which can range from 3 or 4 up to 10 or more depending upon the time of year and weather.

And here is an excerpt from one of my working documents:
==============================
Overview
1.1 MWIF Objectives
World in Flames is a game of conquest where the winner is determined based on victory hexes held at the end of the game. Indeed, the game ends early if one side controls a sufficient number of victory hexes. Since control of a hex is only achieved by having land units either traverse the hex or occupy the country’s capital, land units determine who wins.

1.2 Land Units
There are dozens of types of land units and they can be corps or division size. In order for land units to attack outside of their home country, they need to be able to trace a supply line back to a supply source, either in their home country or an occupied country. To do that, they need to be near a headquarters unit which can trace supply back to a primary or secondary supply source using rail lines. Because the only way to take out enemy held victory cities and enemy capitals is by attacking in foreign lands, these lines of communication are crucial for making any progress.

1.3 Naval Units
If the enemy is overseas, then supply/communication lines need to extend overseas. This is done by having convoys in contiguous sea areas stretching from the overseas location to the home supply source. To keep overseas units in supply, there must be at least one convoy per sea area, thereby forming a convoy pipeline. The convoys are extremely vulnerable to attack, so naval units are used to defend friendly and attack enemy convoy pipelines. If all supply lines could be land based, then the naval units would have very little value. This is why historically Germany and the USSR could fight such a prolonged and bloody conflict with virtually no naval units.

1.4 Air Units
Air units enable a player to provide additional striking power at the point of attack. This can be done both attacking and defending and both on land and at sea. Air units also have a limited ability to transport land units and supply. One unique role they perform is to attack enemy production through strategic bombing. In general though, air units are augmentations to land and naval forces, which respectively perform the primary tasks of taking territory and providing supply.

1.5 Transportation Lines
In addition to the rail lines and convoy pipelines providing supply, these same 2 transportation lines are used to transport resources to factories and reinforcements to the frontlines. The mechanism is so similar to those for maintaining supply, that for most purposes they can be thought of as the same. What has to be kept in mind is that the importance of the rail lines and convoy pipelines is multiple: (1) provide supply, (2) send reinforcements to the frontlines, and (3) send resources to factories.

1.6 Production
Once resources have been delivered to a factory, a currency known as production points are produced. Depending on the intensity of the war effort, these production points are converted into a number of build points. Build points can then be used to create new land, naval, and air units. They can also be used for repairing naval units, generating supply depots, and creating new factories. Being unable to generate a substantial number of build points each turn means that a country is unable to replace losses to its army, navy, air force, and merchant marine and eventually it is doomed to defeat.


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 2
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 10/31/2005 11:44:37 AM   
caine

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 6/13/2002
From: Barcelona (Spain)
Status: offline
I have played Third Reich and Advanced Third Reich and World in Flames.They are different games.The naval, land and air system is totally different.If I remember well, Third Reich units were corps sized where in WiF you have more varied types.The air and ship units in A3R were generic.In WiF there are different plane types and ship types and names.Diplomacy is covered in WiF with an expansion: DOD III (the last version).There is only one thing that is not covered in WiF: research.However , this is somewhat done with the annual additions in ship and plane types.

Both games are good, although different.WiF is a bit more complex.If you have time to play WiF it will give you a lot of possibilities and options to try.The time neeeded to play is greater in Wif than in A3R.Just an opinion.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 3
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 10/31/2005 12:26:54 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
Here are some differences:
* In WiF every unit has a random strength. In 3R every Panzer is a 4-6 and every inf is a 3-3.
* In WiF every 2 month turn has a random number of impulses for each side. In 3R every turn is three months with one impulse for each side.
* In WiF (+ships in Flames expansion) every ship is named and has historical values. In 3R every fleet is unnamed and has 9 factors
* ditto with air units

3R is fun but not a serious simulation. WiF is fun and deadly serious.

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

(in reply to caine)
Post #: 4
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 10/31/2005 2:30:35 PM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline
Simply said, I haven't played Third Reich since the day I picked up a copy of WiF. 3R was a good game in my opinion, but WiF is better and more fun.

The only advantage 3R currently has over WiF is that it already has a computer version (wonder whether I'll still get to run it on my current computer). But then MWiF should solve that little problem.

P.S.: I regularly considered buying A3R (I actually have Rising Sun, I guess at the time I thought it might be compatible with 3R) or the recent editions of 3R. But in the end I always opted out as those games would just end up lying around my shelves and never get played.

_____________________________

Marc aka Caran... ministerialis

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 5
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 10/31/2005 6:13:26 PM   
Cheesehead

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline
I agree with all the previous comments, but I would like to add that the time requirements to play A3R are much smaller, which to some might be an advantage. I've never played the aWaW combination (Europe and Asia/Pacific) so I'm not sure what the average number of hours is to complete this version, but the basic WiF Classic is generally considered to be a 100 hour game. When you go to Deluxe you can probably add another 20-40 hours, depending on the number of people and options. Adding in DoD increases it substantially more. I think I remember classic 3R took a long weekend to play...

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to Caranorn)
Post #: 6
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 11/1/2005 11:26:32 PM   
SurrenderMonkey

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline
I would have to agree with Caranorn in this way - although I played A3R (and RS, and GW) quite a bit from 1979 to 1996, once I discovered WiF I lost all desire to play A3R. WiF is elegant - meaning that it is simple to execute but hard to master. In A3Rthere are more tried-and-true formulaic approaches. In WiF there are far fewer.

Plus, the naval system is perfect. Nothing beats the thrill every turn of deciding where to sortie, with what, and then watching the various interceptions, skirmishes, battles, double-think, and uncertain resolutions.

A3R/RS/GW is like a '69 Firebird ... great fun to drive, but not every day. Especially when you've got that '04 Thunderbird in the garage ...

_____________________________

Wise Men Still Seek Him

(in reply to Cheesehead)
Post #: 7
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 11/6/2005 6:45:52 PM   
LeBaron

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
I can only agree with previous posts. I like 3R as it is easy playable ánd not consuming to much time, WiF is a monster but a far better game. The drawback is finding tome and devout opponents for it so a computer version would be excellent ! Cant wait !!

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 8
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/27/2005 11:06:12 PM   
Rorgg

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
I was a pretty serious A3R player back in the day; my group were playtesters for the research system that ended up being part of Rising Sun. I also tooled around a little in Third Reich 4th edition. 3R4 was clearly an inferior game to either A3R or WiF. It had pretty seriously restricted action choices, and the game tended to hinge on 2 or 3 dierolls.

A3R was a much better game. In A3R, the most common cause of victory was a lapse in unit deployment. Leave holes in your defense, your opponent catches you... BAM! That's the game. Failing that, it'd come down to a few die rolls, but it was generally a more controllable situation that original 3R if you lost the first one or two. It had a rich, and generally logical mechanic system that ran on a fairly high level of abstraction, especially for air and naval units (lessened somewhat with the release of Rising Sun, and I'm to understand AWAW -- haven't played the latter). This led to a high importance on strategic choices and a simpler, more easily mastered tactical system.

WiF on the other hand, is much more detailed, especially with the add-ons, many of which are considered a practical necessity. The impulse turn system is much more unpredictable than the one turn per season system of 3R/A3R, however what can be accomplished in a single impulse is smaller to compensate. The game is less reliant on single overwhelming attack turns (or especially the massive double-turn of A3R). The balancing factor on a cardboard perspecive is time -- WiF games take much longer Face-to-Face.

That's why I've been anticipating this project for some time. Should be a good one.

(in reply to LeBaron)
Post #: 9
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/28/2005 10:30:39 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

In WiF every unit has a random strength. In 3R every Panzer is a 4-6 and every inf is a 3-3.

Not as random as you say .
The (12-5) ARM has not randomly fallen on the 1ss Pz Corps, and same for the US corps containing the Big Red One.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 10
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/28/2005 6:00:33 PM   
Rorgg

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
Actually, that's not even true for 3R. Inf was from 1-3, 2-3, 3-3, or 3-4, Armor went 2-5, 3-5, 4-5, 4-6, 5-6. Maybe 5-5? I don't recall if the Soviets got 5-5 tanks. In some A3R optionals they could, and the Germans had a "Flexible Armor Groupings" optional to use 2-6s.

Of course, the real difference is that you knew what you were getting when you paid for it, as opposed to WiF.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 11
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/28/2005 11:42:22 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rorgg
Of course, the real difference is that you knew what you were getting when you paid for it, as opposed to WiF.


Is that a good thing? In WWII no-one knew what they were getting when they built their armies. They just did the best they could and hoped their Corp could stand up to the enemy Corp. No two units in the same army had the same effectiveness so the whole idea that each and every German infantry Corp is a (say) 3-3 is rather ahistoric. This doesn't take away from 3R as a great game, but I think the WiF approach has a beter historical feel.

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

(in reply to Rorgg)
Post #: 12
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/28/2005 11:48:03 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Is that a good thing? In WWII no-one knew what they were getting when they built their armies. They just did the best they could and hoped their Corp could stand up to the enemy Corp. No two units in the same army had the same effectiveness so the whole idea that each and every German infantry Corp is a (say) 3-3 is rather ahistoric. This doesn't take away from 3R as a great game, but I think the WiF approach has a beter historical feel.


Talking about this there is a feature that I always pondered about, as you couldn't really now how well your corps performed until it was tried in battle. How about implementing fog of war on the unit until it is part of a battle not only for the opposing player but also for the owner.
Could be an interesting fog of war option I think.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 13
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/28/2005 11:59:35 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

quote:

Is that a good thing? In WWII no-one knew what they were getting when they built their armies. They just did the best they could and hoped their Corp could stand up to the enemy Corp. No two units in the same army had the same effectiveness so the whole idea that each and every German infantry Corp is a (say) 3-3 is rather ahistoric. This doesn't take away from 3R as a great game, but I think the WiF approach has a beter historical feel.


Talking about this there is a feature that I always pondered about, as you couldn't really now how well your corps performed until it was tried in battle. How about implementing fog of war on the unit until it is part of a battle not only for the opposing player but also for the owner.
Could be an interesting fog of war option I think.


I am trying to make my task list shorter, not longer. Implementing the rules in WIF FE is my base line.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 14
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/29/2005 7:59:20 AM   
Rorgg

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
I think it was a good choice _for the scale of Third Reich_. Remember that the max strength of a land unit in 3R/A3R was 5 for armor and 3 for infantry. Building a 1-3 vs. a 3-4, say for the UK was a difference between a territorial army and a full mechanized one. Similarly, the Soviet tank 3-5 vs. 4-5 were different models. The variation in individual unit strength may not be significant on such a scale.

The more varied counter mix and wider combat strength in WiF makes the randomness a great mechanic for WiF.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 15
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 12/29/2005 11:46:21 AM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I am trying to make my task list shorter, not longer. Implementing the rules in WIF FE is my base line.


And I wouldn't want you to stray away from that for a moment, it was just a thought of a different type of fog of war.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 16
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 1/6/2006 12:33:21 AM   
Dahnyul

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline
A masked strength is an Interesting idea.

My first thought was that the variation in performance is accounted for in the CRT via the dice roll. However, it occurs to me that the dice roll is random from battle to battle, and doesn't reflect any inherent difference between units persistent beyond a single battle.

One of the down sides of slight variations of strength was the way it allowed for some very arbitrary 'gaming', in some games, via the moving units around simply to get the perfect odds in an attack.

Later games have compensated somewhat by penalising movement by adding MP costs for disengaging units. Thus, more often than not you had a more realistic feeling situation where battles were engaged in with the best units you had on currently engaged, and those you could bring to bear. However, this is more common as the game scale gets smaller. In larger scale games, the movement is more abstracted and disengagement penalites are less common and less justified.

So, with the down side of strength variations gone, it's all upside.

Now, would a masked strength be an idea? Perhaps. Very unsettliing sending a unit into battle with NO idea of it's strength. Perhaps a little less jarring would be an effectiveness attribute (a combination, possibly, of moral, experience and leadershiip) that is not assigned until a units first battle. It would give credence to the concept of 'battle tested'.

The effect of such an attribute would have to be at least significant in the combat resolution algorithm.

Having said that, there is no reason to think any of this is specifically intended for WIF. I would think a straight port of the existing game would be challenging enough.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 17
RE: I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about... - 1/6/2006 1:34:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
The straight port is challenging enough. True, true.

Some of what you mentioned is really a function of the game scale. With corps and army size units and two month turns, 'green' units are less likely to occur. The powers-that-be knew they were putting their best recruits into the airborne corps, or special armored corps.

At the divisional level, unit experince level is more appropriate. Not to say it was irrelevant at the corps and army level, just that it was less important than the equipment and logistical support the unit had.

Given a fresh new US army corps that had no, or relatively little, combat experience, there would be some divisions that performed well and others that didn't. The numbers in WIF reflect an average of those disparate abilitiy levels for the divisions. The random draw of the corps sized units from the force pool reflects that some of the corps ended up being stronger in combat for any of a number of different reasons. After a two month period in combat, the upper echelon had a good idea what their corps/armies were capable of. The randomness of the combat results table reflects some of the variability in the performance of individual units over time.

Just idle opinions on my part.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Dahnyul)
Post #: 18
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> I played Third Reich so I'd like to know more about WIF? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.984