Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

The Aligning Yugoslavia Option.

I have never tried this in a game yet, but would like to. I Have a few questions, though, for those that have.


I. It looks like '40 is the best year to try this, correct, after USSR has claimed Bessarabia?
II. Assuming not at war yet, do you usually DoW on the CW before Greece so you can get German support ie Para's etc. or do you DoW on both CW a Greece the same impulse?
III. Assuming Greece goes well...well this is where I am having trouble with this option.
i. If Germany is planning Barb in 41 he is going to have to give up Bessarabia, by not DoW on Yugo before the USSR makes the claim, which I'm sure he can be convinced is best. But this means that for approx. 4 turns you have to keep the CW from aligning Yugo. With the CW not having much else to worry about from Germany, this seems like a real gamble. For those that have aligned Yugo, is it really worth the risk?
ii. If Germany is going Sealion or Med strategy it makes things easier as far as Italy is concerned. Does Germany then DoW on Rumania asap or do you wait till '42 when germany will probably DoW on USSR?

Hope you guys can help me better understand this play.

In keeping with this thread, depending on the replies, I would think that this would be a very low percentage strategy for the AI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

The Aligning Yugoslavia Option.

I have never tried this in a game yet, but would like to. I Have a few questions, though, for those that have.


I. It looks like '40 is the best year to try this, correct, after USSR has claimed Bessarabia?
II. Assuming not at war yet, do you usually DoW on the CW before Greece so you can get German support ie Para's etc. or do you DoW on both CW a Greece the same impulse?
III. Assuming Greece goes well...well this is where I am having trouble with this option.
i. If Germany is planning Barb in 41 he is going to have to give up Bessarabia, by not DoW on Yugo before the USSR makes the claim, which I'm sure he can be convinced is best. But this means that for approx. 4 turns you have to keep the CW from aligning Yugo. With the CW not having much else to worry about from Germany, this seems like a real gamble. For those that have aligned Yugo, is it really worth the risk?
ii. If Germany is going Sealion or Med strategy it makes things easier as far as Italy is concerned. Does Germany then DoW on Rumania asap or do you wait till '42 when germany will probably DoW on USSR?

Hope you guys can help me better understand this play.

In keeping with this thread, depending on the replies, I would think that this would be a very low percentage strategy for the AI.

Except for the fact that US Entry chits are more likely to be of higher value (which may be enough to justify waiting), there's really no reason why Italy can't DOW Greece in S/O'39. If I intended to do that, I'd get Germany to DOW at the same time, giving them the chance to align Bulgaria. Bulgaria has 2 units that can both move into Greece. If Italy has set up solid forces in Albania, there should be a good chance of taking Greece in a single turn. The CW would have to really strip away other more important areas to try to grab Yugoslavia by supporting Greece this early.

If these 3 things ALL trigger US chit draws, it's bad -- but if you want Yugoslavia for Italy, it's a chance you might want to take. I've beta-tested this scenario several times. It's certainly possible to do.

As for timing, I'm less certain. It would be nice to have Yugoslavia early, for the RP there, but you do have to wait on Germany aligning Rumania. They don't have to do that as soon as they DOW the USSR, and probably shouldn't until they can get some backup troops down there. I guess the key idea is to have Yugoslavia avilable for the large numbers of troops they have, plus the backup home nation for Italy. That just means the Italians have to be able to align it before the Allies try to make a landing in Italy.
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Edit: I have very little practical experience with WiF as a board game, so my thoughts may be quite skewed due to some of the things I do in solitaire mode beta-testing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

That may be unpleasant, but wouldn't the USSR find it impossible to "support" Greece? They can't get any TRS through from the Black Sea if Istanbul is not Allied controlled, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
11.4.4 Naval movement restrictions
3. You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (even via Panderma) unless Istanbul is friendly controlled.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
19.6 Soviet border rectification
19.6.1 Finland
19.6.2 Rumania

19.8 Allied minor countries
Brazil - USA
Bulgaria - The Soviet border rectification rule (see 19.6) explains when the USSR can declare Bulgaria aligned with it.
Central America – USA
Mexico – USA
Mongolia - Mongolia is a minor country aligned with the USSR in every scenario.
Yugoslavia – Commonwealth

19.9 Netherlands East Indies

19.11 French African minors

19.12 The Ukraine (option 62)

quote:

Where does it say, “If there is a early USSR - Japan war then Greece can be aligned to USSR”?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2 Entering the war), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it.

Whoever takes control of them in or sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4 Minor country units).

19.3 Who can enter the minor
It is aligned with a neutral major power on your side and the unit entering is one of that major power’s unit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The USSR doesn’t need a war for that. It can be an neutral major power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2 Entering the war), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it.

Whoever takes control of them in or sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4 Minor country units).

quote:

RAC 19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
• a major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
• it aligns with a major power (see 9.8).
If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power. If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country in the Americas, it may only align with the USA. When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3), it may only align with the Commonwealth.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1).

quote:

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Post #: 10

More to the point, here is how it is described in the Players Manual.

7.7.6 Choosing Major Power for Attacked Minor Countries (RAC 9.7)
If during the second subphase of this phase, a major power declared war on a minor country, then the attacked minor country has to be aligned to a major power on the other side. Each of the eligible major powers that can align the minor are asked, in the order that their capitals are closest to the capital of the attacked minor country. See RAC section 9.7 for the definition of which major powers are ‘eligible’. The first major power that accepts aligning the minor does so. If none of the major powers is willing to align the minor, then the minor country immediately surrenders (see section 7.4.25 for a description of the process of surrendering).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Mine as it shows, are taken from WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf (World in Flames Final Edition 7.0).

This will preclude the use of “Peace Keepers” in MWiF. Here is what Steve posted in 2008.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Post #: 10

More to the point, here is how it is described in the Players Manual.

7.7.6 Choosing Major Power for Attacked Minor Countries (RAC 9.7)
If during the second subphase of this phase, a major power declared war on a minor country, then the attacked minor country has to be aligned to a major power on the other side. Each of the eligible major powers that can align the minor are asked, in the order that their capitals are closest to the capital of the attacked minor country. See RAC section 9.7 for the definition of which major powers are ‘eligible’. The first major power that accepts aligning the minor does so. If none of the major powers is willing to align the minor, then the minor country immediately surrenders (see section 7.4.25 for a description of the process of surrendering).

Steve didn't post RAC 9.7 in 2008.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Mine as it shows, are taken from WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf (World in Flames Final Edition 7.0).

This will preclude the use of “Peace Keepers” in MWiF. Here is what Steve posted in 2008.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Post #: 10

More to the point, here is how it is described in the Players Manual.

7.7.6 Choosing Major Power for Attacked Minor Countries (RAC 9.7)
If during the second subphase of this phase, a major power declared war on a minor country, then the attacked minor country has to be aligned to a major power on the other side. Each of the eligible major powers that can align the minor are asked, in the order that their capitals are closest to the capital of the attacked minor country. See RAC section 9.7 for the definition of which major powers are ‘eligible’. The first major power that accepts aligning the minor does so. If none of the major powers is willing to align the minor, then the minor country immediately surrenders (see section 7.4.25 for a description of the process of surrendering).

Steve didn't post RAC 9.7 in 2008.

Even more to the point: I'm assuming I have the same PDF you do for RAW FE 7.0 and that's where I got the quote for 19.2 which states that the major power has to be active. What this means is that I've added a note to my files to make the correction to the Player's Manual (which I am helping Steve to edit). This will pass by a number of eyes before it gets into the final copy.

My take: The Manual is in error, and 19.2 can't be discarded. In terms of how MWiF functions right now, RAW 19.2 is used to determine who can align a DOWed Minor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

Yes, but you could easily wait till his TRS have been committed, usually the 1st impulse, 2nd at the latest, then go in.

Plus, the more I look at it I just don't see how the Italians could stop the CW from getting 4 corps into Greece...with all the little isles in Eastern Med that should be relatively easy for the CW to put out of supply and invade onto. Once the 4 corps are in Greece then they can align Yugo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

Yes. The earlier France can be removed from Europe the better. Messing around in the Balkans is a small price to pay if France falls a couple of turns earlier (with minimal Axis losses and expenditure of O-chits).

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The effect on US entry is somewhat lesened by Allies aligning Yugoslavia. What I do not like about this is the US entry roll for Allies support attacked minor.

Still, I really like to know that I have no interference from CW in Netherlands and Belgium.

Yes. The earlier France can be removed from Europe the better. Messing around in the Balkans is a small price to pay if France falls a couple of turns earlier (with minimal Axis losses and expenditure of O-chits).

yes , and Yugoslavia is totally easy to conquer ... then you will have cw units without support ...

I have seen a big 1941 CW army being out of supply in the Balkans .. it cost the CW around 100 BP .. in land units, planes, pilots, transports.

a stupid mistake.. they had moved up in Yugoslavia ..but had no CP in the Italian sea. so a lucky Italian invasion in Salonica. so they had only 1 real supply port ... stupid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I'm not convinced how easy it is to stuff Greece with 4 CW corps. Say you stick them all on TRS, shipped from the CW. You have no Marines or Amph, so the initial port taking will have to be with a div on a cruiser. But that in turn means you'll need to have the TRS sit in the Med for an impulse. When the Italians DoW you on that surprise impulse, even their little Gabbiano can chew up your TRS, the CW AA values are awful. If I even sink one, the entire strategy is busted. If you negate surprise by DoWing Italy first, that's effectively a 19 shift on the U.S. entry. (-12 for Allied DoW on Italy, not getting the 7 for Italian DoW on the WAllies.) That starts getting awfully expensive just to pick up Yugoslavia.......