RE: AI for MWiF-Italy

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/27/2013 10:05:06 PM

peskpesk

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While brainstorming for Strategic plans for Italy I got side tracked due to the fact the Italian strategic planning is heavy dependent on which Grand Strategic plan Germany has chosen. So Italy needs to choose and reevaluate its plan in according to how Germany is going to deal with its strategic problem of France, the USSR, the United Kingdom, and the Mediterranean. Of course Italy also need to have a plan to help support the current Grand Strategic plan.

German Grand Strategic Plans

A. Historical: Poland, France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
B. Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): Poland, France then Barbarossa with Italian air support
C. Close the Mediterranean and Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Med, then Barbarossa
D. Close the Mediterranean and Sea Lion: Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
E. Sealion and Barbarossa: Poland, France, Sealion, then Barbarossa
F. France First, Close the Mediterranean and East option: France, Close the Med, then Barbarossa option or USSR sitzkrieg
G. France First, Sealion and East option: France, Sealion, then Barbarossa option or USSR sitzkrieg
H. France First, Close the Mediterranean and Sealion: France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
I. France First, 1940 Barbarossa and North Africa: France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
J. France First , 1940 Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): France, then Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
K. Immediate Barbarossa: Poland, France sitzkrieg and 1940 Barbarossa
L. Immediate Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): Immediate Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
M. Close the Mediterranean and Middle-East: Poland, France, Close the Med, then Middle-East(Syria,Iraq,Iran), USSR sitzkrieg.
N. Big Middle-Eastern Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Med, Syria then Turkey and a Barbarossa(even though the USSR might declare war first), possible also Iraq and Iran
O. Small Middle-Eastern Barbarossa: Poland, France, North Africa,Syria, then Turkey and a Barbarossa(even though the USSR might declare war first) , possible also Iraq and Iran

Strategic plans need from Italy to support German Grand Strategic Plans

A. Barbarossa with Massive Air support( kitchen sink):
B. Close the Mediterranean
C. Sea Lion
D. France
E. France First
F. North Africa
G. Middle-East
H. Barbarossa

Have I missed anything? (Of course there are some more Strategic plan for Italy, but they are not tied to German Grand Strategic plans)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/27/2013 10:41:35 PM >

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/28/2013 6:24:37 AM

Extraneous

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peskpesk don't get the wrong impression I think your outline is well thought out and a good rough draft.

I hope you don't mind my editing of it.

German Grand Strategy

The Polish Campaign a compulsory declaration and the Danish Campaign to close the Baltic Sea.

Germany grand strategy needs to establish its priority as either "the Eastern Front (the USSR)" or "the Western Front (France)" .

Priority: "the Eastern Front (the USSR)" and "All quiet on the Western Front (France and the Mediterranean)"
"The Barbarossa Campaign" (A.K.A. the Great Patriotic War)
A. Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
B. Barbarossa 1940.

Priority: "the Western Front (France)"
The French Campaign followed by:
C. Historical: North Africa (June 10, 1940 to May 13, 1943) then Barbarossa (June 22, 1941 to May 9, 1945)
D. Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
E. Sealion followed by "the Eastern Front option".
F. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) followed by "the Eastern Front option".
G. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) followed by Sealion.
H. "Middle East Campaign" (Large): Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower), Syria, Turkey, then Barbarossa.
I. "Middle East Campaign" (Small): North Africa, Syria, Turkey, then Barbarossa.

The French Campaign along with:
J. The Two Front War: Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
K. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) then Barbarossa.
L. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) then Sealion.
M. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) then the Middle East (Syria, Iraq, Iran) followed by "the Eastern Front" option.
N. Sealion then Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
O. The Three Front War: Barbarossa 1940 and North Africa

Italy needs to support all German Grand Strategies with the exceptions of the Polish Campaign, the Danish Campaign, and any Northern European Campaigns.

Notes:
"The Eastern Front option" ~ is Barbarossa or an optional German/USSR sitzkrieg or Phony War.

Each "Middle East Campaign" includes:
The Possible declarations of war on or alignment of Iraq and Iran; and
That the USSR might declare war on Germany first.

Barbarossa ~ War with the USSR
Barbarossa 1940 ~ Germany declares war on the USSR in 1940
Barbarossa (the kitchen sink) ~ land and air units are prioritized to the war with the USSR.

Questions
With option A: Barbarossa (the kitchen sink) does Germany continue through Poland (not waiting for conquest) into the USSR?
With Priority: "the Western Front (France)" when do the Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands) come into play?

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/8/2013 9:54:17 PM

peskpesk

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The name suggestions are fine.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/8/2013 10:05:06 PM

peskpesk

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MALTA (Historical name Operation Herkules (Italian amphibious landing supported by German airborne forces (Fallschirmj�ger) to take Malta)

Below is a rough outcast on how the AIO could reason over Malta when not at war with CW (other factors not mention below are of course too important, ex US Entry, Situation with France, German strategy etc.).

CW Situation:
� At peace
Primary Plan: With medium probability consider declaring war on the CW if Malta could be taken without having to cut supply to the island first.
Secondary Plan: With low probability consider declaring war on the CW if Malta could be taken but needs to have its supply cut first.

Modifications:

Increased DOW probability if CW has navy at Malta.
Slightly decreased DOW probability if Malta is in supply.
Increased DOW probability if Malta is not in supply.
Decreased DOW probability if Italy is at war with France.
Slightly decreased DOW probability if Malta heavy defended
�

Malta Situation:
� Malta Undefended
Primary Plan: DOW CW and invade it during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and Paradrop it during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan:

� Malta weak defended (Div/brigade, ex Royal engineers)
Primary Plan: DOW CW and invade it during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and paradrop it during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to cut supply and then do Primary Plan or Secondary Plan or both if attack force not strong enough.

� Malta defended (1-2 CORP/ARMY/DIV/brigade black print, ex 5-4 INF)
Primary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then Invade, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then paradrop, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to cut supply, try disrupt the defenders with ground strikes, and then do Primary Plan or Secondary Plan or both if attack force not strong enough.

� Malta heavy defended (1-2 CORP/ARMY/DIV/brigade at least one white print, ex 6-4 INF)
Primary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then Invade, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then paradrop, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to cut supply; try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes, and then do Primary Plan and Secondary Plan if attack force not strong enough.

� Malta has air cover (1-2 FTR/TAC/NAV, ex one 5 factor FTR)
Primary Plan: DOW CW when superior air force in position and ready to handle enemy planes, then depending on the situation continue with one of the appropriate plans.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, and then depending on then depending on the situation continue with one of the appropriate plans.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to disrupt the enemy plans with ground strikes, and then depending on the situation continue with one of the appropriate plans.

During all plans is naval ground support and escorts needed considered, air ground support and escort is also considered.

Things to ponder over:
1) How do you think the AIO should plan the assault?
2) What is the rough minimum forces estimate need for Italy to have ready in order to fulfill the needs of a Plan? Ex if Malta is undefended and SCS invasion are allowed the minimum force needed to do the Primary Plan could be: 1 Inf Div and 1 CA.
3) What situations could affect the DOW probabilities?
4) What options affect how the AIO should plan the assault?
5) How to cut the supply to Malta
6) What quick reactions can the Allies do when the Axis are attacking Malta?

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/8/2013 10:17:54 PM

brian brian

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The AIO has to decide during set-up if it might want to to do this, by breaking down a corps for extra divisions to invade with.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/10/2013 9:50:51 PM

peskpesk

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I always recommend that Italy breaks down an army into to two DIVs (if possible) during setup.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/10/2013 9:53:31 PM

peskpesk

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Which major powers Italy declares war on is heavy dependent on which Grand Strategic plan Germany has chosen. But the most interesting and dynamic choice Italy has is DOWing France and/or the CW and when to enter the war. Each strategy has its own advantage and disadvantage, below I have just tried to summarize the France and/or the CW choice.

France only:
Advantage:
- Gibraltar and Suez open
- Germany can attack the Alps with Italian support
- German units can relatively safely be ship to North Africa (French navy is a lesser threat)
- British fleet left out before war
- Invasion\naval ground support in southern France possible(French navy is a lesser threat)
- Invasion of Syria (possibly activation of Iraq)
- Invasion of Algeria (Algerian resource, even march to Morocco) possible
- Capture of Tunisia with a march from Libya
- Port attack on French fleet might be possible (Bern, TRS)
- Possible blocking/attacks on French reinforcements returning to France
- Attack French Somaliland
- Attack Corsica
- Attack French Alps
- Fewer French units possible to be sent home to France
- Possible attacks on French convoys
- Italian units (often air units) can be sent to aid Germany against France
- Catch FR navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of a nasty surprise attack by CW
- Possibly second U.S. entry-roll required
- A large BEF possible to be sent to French aide
- CW has time to reinforce Mediterranean holdings before war with Italy
- Small use of frogmen (only Bern, TRS important targets)
- German units in North Africa have trouble with supply if CW acts (only presence in sea area need to block supply)
- Multiple states war of is often more complicated and different tactics/strategies may apply (Ex If Italy is at war with France, Italy can attack Commonwealth forces in France, even though Italy and Commonwealth is not at war)

CW only:
Advantage:
- Germany can attack the French Alps (without Italian support)
- French fleet left out before war
- Invasion of Malta
- Invasion of Cyprus
- Invasion of Egypt
- Invasion of Palestine
- Invasion of Gibraltar
- using Frogmen for lucrative targets (TRS, CV)
- Possible attacks on CW convoys
- Blockade of the Mediterranean
- Attack Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
- Fewer BEF units possible to be sent to French aide
- You may never need to declare war on France (Germany can defeat them without support, no risk for Italy)
- German forces may be shipped to Libya to Attack CW or FR holdings
- May get second surprise, with a DOW on CW
- Italian units (often air units) can be sent to aid Germany against the CW
- Catch CW navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of a surprise attack by the French
- Possibly second U.S. entry-roll required
- Risk of not having time to capture French holdings in the Med before Vichy government is installed
- German units in North Africa has trouble with supply if FR acts (only presence in sea area need to block supply)
- Multiple states of war is often more complicated and different tactics/strategies may apply (Ex If Italy is at war with France, Italy can attack Commonwealth forces in France, even though Italy and Commonwealth is not at war)
- No Italian aid to Germany against the France

CW and France:
Advantage:
- Only one U.S. entry-roll
- Invasion of Syria and attack from Libya Syria allows a simultaneous pincer attack on Suez
- No risk of nasty surprise attack
- German units in North Africa has no trouble with supply
- No Multiple states of war, less complicated tactics/strategies
- Catch CW/FR navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of facing a combined CW/FR fleet
- Italian plans more difficult to implement due to heavier resistance in the Med
- Due to low activities limits risk Italy can�t use the surprise to its full extent, targets may slip away. Compare with two DOWs at different time.

Any thoughts on when to use either choice or when Italy should enter the war?

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/12/2013 7:40:48 AM

brian brian

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Well peskpesk you certainly work hard on these questions, thank you.

I hate to do it, but I would suggest the script-writer has to answer another question first. Defining the Axis war aims comes before Italian DOW policy, sure.

You set that up well several posts ago. But how much Italy will support Germany is part of a question that has been part of this thread for all 8 years it has been here - will the Italian AI act like a German minor ally, as many players will command the Italian pieces? (And they would certainly be free to do so against an Allied AI.) Will the AI play as in a multi-player game, or as in a 2-player game? Will there be a switch a player can set for the AI to play "non-historically", possibly to a radical degree?

I can't recall if those questions have ever been answered. But the idea of the Italy AI not declaring war on the Allies, keeping their army in Italy, carefully withdrawing a gun and INF from Libya whenever the CW CV aren't looking, and building all air units to bomb Russians (i.e. playing to the game system, which rewards this) ... will cause waves with some people. (Not me).

Leaving that aside, there is that option of no DOW on the Western Allies at all. Radical, but possible.

If Germany wants to take Gibraltar, I think Italy should go all in on the first turn. Break down the MTN corps at set-up and invade Oran if the French leave it empty, via a dual DOW. That is the best Italian strategy. Pressure the Gibraltar front as soon as possible. Not as much surprise-bang against the CW unless their CVs are out in the West Med already, looking to Pearl Harbor you, then things can get interesting. But more economical on US Entry, and avoids CW surprise strike later. That is the best solution to adding all those pluses and minuses, imo.

There is one Axis grand strategy that ties all 3 Axis countries together. Poland-France-Gibraltar-Middle East-Russia. That was somewhat on the list, but I just wanted to emphasize the Middle East part. The Axis not only closes the Med, but takes all 6 oil in the Middle East. This works better with a Japanese commitment in the Indian Ocean for a time to help defend the southern flank of the Middle East, for which they can be paid with some oil. Then a 2 front 1942 Barbarossa, grinding up the Red Army as much as possible and taking the Ukraine, but with some of the choicest Axis resources (and O-Chits) deployed to break into Russia from the south to align Turkey, further strengthening the possible defense of the Middle East to keep that oil flowing to Axis storage tanks. If the Axis get all of that oil for enough turns (quite possibly overlooked by the Allies fixated on breaking back into the Med from the west), they might be able to build a strong enough war machine to withstand the USA, even without pushing the Russians off the European map. A very active strategy for Italy all the way through. One of 2 that can tie Euro-Axis and Japanese strategy together, along with a more straight-forward Conquer Russia strategic goal.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/12/2013 8:45:10 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Brian,

The AIO will play as one unified opponent. However, there are many reasons why the decision making should be fragmented. I would argue that human opponents do that all the time.

The decisions aren't what sea areas should the Allied side occupy this turn, but rather what sea areas should the Commonwealth, then the French, then the US, then the ... occupy. Even more fragmentation takes place with the Atlantic and the Pacific being viewed as virtually separate decision making processes at the operational and tactical level. The are overall strategic decisions, but they are also made for each major power in turn. Merging all the units on one side into tactical plans is rare. The rules force the players to think n terms of action limits, build points, force pools, and the like. All of those are per major power.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/12/2013 3:16:30 PM

brian brian

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I would agree completely Steve. But all those decisions flow from a root decision of what are the Axis/Allies aiming to do in the war. (Axis - break the CW or break Russia or sitzkrieg it and make the Allies break them; Allies - Japan first or Europe first).

Using the Italians as an independent air force in Russia is a very powerful combination of strategy & tactics, but is a WiF game system strategy only for the most part, and players do just that - merging a lot of one country's units into another's tactical plans. It is a well known part of the game amongst regular players.

Mussolini famously asked for a lot of raw materials from Germany. Perhaps had the Germans agreed to that, he would have agreed to merely fly panes while German boots controlled all conquests and got all the glory and his army sat in Italy. Doesn't sound like even a well paid-off Mussolini to me. It is a famous part of the study of possible ways the Axis could have won the war (a reason we all play wargames) "If only Italy and Germany had a more unified strategy..." So programming their 2 AI's has to answer the question of just how unified will it make them and how much the AI will play to the action limits game system vs. playing to a more rational appearing set of tactics. The AI will have to defend itself from such tactics.

Some western Allied teams will mimic that with a large RAF backing a potent US Army. Would Churchill go for that?

Although I would be OK seeing the AI I am playing use such tricks, not all customers would be. The old idea of having a switch that could be set on this topic is a valid idea.

Right from the first turn of deciding to issue an Italian DOW, or what units the Italians build and where they put them; this part of World in Flames comes into play for writing an AI to do it.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/12/2013 3:35:44 PM

brian brian

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Going back to Malta decisions for Italy. First decision - set up extra divisions via breakdown. Downsides: Increases risk of pre-emptive CW DOW unless you pull the trigger on the Axis second impulse of the game. Not necessary for kitchen sink Barbarossa, but perhaps is a good, small feint at set-up.

Is closing the Med part of the strategy list? Then invade Malta on a surprise impulse when empty should possibly weigh more than invading an empty Oran on a surprise impulse. An empty Malta should weigh high when the Axis is planning an anti-CW strategy. Any defense of Malta will have to trigger a multi-turn plan to take it, possibly with the help of some German units, though a valid option is to take Gibraltar first.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/12/2013 4:40:54 PM

michaelbaldur

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quote:

with a large RAF backing a potent US Army. Would Churchill go for that?

he did.

if you look at France and Italy. there USA had more troops then the CW. (something like a 1/3 was CW)

but how do we define CW units.

if we look at units from UK, they were a minority on the battlefields

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/12/2013 4:55:47 PM

brian brian

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I mean to the point of not building and deploying Montgomery's army group, thus not taking the objective hex of Kiel with Commonwealth boots on the ground, for example, though come to think of it, the Germans held that one at the end of the Mar/Apr 45 turn. Anyway, that can happen in game of WiF but would be completely un-Churchill-like.

RAF fighter-bombers were certainly potent teamed up with US Army ground units at times. It probably helped tremendously that those 2 Allies both spoke the same language. I just don't see the Italian air force serving very well as flying artillery for the Wehrmacht, but in the game it works flawlessly. Not something MWiF can address but has to be considered for just exactly what the AI might do. We know what the players do.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/23/2013 7:50:16 AM

peskpesk

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Here is a rough outline of how Italy could attack Egypt. Here is what I have so far:
(The situation could be when France is "Viched" or when Italy is only at war with Commonwealth)

Dominate Eastern Mediterranean Sea
- Major Air force in Sicily, FTR adjacent costal hexes

2 Box

- Threaten port strike on CW navy
- Stop reinforcements
- �

Tobruk/Bardia(red)
- Land attack along the Coast

Alexandria
Adjacent hexes to Alexandria
Rebase planes to try to cut Red Sea supply

- Outflanking sacrifice force, go around Qattara Depression

Asyut
Cairo

- Reinforce

Palestine(grey)
+Invade
- Land attack along the Coast

Suez Canal
Port Said
Jerusalem

- Attack Jordan

Amman

- Rebase planes to try to cut Red Sea supply
- Reinforce

Cyprus(Light blue)
+Invade

Farmagusta

- Air support possibilities
- Para drop possibilities
- Support Central Egypt coast/ Palestine invasions
- Reinforce

Central Egypt coast(yellow)
+ Invade

Damietta

- Expand inland

Port Said
Suez
Cairo
Suez Canal

- Try to cut Alexandria supply
- Rebase planes to try to cut Red Sea supply
- Reinforce

Suggestions?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/23/2013 7:54:31 AM >

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/24/2013 3:14:01 PM

Centuur

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Add: capture Anglo-Egyptian Soedan out of Eritrea/Etiopia...

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/24/2013 3:23:31 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Add: capture Anglo-Egyptian Soedan out of Eritrea/Etiopia...

I think that is already added but in the plan for Italian East Africa.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/24/2013 3:23:54 PM

Orm

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Maybe the invasion Egypt area (yellow) should include Port Said?

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/24/2013 5:05:33 PM

composer99

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Yes, Port Said should be in the Italian AIO's invasion area. Especially if not playing with the amphibious invasion rules (such that corps-size units can invade of TRS).

Granted that cautious CW play would leave Port Said either covered by a unit or in a ZoC, or failing that have the ability to knock an invading division back into the sea, nevertheless, if for some reason it's open, it's a great spot to invade.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/24/2013 6:12:37 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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It might even be possible to invade Suez directly. Italy would have to pass invasion units through the Suez canal first, and then DOW the Commonwealth and invade. But, an invasion force in the Red Sea might make the Commonwealth defend Aden before Suez.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/25/2013 1:19:09 PM

Extraneous

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Suez cannot be invaded because while it is a coastal hex it doesn't have 1 all-sea hexside.

quote:

11.14 Invasions
Invasions allow land units to attack enemy held coastal hexes in a sea area you have transported them to.

You may only invade an enemy controlled coastal hex that has at least 1 all-sea hexside (at least part, but not necessarily all, of this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located). You can only invade with face-up land units on TRSs in the sea area. The TRS must be in the 1, 2, 3 or 4 section of the sea-box. Only infantry class units can invade.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/25/2013 4:52:45 PM

Orm

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Aden is now a mountain city making it an unlikely target for invasion by a division even during a surprise.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/25/2013 6:17:33 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Suez cannot be invaded because while it is a coastal hex it doesn't have 1 all-sea hexside.

quote:

11.14 Invasions
Invasions allow land units to attack enemy held coastal hexes in a sea area you have transported them to.

You may only invade an enemy controlled coastal hex that has at least 1 all-sea hexside (at least part, but not necessarily all, of this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located). You can only invade with face-up land units on TRSs in the sea area. The TRS must be in the 1, 2, 3 or 4 section of the sea-box. Only infantry class units can invade.

True.

But the hex next to Suez can be invaded and is also next to Cairo; capturing the latter conquers Egypt.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 352

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/25/2013 6:18:59 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Aden is now a mountain city making it an unlikely target for invasion by a division even during a surprise.

But if there are a lot of Commonwealth naval units present, it would be a tempting target.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 353

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/25/2013 6:41:07 PM

gridley

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Suez cannot be invaded because while it is a coastal hex it doesn't have 1 all-sea hexside.

quote:

11.14 Invasions
Invasions allow land units to attack enemy held coastal hexes in a sea area you have transported them to.

You may only invade an enemy controlled coastal hex that has at least 1 all-sea hexside (at least part, but not necessarily all, of this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located). You can only invade with face-up land units on TRSs in the sea area. The TRS must be in the 1, 2, 3 or 4 section of the sea-box. Only infantry class units can invade.

True. But the hex next to Suez can be invaded and is also next to Cairo; capturing the latter conquers Egypt.

So...looks like I have found a pretty major rule we have been playing wrong for too many years for me to mention.

We read "must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located" to mean the hex had to touch the dark blue sea area in order to invade it.

Oh well...I'm sure it won't be the last.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 354

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/25/2013 8:46:05 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Suez cannot be invaded because while it is a coastal hex it doesn't have 1 all-sea hexside.

quote:

11.14 Invasions
Invasions allow land units to attack enemy held coastal hexes in a sea area you have transported them to.

You may only invade an enemy controlled coastal hex that has at least 1 all-sea hexside (at least part, but not necessarily all, of this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located). You can only invade with face-up land units on TRSs in the sea area. The TRS must be in the 1, 2, 3 or 4 section of the sea-box. Only infantry class units can invade.

True. But the hex next to Suez can be invaded and is also next to Cairo; capturing the latter conquers Egypt.

So...looks like I have found a pretty major rule we have been playing wrong for too many years for me to mention.

We read "must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located" to mean the hex had to touch the dark blue sea area in order to invade it.

Oh well...I'm sure it won't be the last.

Here is how MWIF handles this confusing rule. In the main form the dark blue panel normally identifies to which sea areas the hex (under the cursor) is adjacent. Unless the text string "(no invasion)" is shown, then the hex can be invaded from the named sea area. This solution was a suggestion by Michael (Baldur).

I have pasted in an extra set of blue and maroon panels to show two hexes. Normally the large white panel in the upper right shows the UnitData for either a single unit under the cursor, or summary data for a group of units under the cursor. Since both of these hexes are empty, it was just a blank white area, so I pasted in the panels for hex (45, 36).

So, (46,36) cannot be invaded from the Baltic but can be invaded from the North Sea. Hex (45, 36) is adjacent to the same two sea areas, but from which one it can be invaded, is reversed.

---

Yesterday I was re-recording Chapter 6 of the Training Videos (previously recorded 4 years ago and sadly out-of-date) and used this example.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to gridley)

Post #: 355

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/26/2013 12:13:17 AM

Plainian

Posts: 212
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
Status: offline

Steve or anyone? Can someone mark up the hex on map below which is next to Suez and Cairo and is invadeable.....so i can follow this thread.

Not sure if the invasion is coming from the E.Med or Red Sea?

There was an excellent thread on invadeable coastal hexes a few years ago but I need a refresher on this if someone doesn't mind.

Edit - just to add that yes I can see which hex it should b,e but it doesn't look like a hex which can be invaded?

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

< Message edited by Plain Ian -- 8/26/2013 12:16:11 AM >

(in reply to peskpesk)

Post #: 356

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/26/2013 12:34:31 AM

Extraneous

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
True. But the hex next to Suez can be invaded and is also next to Cairo; capturing the latter conquers Egypt.

You can only do that if you use free set up.

Because unless you use free set up Italy is a Neutral major power and it's fleet sets up in Italy or Albania.

So Italy couldn't even send an SCS through Suez (a coastal/minor port hex).

quote:

9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a �neutral major power� if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it�s called an �active major power�.

Units controlled by a neutral major power can only enter hexes controlled by that major power, by a minor country aligned with it, or by a minor country it is at war with. They can also go to sea.

A neutral major power can�t co-operate with any other major power (see 18.Co-operation)

Neutral major powers must always pick either a pass or a combined action (exception Germany in 1939 ~ see 10.1). Each naval unit a neutral major power moves (rather than each task force) counts as 1 naval move - every 5 convoy points counts as a naval unit (SiF option 9: every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit).

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 357

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/26/2013 1:06:07 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Steve or anyone? Can someone mark up the hex on map below which is next to Suez and Cairo and is invadeable.....so i can follow this thread.

Not sure if the invasion is coming from the E.Med or Red Sea?

There was an excellent thread on invadeable coastal hexes a few years ago but I need a refresher on this if someone doesn't mind.

Edit - just to add that yes I can see which hex it should b,e but it doesn't look like a hex which can be invaded?

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The desert hex east of Cairo has two all-sea hexsides on the Red Sea (the Gulf of Suez technically). So it can be invaded from the Red Sea. Suez itself does not have an all-sea hexside - it has two hexsides on the Suez Canal instead.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Plainian)

Post #: 358

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/26/2013 1:17:20 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
True. But the hex next to Suez can be invaded and is also next to Cairo; capturing the latter conquers Egypt.

You can only do that if you use free set up.

Because unless you use free set up Italy is a Neutral major power and it's fleet sets up in Italy or Albania.

So Italy couldn't even send an SCS through Suez (a coastal/minor port hex).

quote:

9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a �neutral major power� if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it�s called an �active major power�.

Units controlled by a neutral major power can only enter hexes controlled by that major power, by a minor country aligned with it, or by a minor country it is at war with. They can also go to sea.

A neutral major power can�t co-operate with any other major power (see 18.Co-operation)

Neutral major powers must always pick either a pass or a combined action (exception Germany in 1939 ~ see 10.1). Each naval unit a neutral major power moves (rather than each task force) counts as 1 naval move - every 5 convoy points counts as a naval unit (SiF option 9: every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit).

Neutrals can move units through the Suez Canal. So as long as Italy isn't at war with the Commonwealth, Italy can move one of it transports with a range of 3 from Italy to the Italian Coast, Eastern Med, and then into the Red Sea. It could do that in the first impulse of the game. If need be, in the third impulse it could return to base to an Italian port on the Red Sea (Asmara in Eritrea), be reorganized by the Italian HQ which starts in Ethiopia, and go back to sea in the Red Sea in a higher section box in the fifth impulse.

This is all rather fanciful, for the Commonwealth player is likely to send some naval units (or naval air units) into the Red Sea to attack the lonely Italian transport, probably during the second or fourth impulse of the turn.

---

I think there was a discussion of Italy sending its transport through the straits of Gibraltar during the first impulse not too long ago. The idea there was that it could not be attacked in the first two impulses, so it had nothing to fear. Then in the third impulse it would return to base to a German port, giving the Axis another sea lift unit for invading the United Kingdom later in the game.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 359

RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/26/2013 1:42:14 AM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Steve or anyone? Can someone mark up the hex on map below which is next to Suez and Cairo and is invadeable.....so i can follow this thread.

Not sure if the invasion is coming from the E.Med or Red Sea?

There was an excellent thread on invadeable coastal hexes a few years ago but I need a refresher on this if someone doesn't mind.

Edit - just to add that yes I can see which hex it should b,e but it doesn't look like a hex which can be invaded?

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk