Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: ptey

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
As for the strategic choices of players at WIF tournaments, I believe the analogy to chess openings is appropriate. Over the years different chess openings have been popular. At different times one will be considered to provide the best opportunity to win. Eventually, someone comes up with counter moves that reduce the opening to a more equitable outcome, and the opening's popularity wans.

Clearly, chess, with its rigid rules set for the past 150 - 200 years, is not 'forcing' the players to play a certain opening. Rather the players are the variable and they are choosing an opening that they think gives them the best chance of winning. Over time, I suspect that WIF will evolve different responses to German/Axis strategic plans that will cause the choice of which strategic plan to employ to mutate too.

This is probably true. However this doesnt change the fact that some strategies are 'gamey'(that is, very strong strategies in specific situations, which are possible by the rules, but highly ahistorical and (i think) not intended by the designers) and most likely will be considered so by most players. There will ofcourse be degrees of 'gameyness'.

I will personally prefer to play against an ai that doesnt employ gamey tactics/strategies in every situation possible. Some people will ofcourse have different preferences, however i dont think that im alone with this opinion. Thus providing an option to have the ai not use any strategies or tactics flagged as gamey, should be acceptable for all. This will ofcourse require more work, but i dont think it will be that much.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Getting back to a Baltic state as a new home country for the Italians, ...

Yes, it seems strange. But in 1939, wouldn't having the Free French government set up in Gabon have seemed strange too? And all those other countries who had elements of their fighting forces operate out of England (e.g., Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland)? The capacity of armed forces to continue fighting for their country after the war is clearly lost is really quite astonishing. So, if the Italians had been given the opportunity by Hitler to occupy Estonia and later set up a home-away-from-home there, the likelihood of remaining Italian units being willing to continue fighting doesn't strike me as completely far-fetched.

Perhaps not completely far-fetched, but imo (based on my knowledge of history) extremely unlikely. I have never seen italy liberate the baltic states, but if someone did it in a game i participated in, with the intend of using them as back-up home countrys, i would consider it gamey. But i do ofcourse realize it is a legat move, and a house rule would be needed to prevent people from doing it.

This is in no way meant as a threat, but if you intend to teach the ai every gamey trick there is (and you can find quite a few by looking through the wiflist and from speaking with very experienced players i would think), i probably wouldnt have much fun playing against the ai and would buy the game only for pbem and netplay games.

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ORIGINAL: ptey

Thank you for the clarification, this sounds much like the kinda ai i would have fun playing against.

To go back on topic, I saw this http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/wifdiscussion/message/87958 post recently on the wiflist. I dont know if its alittle to vague for what you are looking for, but i think it has some nice points.

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ORIGINAL: ptey

Thank you for the clarification, this sounds much like the kinda ai i would have fun playing against.

To go back on topic, I saw this http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/wifdiscussion/message/87958 post recently on the wiflist. I dont know if its alittle to vague for what you are looking for, but i think it has some nice points.

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Italy is an integral part of the European Axis. It must not be played independently from Germany,
there should be but one strategy and one operational command. In practice, that means that the German player, with advice from the Italian player, should make strategic decisions, decide what and how much Italy builds, decide where Italian units are deployed and decide what action type Italy takes each impulse.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

I've often played against players that made Italy a puppet (they are the Con players that are ready to anything within the rules to win), and who ranked things differently : 1) to help Germany 2) to its defense and 3) to achieve its goals. These players often used Italian units to do the dirty job, and a couple a German units to captures the juicy objectives cities, this is all wrong for me. Italy must be given his own pride and leadership.

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I ALWAYS play Italy - Ge as ONE ...they need to both support and help each other who cares who captures what unless it has some specific gameplay purposes ei. who captures Athen in relation to who can allign Yoguslavia ...or who installs Vichy ...or who alligns Iraq etc etc.

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ORIGINAL: Incy

One thing that haven't been mentioned is that it can be a good ide to have italy install Vichy.
Vichy france shares activity limits with the installing power, and if it ever becomes active (very common if north africa is still french), the Vichy fleet will be a lot more effective if it has italian action limits.

To have italy install Vichy, italy must have a land unit in Paris upon Vichyfication. This is not always easy, but in many cases Paris falls early in a turn and italy can move a unit into Paris after the germans take the city. For this reason (and to help with garrission/holding flanks) I usually rail an italian (fastmoving) landunit to behind the french front as soon as possible.

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ORIGINAL: composer99

Italy is very unwise to put its home country in the Baltics after the fall of Italy. They are usually quick to be abandoned by the Wehrmacht when it is on the retreat from the USSR in '43-'44, and there is no way the Italians will be able to stand up to the Red Army. If Italy wants to ensure its survival, even if incompletely conquered, till the end of the game, it should probably avoid such a choice.

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For those that consider using a baltic country for resereve italian home land a bit gamey, I agree fully. It is firmly withing the rules, though, and quite important if using a strategy where Italy risks being knocked out early, with most of her air force abroad. If you see a conquest coming, you can even save some of your navy and land units. If the AIO is to have a chance at beating a player that plays in the same way, it needs all the advantages it can get. I, for one, find that my human opponent use these kinds of strategies all the time.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

While this is true, this needs to be REALLY fine tuned, because, if it is not, traying to "save some of your navy and land units" can accelerate Italy's fall.

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ORIGINAL: hakon
I fully agree. Italy should attempt to keep the allies from achieving the "biggest garrison" requirement for as long as they can. In fact, in the original post, i did stress that you try to hold Italy for as long as possible, by a stubborn defense. But do keep in mind the context (all out barbarossa, including Bessarabia Gambit), here. If you cannot crush the USSR or lure the allies into invading France early, the allies will be in a position to conquer Italy in 1943 or 1944 at the latest.

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Saving whatever remains of the navy is reasonably easy, since they can always just return to another port, outside of Italy. Saving land forces is usually restricted to what you can rail/transport out of italy in the last turn, and then ONLY if you know that there is no way to keep italy alive for more than 1-2 turns more.

Saving any unflipped aircraft stationed in italy can be achieved by using it to fly naval air (and then land in Yugoslavia/France), or by simple rebase, which can usually be achieved with a simple air impulse.

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The only situation where I would consider preparing for evacuation of Italy, would be late 43 and onwards, and only if the allies station enough troops in the med to be able to guarantee a conquest of Italy. The decision to flee should ideally be taken at the beginning of a turn instead of at the end, to save as many aircraft as possible. (Saving 10 aircraft, Graziani and a few inf/mech/arm is worth it even if italy falls 1 turn earlier, imo.)

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

My own experience was always to try to hang to Italy the longest possible. I never "evacuated" early as you describe. My opinion is that, gaining a turn may make you gaining a whole season, sometimes a year, because the turn you gain might be the latest "usable" turn for the Allies to conquer Italy in the year.

I have often seen Italy being conquered 1 year latter than it could have had because of reasons linked to lost impulses for the Allies. Impulses can be lost to organisation problems (either because of the Axis antishipping actions, or because of poor TRS rebasing, poor planning, etc...), or because of the Weather, or other fronts needs.

So, as Italy, I want to add whatever reasons for the Allies to lose time conquering me, because the fall of Italy is a real bottleneck in the progression of the Allies in Europe, hence in the game. The longer I hold, the longer they are paralyzed trying to make me fall.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Incy

One thing that haven't been mentioned is that it can be a good ide to have italy install Vichy.
Vichy france shares activity limits with the installing power, and if it ever becomes active (very common if north africa is still french), the Vichy fleet will be a lot more effective if it has italian action limits.

To have italy install Vichy, italy must have a land unit in Paris upon Vichyfication. This is not always easy, but in many cases Paris falls early in a turn and italy can move a unit into Paris after the germans take the city. For this reason (and to help with garrission/holding flanks) I usually rail an italian (fastmoving) landunit to behind the french front as soon as possible.

I've never seen Vich France active in 15 games. Not even hostile.
Why a western ally would make it active or hostile ? Nothing warrants that. If North Africa is Vichy, just don't go there. The cons outbalance the pro imo.
I always prefered to land in France, force the Axis to collapse, and then Vichy territory becomes Free French.

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If Germany would be in supply and hold Rome at the end of the next year they could liberate Italy for a year.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

(1) Why for a year?

(2) If the Wallies take Rome back (from the Germans who liberated Italy), now Italy is conquered a second time, and this time this is a complete conquest whatever minor country they still control.

So, as the German, it would be very unwise to liberate Italy if you are not able to keep it until the end of the game.

(3) Also, if you take back Rome, and that you do not liberate Italy; I seem to remember that now the Italians no longer cooperate with you.

So taking Rome back as the Germans who just lost it to the Wallies is not something I'm willing to do.

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(1) Ok, My mistake. I thought you said (over a year ago in a previous thread) that conquest was a yearly thing. 13.7 Peace is the end of each turn.

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(2) I thought earlier in the thread it was agreed Italy was to align Yugoslavia (Cbohem post #65) and Italy installing Vichy.

IMO it is very dangerous to let Italy install Vichy without aligning a minor country or to allow the USA to declare war on Italy separately.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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If Germany would be in supply and hold Rome at the end of the next year they could liberate Italy for a year.

Why for a year ?
If the Wallies take Rome back (from the Germans who liberated Italy), now Italy is conquered a second time, and this time this is a complete conquest whatever minor country they still control.

So, as the German, it would be very unwise to liberate Italy if you are not able to keep it untill the end of the game.
Also, if you take back Rome, and that you do not liberate Italy, I seem to remember that now the Italians no longer cooperate with you.

So taking Rome back as the Germans who just lost it to the Wallies is not something I'm willing to do.

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ORIGINAL: petracelli

Have been reading through suggested strategy and building and would just like to add some thoughts.

Italy to be able to survive especially if the Allies are going to come after her first if the med is not closed needs Nav and Ftr's to survive. It is all vey well saying it should commit a large number of air untis to Russia but if the Allies have Gib then you can expect Sardina to be under threat very early indeed.

To able to avoid this situation then Italy needs' to build Nav and it needs them sooner rather than later closley follwed by Ftr's.

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If the Germans have gone for a 41 Barb they should be requesting the long range FW 190's to protect the Med sea zones.

If Germany goes after Gib then all the Nav come sin very useful in clearing the Brits out of Cape St Vincent and then the Bay.

With Gib in Axis hands Italy can then turn it's little eyes on the middle east and looking to align Iraq, far more likely than Turkey.

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As for DOWing at the start an early entry exposes your fleet but is conuteracted by allowing Germanty to send you much needed resources. Is very hard to programme as depends entirley on risk and reward, not forgetting USE entry chits. As always best to be aggressive in 1940 when the average is at it's lowest.

Once the Allies have Gib back then it's time to defend Sardina and Malta if you have it and to have pletny of Ftr' and Nav to contest the Italian coast.

regards

Phil

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ORIGINAL: petracelli

Italy to be able to survive especially if the Allies are going to come after her first if the med is not closed needs Nav and Ftr's to survive. It is all vey well saying it should commit a large number of air untis to Russia but if the Allies have Gib then you can expect Sardina to be under threat very early indeed.

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To able to avoid this situation then Italy needs' to build Nav and it needs them sooner rather than later closley follwed by Ftr's.

If the Germans have gone for a 41 Barb they should be requesting the long range FW 190's to protect the Med sea zones.

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If Germany goes after Gib then all the Nav come sin very useful in clearing the Brits out of Cape St Vincent and then the Bay.

With Gib in Axis hands Italy can then turn it's little eyes on the middle east and looking to align Iraq, far more likely than Turkey.

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As for DOWing at the start an early entry exposes your fleet but is conuteracted by allowing Germanty to send you much needed resources. Is very hard to programme as depends entirley on risk and reward, not forgetting USE entry chits. As always best to be aggressive in 1940 when the average is at it's lowest.