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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy

 
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/14/2007 10:30:26 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

When Italy is played by an individual it is highly likely that that player will pursue their own goals but otherwise perhaps it is better that Italy works to maximize victory for the Axis. Just something to think about.

Yes, but not to the point of being a puppet of Germany and having Germany decide its builts and action choices and its moves. Germany can influence its built and action choices and actual moves, but Italy decides in the end.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 151
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/14/2007 10:30:59 AM   
dale1066


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/23/2007
Status: offline 		Could Italo-German cooperation be done on a quid pro quo basis ?

Say I'll DOW on France when you want me to inreturn for a HQ and ARM in africa once france has vichied
or
Two nav for to be utilized in the med at my discretion for three italian subs to be pushed into the atlantic

any number of these sorts or deals can be preplanned/propositioned on the fly if fitting in with current strategy


(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 152
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/14/2007 12:23:13 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:


But how do we know that would be the case again? We're not replaying WW2. The circumstances in every MWiF game will differ and perhaps the politics will too. Quite possibly not for various cultural and ideological reasons (as you mentioned) but I think it should be as open as possible.

When Italy is played by an individual it is highly likely that that player will pursue their own goals but otherwise perhaps it is better that Italy works to maximize victory for the Axis. Just something to think about.

Cheers, Neilster



Does it make MWIF "more open", when for the AIO Borg-like team playing is implemented?

Strategy games for PC perhaps mostly are played against the AIO. Right now there is a poll in AGEOD's forum on that, again underlining this point.

Now playing against the AIO "more open" could also mean interaction within the own alliance, not only interaction with the enemy AIO. For solo players this perhaps could even (in a weak way) simulate WIF boardgame atmosphere.


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Could Italo-German cooperation be done on a quid pro quo basis ?

Say I'll DOW on France when you want me to inreturn for a HQ and ARM in africa once france has vichied
or
Two nav for to be utilized in the med at my discretion for three italian subs to be pushed into the atlantic

any number of these sorts or deals can be preplanned/propositioned on the fly if fitting in with current strategy




Yup, there are some older posts, I think even in this thread, contemplating exactly the same ideas. But AFIR unfortunately Steve put it down for MWIF product 1.

Regards

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 153
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/14/2007 9:12:48 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
quote:


But how do we know that would be the case again? We're not replaying WW2. The circumstances in every MWiF game will differ and perhaps the politics will too. Quite possibly not for various cultural and ideological reasons (as you mentioned) but I think it should be as open as possible.

When Italy is played by an individual it is highly likely that that player will pursue their own goals but otherwise perhaps it is better that Italy works to maximize victory for the Axis. Just something to think about.

Cheers, Neilster


Does it make MWIF "more open", when for the AIO Borg-like team playing is implemented?

Strategy games for PC perhaps mostly are played against the AIO. Right now there is a poll in AGEOD's forum on that, again underlining this point.

Now playing against the AIO "more open" could also mean interaction within the own alliance, not only interaction with the enemy AIO. For solo players this perhaps could even (in a weak way) simulate WIF boardgame atmosphere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Could Italo-German cooperation be done on a quid pro quo basis ?

Say I'll DOW on France when you want me to inreturn for a HQ and ARM in africa once france has vichied
or
Two nav for to be utilized in the med at my discretion for three italian subs to be pushed into the atlantic

any number of these sorts or deals can be preplanned/propositioned on the fly if fitting in with current strategy


Yup, there are some older posts, I think even in this thread, contemplating exactly the same ideas. But AFIR unfortunately Steve put it down for MWIF product 1.

Regards

There are several difficulties for building autonomous AIO within MWIF.

First, let me say that there is no single monolithic AI opponent in MWIF, but rather a separate AIO for each major power. And even within each major power's AIO there are 8 or more different DMs (Decision Makers). Coordination between DMs for a single AIO is tight, but even there I do not consider it monolithic because some decision making is made at the lower levels in the command structure (rather than a dictator at the top, micromanaging everything). Of particular importance are the separate FMs (Field Marshals) who exert their own influence over their battlefield commands.

But, even so, there is an explicit DM within each AIO that handles Foreign Relations (FR) = coordination with Allies. The FMs' primary goal is to cooperate and coordinate for the maximum benefit of the side, without particular regard for the impact on his own major power. That does not mean that the maximum can be achieved, given the structure I have imposed on how compromises are made between FMs. To repeat, there is no supreme decision maker in MWIF deciding what all the major powers on a side are going to do.

To get the level of conflict between major powers that you seem to want to have present in the game would require developing 'personalities' for each AIO. By that I mean a fundamental system for making the trade-offs between personal (for his own major pwoer) versus group goals (for the side). That balance is not easy to achieve, especially if the human opponent is able to get an insight into how to increase the enemy side's internal conflict and exploit any weakness.

Anyway, there are numerous restrictions built into the rules (RAW) regarding cooperation, so it is not like you are going to see American, Dutch, Free French, and New Zealanders helping defend Stalingrad from an assualt by Germans, Italians, and Japanese.

As for the major powers not cooperating during WWII, the British sailors that died on the sea route to Murmansk would disagree. As would the British evacuated at Dunkirk, the Germans in North Africa, Stilwell, and many other examples that I am sure you can come up with.

Cooperation by and competition between major powers on the same side is not a simple concept to implement. And personally, I do not see any driving 'need' for it. When you play the Axis side in a game of WIF over the board, do you intentionally have the Germans deny resources to the Italians so it properly reflects the selfish interests of the Germans?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 154
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 7:23:29 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
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Status: offline 		So, again, what are your favorite choices for Italy's first two builds? They only have 2 BP a turn really, as they need to save their oil, and even if you as Italy don't jump in the war in 1939 or face a CW that isn't doing a pre-emptive strike on you, you can only add 2, perhaps 3 units before you do enter the war in 1940. Patrice's idea of a Pilot first and then a new plane may be the best all-around flexible choice regardless of strategy.

Reading this thread gave me the great idea of building the extra LND-2 they have in their force pool, which I have never done before, although I do put a Pilot in the one in the Reserve Pool and use it heavily. Having two of those sounds fun - but now my first two build decisions are even harder. I also really like to get some Marine forces ASAP.

One comment above suggested not building the Italian MARines at all. I actually like to have all the Axis MARines, one of my favorite ways to 'defend' places like Oran is to have the option to counter-attack a succesful enemy landing, which might have suffered casualties and been nicely flipped. Japan is the more obvius application of that idea but it can work in the Med too.

Another comment above calls using TRS for supply 'embarrassing'. Actually that is a strong tactic; once you don't need TRS for lifting units into areas where you are on the offense it is far easier to defend overseas supply lines via TRS in the 2-4 box than a CP in the '0' box. (Assuming Limited Overseas Supply, I haven't played without that for so long I can't even recall what it is like without it).

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 155
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 2:13:18 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


There are several difficulties for building autonomous AIO within MWIF.

First, let me say that there is no single monolithic AI opponent in MWIF, but rather a separate AIO for each major power. And even within each major power's AIO there are 8 or more different DMs (Decision Makers). Coordination between DMs for a single AIO is tight, but even there I do not consider it monolithic because some decision making is made at the lower levels in the command structure (rather than a dictator at the top, micromanaging everything). Of particular importance are the separate FMs (Field Marshals) who exert their own influence over their battlefield commands.

But, even so, there is an explicit DM within each AIO that handles Foreign Relations (FR) = coordination with Allies. The FMs' primary goal is to cooperate and coordinate for the maximum benefit of the side, without particular regard for the impact on his own major power. That does not mean that the maximum can be achieved, given the structure I have imposed on how compromises are made between FMs. To repeat, there is no supreme decision maker in MWIF deciding what all the major powers on a side are going to do.

To get the level of conflict between major powers that you seem to want to have present in the game would require developing 'personalities' for each AIO. By that I mean a fundamental system for making the trade-offs between personal (for his own major pwoer) versus group goals (for the side). That balance is not easy to achieve, especially if the human opponent is able to get an insight into how to increase the enemy side's internal conflict and exploit any weakness.

Anyway, there are numerous restrictions built into the rules (RAW) regarding cooperation, so it is not like you are going to see American, Dutch, Free French, and New Zealanders helping defend Stalingrad from an assualt by Germans, Italians, and Japanese.

As for the major powers not cooperating during WWII, the British sailors that died on the sea route to Murmansk would disagree. As would the British evacuated at Dunkirk, the Germans in North Africa, Stilwell, and many other examples that I am sure you can come up with.

Cooperation by and competition between major powers on the same side is not a simple concept to implement. And personally, I do not see any driving 'need' for it. When you play the Axis side in a game of WIF over the board, do you intentionally have the Germans deny resources to the Italians so it properly reflects the selfish interests of the Germans?


Quite an eloquent reply.

I can imagine that its's easier to contemplate on WW2 than to write code for a WW2 strategic game. I'm not trying to talk you into some actually unreachable game design by "borg"-rhetoric. Just take AIO personalities as an idea for some future WIF products.

Beside Dunkirk, the mentioned examples for inter-allied coop (North Africa, Murmansk, Stillwell), well , might also be interpreted as examples for bad coop.

If I, as a German player, would deny ressources to Italy depends on the victory conditions. Perhaps a simple way to model the WW2 Alliance problems, as I see them, would be: Only single power victory conditions, but US and CW victory points are added and divided by 2. But that's just a thought, not WIF.

Regards

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 156
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 2:41:15 PM   
dale1066


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Status: offline 		Been reading the whole of this thread with interest, it got quite lively at some points I think

Just thought I'd solicit opinions on what happens if there is an early (39 - us entry) strategy of non-cooperation between Italy and German powers ie both decide on there own plans for the game. Italy just tries for the Victory cities around the med maybe not even declaring war on the allies just trying for belgrade or athens say. Eventually the allies would DOW on Italy I assume, would the CW player do this while he's alone? (assume France Vichied, US not entered, russia preparing)

While Germany, leaving Italy to her own devices, sink or swim if you like, can concentrates on russia or the CW with out needing to divert resources.

Conversely would it be possible for the AIO for both Italy and Germany to be one. (maybe this could be an option under certain game configurations?)


ps not advocating any of this, personally I agrre with Froonp I like Italy to help out Germany as much as possible to a mutually agreed plan as a bad start to the game for the axis in general means an earlier bath for Italy.


(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 157
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 2:57:58 PM   
wosung

 

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Status: offline 		Well, I was not thinking about total non-coop between Ger/It, just about conditional coop. Adolf and Benito had huge egos (just think of the chair scene in the Chaplin film).

Somtimes they were up to their own personal adventure (like Benitos' unsuccesful "parallel war" in the Balkans).

Sometimes they tried sort of coop, if the circumstances demanded it and if the bargain was high enough.

Regards

(in reply to dale1066)
Post #: 158
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 4:26:27 PM   
dale1066


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Status: offline 		Well I never thought it was a good strategy the one time I tried to use Italy to take down Yugoslavia without german aid was an appaling mess. Suspect greece might be easier added advange of aligning Yugo? but history might warn you off that ploy.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 159
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 9:29:15 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Well I never thought it was a good strategy the one time I tried to use Italy to take down Yugoslavia without german aid was an appaling mess. Suspect greece might be easier added advange of aligning Yugo? but history might warn you off that ploy.

I agree that Italy can't go it alone against Yugoslavia until 1940 at the earliest. If the Axis is going to target Yugoslavia early, the Germans need to be firmly on board with the operation. The Germans can leave an HQ, three corps, and a couple of planes after conquering Poland, or target Yugoslavia first, containing against the Poles. Yugoslavia will fall like the cardboard and paper it is, with plenty of time left to get those troops to the French line for spring.

Greece is risky if the CW or French are able to field 4 corps before you're in Athens. Yugo is easier early, but Greece will still need to be targeted eventually, even if only for Salonica. Still, if you can catch the CW napping early, a surprise invasion could pay off big. You would need to get ashore and get your attack on Athens before defensive shore bombardment, reserves and reinforcements make Greece a time consuming and costly diversion from more important objectives.

< Message edited by coregames -- 7/15/2007 10:09:42 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to dale1066)
Post #: 160
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/15/2007 9:43:55 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066
Conversely would it be possible for the AIO for both Italy and Germany to be one. (maybe this could be an option under certain game configurations?)



For the AIO, priority one should be to win the game for your side, and only then to worry about individual objective totals. At least that's the way we play over-the-board; in games where you have the most overall victory points, but your side loses the game, we still count those as losses.

Coordination early in the game should be very tight for Germany and Italy, but I don't think one AIO should handle both, unless the AIO for all powers on the computer side are handled this way. Late in the war, the US and CW cooperate as closely as the Germans and Italians do early.

< Message edited by coregames -- 7/15/2007 9:45:26 PM >

_____________________________

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Keith Henderson

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Post #: 161
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2007 9:02:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here is a fragment of the current strategic plan for the AIO for Italy.

I have gathered this advice from many different posts in this thread and I now want to distill it into a set of 'rules'. In this context what I mean by a rule is: IF .... THEN ...

The question is: "When should Italy DOW the CW and France?"

I have arranged suggestions in order of time: early to late. Presently I have a vague notion of having some probability associated with each of these entries, though that gets tricky since as time progresses in the game some of the suggestions become moot.

So,
1 - Do you have anything to add to this list?
2 - With what 'strength' do you think each one of these suggestions should be taken?
3 - What is the relationship between DOW the CW and France separately (as shown here) versus at the same time?

==========
1.1.2 Major powers on which Italy declares war (CIC)

DOWing early exposes the Italian fleet but is counteracted by allowing Germany to send needed resources. This decision has both risk and reward, not forgetting US entry chits. It’s best to be aggressive in 1940 when the average chit is at it's lowest.

1.1.2.1 CW
∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.
∙ If the CW brings Wavell out of the Middle East and puts him in France, DOW the CW and attack Egypt.
∙ Delay DOW CW until Germany is already engaged in France.
∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing. It is best if the Allies DOW Italy, especially in 1939 or early 1940 when their chits are high. Since Italy doesn’t really need her fleet if just defending Italy, be willing to lose quite a chunk of the Italian navy if it delays US entry by a turn or two.
∙ Wait for France to be nearly conquered and then DOW only CW.
∙ After France falls or in Sep/Oct 1940 at the latest.

1.1.2.2 France
∙ If the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly consider an attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. Shore bombardment can create decent odds for the attack.
∙ If there is an unguarded French or British fleet in port, consider a DOW to invade on top of that fleet; it might enable Italy to capture a lot of good units.
∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.
∙ Delay DOW France until Germany is already engaged in France.
∙ DOW France when Italy can ground strike (using surprise impulse) with 2 long range LNDs. This gives Italy a good chance to disorganize French HQs, LNDs, or FTRs behind the French front lines and lets the Germans concentrate on breaking the line with air power.
∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing.
∙ Wait for France to be nearly gone then DOW only CW. There is no point in fighting the French ships which may well be Vichy next turn. If Free France wants to help the CW in the Mediterranean later, they have to DOW Italy themselves at an US entry cost.
∙ If Germany is doing well in France, don't DOW until France falls and Italy only has to fight the CW.

1.1.2.3 USSR
∙ ?

1.1.2.4 USA
∙ Never

1.1.2.5 China
∙ Never.
===================

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 162
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2007 9:46:38 PM   
composer99


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Status: offline 		For USSR, Italy should DoW USSR if and when it is supporting Barbarossa. Otherwise, there seems little point.

If Italy is assisting immediately in Barb with air units and/or HQs, it should DoW right away.

Alternatively, if at the time of the German DoW the Italians are not ready, Italy can DoW later and during its "surprise" impulse use its air force to good effect. This will depend on whether the USSR decides to DoW Italy to prevent such an occurence, whether the US is in the war or not, whether the US wants the USSR to DoW or not.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 163
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2007 10:26:03 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

For USSR, Italy should DoW USSR if and when it is supporting Barbarossa. Otherwise, there seems little point.

If Italy is assisting immediately in Barb with air units and/or HQs, it should DoW right away.

Alternatively, if at the time of the German DoW the Italians are not ready, Italy can DoW later and during its "surprise" impulse use its air force to good effect. This will depend on whether the USSR decides to DoW Italy to prevent such an occurence, whether the US is in the war or not, whether the US wants the USSR to DoW or not.

Thanks. Though turning your post into a clear set of conditional rules will be a challenge.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 164
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2007 10:29:31 PM   
dale1066


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Status: offline 		Re ussr DOW on Italy

I seem to remeber reading elsewhere that there are advantages for the USSR to DOW on Italy early on the game. Not something I feel I'd do but is this tactic in scope of the rules? certainly seems a bit "gamey"

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 165
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2007 2:10:04 AM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		uhh, the Italians would have a pretty tough time gaining any 'surprise' effects on the USSR after the Germans are already at war with the Russians:


15. Surprise
Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse.

(in reply to dale1066)
Post #: 166
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2007 2:21:22 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

uhh, the Italians would have a pretty tough time gaining any 'surprise' effects on the USSR after the Germans are already at war with the Russians:


15. Surprise
Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse.


Good point.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 167
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2007 2:35:27 AM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I think Italy should consider it's DoW decision opportunistically. Is Malta empty? Is the weather good? Is Oran empty? See question #2 again. Italy only gets one surprise impulse and they need to make the most of it. I have never tried it but someday I want to try the sneak invasion of Morocco by risking a division on the far side of Gibraltar for an impulse, which could probably also be an interesting bait to prompt a potential Allied DoW.

Given good Allied play I like the first clear weather impulse in the North Temperate as a target, to help break into France. (And I can't see how any Allied player would put any unit but the French MTN corps in Nice, because of the Shore Bombardment totals Italy can generate). I think the best use of the Italian air is as for-sure doubled ground support factors rather than low odds ground strikes. But then I haven't played a game without LoC Vichy in a long time; with RaW Vichy I'm not as concerned about breaking into the French Riviera and probably wouldn't even try.

I think 'extracting the African units' is overrated. If the CW seems willing to launch a pre-emptive strike on Italy, sending one Italian TRS through Suez is 100% as good as sinking it for the CW via a quick DoW on the next impulse, which are even better odds than a surprise port strike that has to be deployed an impulse in advance.

But I can see little gain in waiting past M/J 40 in any case.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 168
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/27/2007 11:50:47 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I am presenting the question of on whom and when Italy show DOW again. I have restructured the choices to be easier to pass judgment upon (I think).

See if you can give a letter grade to these suggestions I have received from various forum members. A is excellent, B is very good, C is so-so, D is a bad idea - but maybe could be used rarely, and F means "never do this". If you want to add other conditions to your grade (e.g., B in good weather but F in bad weather), feel free to do so.

My goal is to build a set of rules which are based upon circumstances (here that is dominantly the game turn) and then attached probabilities to each rule. if you can provide me with letter grades, that will help a lot. I am reluctant to make all these decision exclusively on my own evaluations, because of the risk that I would be too predictable.
=============
1.1.2 Major powers on which Italy declares war (CIC)

DOWing early exposes the Italian fleet but is counterbalanced by allowing Germany to send needed resources. This decision has both risk and reward, including its effect on US entry chits. It’s best to be aggressive in 1940 when the average of the US entry chits is low.

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

∙ If the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, consider an attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. Shore bombardment can create decent odds for the attack.

∙ If there is an unguarded French or British fleet in port, consider a DOW to invade on top of that fleet; it might enable Italy to capture a lot of good units.

∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW France until Germany is heavily engaged in France.

∙ DOW France when Italy can ground strike (using the surprise impulse) with 2 long range LNDs. This gives Italy a good chance to disorganize French HQs, LNDs, or FTRs behind the French front lines and lets the Germans concentrate on breaking the line with air power.

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing.

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly gone then DOW only CW. There is no point in fighting the French ships which may well be Vichy next turn. If Free France wants to help the CW in the Mediterranean later, they have to DOW Italy themselves at an US entry cost.

∙ If Germany is doing well in France, don't DOW until France falls and Italy only has to fight the CW.

∙ DOW France only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.

1.1.2.2 CW
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

∙ If the CW brings Wavell out of the Middle East and puts him in France, DOW the CW and attack Egypt.

∙ If the Commonwealth heavily commits land forces to defending France (2-3 land units + 3-4 air units on the continent), take a hard look at Gibraltar, Malta, and Suez. The CW’s got to be weak somewhere and if Italy can seize one of those points, then an early DOW could be worth the risk.

∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW CW until Germany is already engaged in France.

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing. It is best if the Allies DOW Italy, especially in 1939 or early 1940 when their chits are high. Since Italy doesn’t really need her fleet if just defending Italy, be willing to lose quite a chunk of the Italian navy if it delays US entry by a turn or two.

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly conquered and then DOW only CW.

1940 (Sep/Oct)
∙ After France falls or in Sep/Oct 1940 at the latest.

∙ DOW CW and France on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

1.1.2.3 USSR
∙ DOW USSR only if Italy is supporting Barbarossa.

∙ If Italy is providing assistance at the start of Barbarossa (e.g., with air units and/or HQs), it should DOW the USSR the same time that Germany does.

∙ Because both of the Italy versus USSR DOWs affect US Entry if the US is not yet in the war, the effect of the DOW on US Entry requires due consideration.

1.1.2.4 USA
∙ Never

1.1.2.5 China
∙ Never.
==================

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 169
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/29/2007 11:05:20 PM   
mldtchdog

 

Posts: 61
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline 		I haven’t played Italy in a long time – heck it’s been along time since I’ve played period but here is my view.

quote:

1.1.2 Major powers on which Italy declares war (CIC)

DOWing early exposes the Italian fleet but is counterbalanced by allowing Germany to send needed resources. This decision has both risk and reward, including its effect on US entry chits. It’s best to be aggressive in 1940 when the average of the US entry chits is low.

Grade A –also has the added benefit of increasing Italy’s production multiplier earlier.

quote:

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

Grade B – fair weather ; D –in bad; A- if convoy line is vulnerable. A devastating strike on convoy’s can do more to cripple the Brits than loosing a carrier.

quote:

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, consider an attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. Shore bombardment can create decent odds for the attack.

Grade C – my experience is that in most cases it can turn into a minor bloodbath for little gain. There is the odd success though. I witnessed, err, experienced the Italian’s entering Paris from the south.

quote:

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If there is an unguarded French or British fleet in port, consider a DOW to invade on top of that fleet; it might enable Italy to capture a lot of good units.

Grade A –major port; B/C- minor with capitol ships or AMPH/TRS

quote:

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb) ∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

Grade B/C – I know it’s a question of the quality of the air forces but how much can Germany really afford to give away?

quote:

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW France until Germany is heavily engaged in France.

∙ DOW France when Italy can ground strike (using the surprise impulse) with 2 long range LNDs. This gives Italy a good chance to disorganize French HQs, LNDs, or FTRs behind the French front lines and lets the Germans concentrate on breaking the line with air power.

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing.

Grade B – the forces in Africa are nice but too much effort shouldn’t be put into retrieving them

quote:

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ DOW France only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.

Grade D – why waste surprise when you know those carriers are coming for you.

quote:

1.1.2.2 CW
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW brings Wavell out of the Middle East and puts him in France, DOW the CW and attack Egypt.

∙ If the Commonwealth heavily commits land forces to defending France (2-3 land units + 3-4 air units on the continent), take a hard look at Gibraltar, Malta, and Suez. The CW’s got to be weak somewhere and if Italy can seize one of those points, then an early DOW could be worth the risk.

Grade A – especially if Gibraltar is left very vulnerable.

quote:

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW CW until Germany is already engaged in France.

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing. It is best if the Allies DOW Italy, especially in 1939 or early 1940 when their chits are high. Since Italy doesn’t really need her fleet if just defending Italy, be willing to lose quite a chunk of the Italian navy if it delays US entry by a turn or two.

Grade C


quote:

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly conquered and then DOW only CW.

1940 (Sep/Oct)
∙ After France falls or in Sep/Oct 1940 at the latest.

Grade A – Italy has to be careful not to stir too many pots at once. Not enough resources so letting Germany do most of the destroying of France makes sense. Italy should defiantly be in the war by late 1940 tho.
 
quote:

1.1.2.3 USSR
∙ DOW USSR only if Italy is supporting Barbarossa.

Grade A if Italy is; E if not
 
quote:

1.1.2.4 USA
∙ Never

Grade A – never do it
 
quote:

1.1.2.5 China
∙ Never.

Grade A –never do it
 
Minors?
Yugoslavia – D
Greece – D if Britain is in a position to help
             B if there is little likely hood of immediate help

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 170
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/29/2007 11:14:17 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Thanks, that helps a lot. You added a few new ideas there too.

I don't think it's possible for Italy to DOW and invade (say Marseille) even if it is empty - unless the amphibous rule is not being used. Without marines or AMPHs, the divisions are just too weak, even with bombardment and air support.

And if not using th eAmphibious rule, then the TRS have to be stacked together and are very vuilnerable in port.

Or did I miss something?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mldtchdog)
Post #: 171
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/29/2007 11:28:27 PM   
mldtchdog

 

Posts: 61
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline 		As I said its been a long time since I've played and I didn't really calculate any attack odds when I was thinking about this.

I never even thought about what if when not playing with the amhibious rules.

Agree that the TRS should never/very rearly be stacked together prior to being at war and then only if there is decent aircover to protect them.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 172
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/30/2007 8:14:01 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Aircover doesn't matter during the surprise impulse if the CW declares war on Italy.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to mldtchdog)
Post #: 173
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/30/2007 10:14:51 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		My try here. Not sure to have understood the overall layout as questions seem redundant. Maybe questions should have been clearly labelled & numbered, and comments be set aside ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
See if you can give a letter grade to these suggestions I have received from various forum members. A is excellent, B is very good, C is so-so, D is a bad idea - but maybe could be used rarely, and F means "never do this". If you want to add other conditions to your grade (e.g., B in good weather but F in bad weather), feel free to do so.

quote:

1.1.2 Major powers on which Italy declares war (CIC)

DOWing early exposes the Italian fleet but is counterbalanced by allowing Germany to send needed resources. This decision has both risk and reward, including its effect on US entry chits. It’s best to be aggressive in 1940 when the average of the US entry chits is low.

DOWing early for Italy : Grade A if a Gibraltar & close the med strat are underway. Grade D if a Barb is. Rationale is that the later Italy is in the war, the later will it be under CW pressure.

quote:

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

Grade D. One shot gains for lots of trouble and increased US Entry.

quote:

∙ If the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, consider an attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. Shore bombardment can create decent odds for the attack.

Grade B.

quote:

∙ If there is an unguarded French or British fleet in port, consider a DOW to invade on top of that fleet; it might enable Italy to capture a lot of good units.

Grade C. Italian invasions are feeble.

quote:

∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

Too early (before Germany enters France -- in case of a Barb) : Grade D. DoWing early is not allowing for a strong air force, a strong sub force, etc... Dowing early is a matter of turns, so the extra BP are not that many, especially because Germany does not have lots of extra RP early on.

quote:

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW France until Germany is heavily engaged in France.

Grade A.

quote:

∙ DOW France when Italy can ground strike (using the surprise impulse) with 2 long range LNDs. This gives Italy a good chance to disorganize French HQs, LNDs, or FTRs behind the French front lines and lets the Germans concentrate on breaking the line with air power.

Grade A.

quote:

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing.

Grade A.

quote:

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly gone then DOW only CW. There is no point in fighting the French ships which may well be Vichy next turn. If Free France wants to help the CW in the Mediterranean later, they have to DOW Italy themselves at an US entry cost.

Grade C.

quote:

∙ If Germany is doing well in France, don't DOW until France falls and Italy only has to fight the CW.

Grade C.

quote:

∙ DOW France only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.

Grade C.

quote:

1.1.2.2 CW
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships..

Grade D. One shot gains for lots of trouble and increased US Entry.

quote:

∙ If the CW brings Wavell out of the Middle East and puts him in France, DOW the CW and attack Egypt.

Grade A.

quote:

∙ If the Commonwealth heavily commits land forces to defending France (2-3 land units + 3-4 air units on the continent), take a hard look at Gibraltar, Malta, and Suez. The CW’s got to be weak somewhere and if Italy can seize one of those points, then an early DOW could be worth the risk.

Grade A.

quote:

∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east..

Too early (before Germany enters France -- in case of a Barb) : Grade D. DoWing early is not allowing for a strong air force, a strong sub force, etc... Dowing early is a matter of turns, so the extra BP are not that many, especially because Germany does not have lots of extra RP early on. In case of a Close the MEd strategy, DoWing early is Grade B.

quote:

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW CW until Germany is already engaged in France.

Grade C

quote:

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing. It is best if the Allies DOW Italy, especially in 1939 or early 1940 when their chits are high. Since Italy doesn’t really need her fleet if just defending Italy, be willing to lose quite a chunk of the Italian navy if it delays US entry by a turn or two.

Grade B

quote:

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly conquered and then DOW only CW.

Grade D. What's the interest ? If CW is DoWed, Italy should try to attack the CW while it is occupied elsewhere.

quote:

1940 (Sep/Oct)
∙ After France falls or in Sep/Oct 1940 at the latest.

Grade D. Same comment. If Italy have waited until that late, better let the brits DoW. But better hide the fleet too, and disperse the CP & TRS.

quote:

∙ DOW CW and France on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

Grade D

quote:

1.1.2.3 USSR
∙ DOW USSR only if Italy is supporting Barbarossa.

Grade A. Italy SHOULD support Barbarossa in any way that does not make Italy's Home Country weak and brittle.

quote:

∙ If Italy is providing assistance at the start of Barbarossa (e.g., with air units and/or HQs), it should DOW the USSR the same time that Germany does.

Grade A.

quote:

∙ Because both of the Italy versus USSR DOWs affect US Entry if the US is not yet in the war, the effect of the DOW on US Entry requires due consideration.

1.1.2.4 USA
∙ Never

Grade B if the USA are active and not yet at war with Germany & Italy, but it is clear that the US is up for a devastating suprise Impulse against Italy in the Med.

quote:



1.1.2.5 China
∙ Never.

Grade F


< Message edited by Froonp -- 7/30/2007 10:18:03 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 174
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/30/2007 11:07:37 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		It is better for Italy (and Germany) to DoW USA if they can get off a good surprise impulse than let the USA get a good surprise impulse (strat bombing, maybe an invasion somewhere, supporting the CW) against them. So DoWing the US is Grade D/F most of the time, Grade B/A when they can sink a couple of AMPH or something.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 175
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/30/2007 11:35:46 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Patrice & Christopher,

Thank you for your comments.

I have all these suggestions which appeared in this thread over the course of months, some received a lot of replaies and were discussed in detail. Others received little comment. In merging them into one system of decision making, I appreciate having other minds look at them critcially (or approvingly).

Yes, there is redundancy in the posed options. That's because the DOW on France and the CW are sometimes concurrent and sometimes separate. I decided to present the choices separately for France & the CW. In so doing, to cover all the possibilities, I put items down twice.

I would still ilke to hear from others, with their likes and dislikes for Italy's DOWs. But I now have a better sense of what weights/probablities to use.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 176
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 7:46:16 AM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline 		A different view on italy:

Primary Strategic Objective: Attempt U.S. entry actions in line with german objectives. If germany is delaying die rolls until 1940 to reduce the strength of the U.S. entry then Italy should dovetail with that unless one of a few significant tactical objectives are imminent.\

Strategic Objective 1: HQ, ATR, Medium bomber support for Barbarossa, force lend lease of german Militia by 1941.
Strategic Objective 2: Naval air war with britain for control of the Med, a few bombers for Barbarossa, Ftr & Land units for defense of Italy.
Strategic Objective 3: Naval air & ship building war with britain (dovetails with German Sealion), build Mar, attempt conquest of Malta, Greece, Gibralter, Egypt with German support. Build Amph/trs every other turn. Attempt to put Gibralter OOS, flipped & invade. Same Objectives if Germany invades Spain, except with expanded objectives if Sealion is in progress. Push hard with subs & attempt to lure brits into surface combat as units are moving into britain. If british ignore italy, put brits OOS & take as many med countries as possible.

Tactical Objectives:

1) If fully loaded CW CV with more than 6 air-to-sea factors appear in a seabox of '3' or higher off the coast of 75% of the whole italian fleet, consider DOW to prevent surprize impulse attack of the fleet. The reaction can't be certain so give it a percentage. If so base fighters near the fleet to intercept a port attack the impulse after DOW because large fleets in port should always have air cover. An attack with 6 CVP against 1 ftr often sees many aircraft clearing through. Ignore german complaints on this issue.

2) If Malta, Gibralter are ungarrisoned, consider attack with italian div (which should always be with a LS operationally). Give it a 90% chance of DOW to take advantage of the surprize impulse. If already at war and the above said ports are empty but have no units, attempt 4LS stab in the dark to take the port. The strategic value is much higher than the value of the units. Occasionally you win these close combats. An attempt at providing supply should be attempted as well (1 CP).

3) Fortify Tobruk or Tripoli towards the east, always in a coastal hex, & garrison the forts.

Secondary targets should include all countries at war with, vichy countries, greece.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 177
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 11:49:08 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
A different view on italy:

Primary Strategic Objective: Attempt U.S. entry actions in line with german objectives. If germany is delaying die rolls until 1940 to reduce the strength of the U.S. entry then Italy should dovetail with that unless one of a few significant tactical objectives are imminent.\

Strategic Objective 1: HQ, ATR, Medium bomber support for Barbarossa, force lend lease of german Militia by 1941.
Strategic Objective 2: Naval air war with britain for control of the Med, a few bombers for Barbarossa, Ftr & Land units for defense of Italy.
Strategic Objective 3: Naval air & ship building war with britain (dovetails with German Sealion), build Mar, attempt conquest of Malta, Greece, Gibralter, Egypt with German support. Build Amph/trs every other turn. Attempt to put Gibralter OOS, flipped & invade. Same Objectives if Germany invades Spain, except with expanded objectives if Sealion is in progress. Push hard with subs & attempt to lure brits into surface combat as units are moving into britain. If british ignore italy, put brits OOS & take as many med countries as possible.

Tactical Objectives:

1) If fully loaded CW CV with more than 6 air-to-sea factors appear in a seabox of '3' or higher off the coast of 75% of the whole italian fleet, consider DOW to prevent surprize impulse attack of the fleet. The reaction can't be certain so give it a percentage. If so base fighters near the fleet to intercept a port attack the impulse after DOW because large fleets in port should always have air cover. An attack with 6 CVP against 1 ftr often sees many aircraft clearing through. Ignore german complaints on this issue.

2) If Malta, Gibralter are ungarrisoned, consider attack with italian div (which should always be with a LS operationally). Give it a 90% chance of DOW to take advantage of the surprize impulse. If already at war and the above said ports are empty but have no units, attempt 4LS stab in the dark to take the port. The strategic value is much higher than the value of the units. Occasionally you win these close combats. An attempt at providing supply should be attempted as well (1 CP).

3) Fortify Tobruk or Tripoli towards the east, always in a coastal hex, & garrison the forts.

Secondary targets should include all countries at war with, vichy countries, greece.

Thanks. The details of the tactical stuff are especially nice.

On the strategic plans for Italy I have the following typed in already. I have more notes but they have so many annotated changes from my last read-through I won't show them here. Basically, for each German choice I have a fixed (or possible range) of Italian decisions/choices. Once I get that cleanly edited, I want to put Scandinavia and the Balkans into the German Strategic Plans so I can figure out how Italy fits into them. [For Scandinavia, probably no effect on Italy, but German planning for the Balkans is crucial information for Italy.]

================
1.1.7.1 Strategic plans
Italian strategic planning is totally dependent on which strategic plan Germany has chosen. Specifically, Italy needs to plan its actions according to how Germany is going to deal with France, the USSR, the United Kingdom, and the Mediterranean. Each German strategic plan has one choice from each of the following components.

∙ 1939 or 1940 Poland

∙ 1939 France and Lowlands: if France doesn't fall early, the Axis is in trouble.
∙ 1940 France and Lowlands (possibly Lowlands in 1939)
∙ France sitzkrieg: Germany takes a purely defensive position against France, which becomes a fearsome opponent in 1943-1945.

∙ 1940 or 1941 Barbarossa with massive Italian support (kitchen sink)
∙ 1941 Barbarossa
∙ 1942 Barbarossa: with the goal of complete conquest.
∙ 1942 Barbarossa: with the objective of pushing the Reds as far as possible, and destroying as much of the Red Army as possible to hamper its return in 1943/1944.
∙ USSR sitzkrieg

∙ 1940 - 1941, or 1941 Spain
∙ 1940 - 1941, or 1941 Gibraltar
∙ 1940 - 1941 Close the Mediterranean; this requires taking and holding both Gibraltar and Suez; the objective is to secure Italy and have the Italian fleet help against the UK.
∙ 1941 Close the Mediterranean: this requires taking and holding both Gibraltar and Suez.
∙ 1941 North Africa, Greece, and Malta: led by the Italians with some German support.
∙ No Mediterranean campaign

∙ 1939+ United Kingdom: submarine and strategic bombing campaigns - possibly very limited campaigns
∙ 1942 Sealion: with (or without) the goal of complete conquest.
∙ 1942 Sealion: with the objective of knocking out the UK, or damaging her so badly that it is less efficient in the Allied team for the Allied come back (conquering the southern plains up to Manchester).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 178
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 12:50:42 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline



quote:

1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.
B

quote:

∙ If the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, consider an attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. Shore bombardment can create decent odds for the attack.
A-C depending on how poorly the french have garrisioned

quote:

∙ If there is an unguarded French or British fleet in port, consider a DOW to invade on top of that fleet; it might enable Italy to capture a lot of good units.

A- if that port is Malta or other objective otherwise C
quote:

∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

C

1940 (Mar/Apr)
quote:

∙ Delay DOW France until Germany is heavily engaged in France.

B

quote:

∙ DOW France when Italy can ground strike (using the surprise impulse) with 2 long range LNDs. This gives Italy a good chance to disorganize French HQs, LNDs, or FTRs behind the French front lines and lets the Germans concentrate on breaking the line with air power.

B
quote:

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing.

B
quote:

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly gone then DOW only CW. There is no point in fighting the French ships which may well be Vichy next turn. If Free France wants to help the CW in the Mediterranean later, they have to DOW Italy themselves at an US entry cost.
C
quote:

∙ If Germany is doing well in France, don't DOW until France falls and Italy only has to fight the CW.
B
quote:

∙ DOW France only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.
D
quote:

∙1.1.2.2 CW
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

Depending on the potential damage to italian ships this can range from an A to a D, a consideration is to spread the fleet and TRS in impulse 1 and 3 to prevent an effective portstrike if that is not possible a dow can be preferable especially if you can hit the allied convoys during the suprise
quote:

∙ If the CW brings Wavell out of the Middle East and puts him in France, DOW the CW and attack Egypt.

A-B
quote:

∙ If the Commonwealth heavily commits land forces to defending France (2-3 land units + 3-4 air units on the continent), take a hard look at Gibraltar, Malta, and Suez. The CW’s got to be weak somewhere and if Italy can seize one of those points, then an early DOW could be worth the risk.

A for gibraltar B for Malta and Suez.
quote:

∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

C
quote:

1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW CW until Germany is already engaged in France.

B
quote:

∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing. It is best if the Allies DOW Italy, especially in 1939 or early 1940 when their chits are high. Since Italy doesn’t really need her fleet if just defending Italy, be willing to lose quite a chunk of the Italian navy if it delays US entry by a turn or two.

not sure I understand the question but I think that if you can get the allies to dow that is prefereable.
quote:

1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly conquered and then DOW only CW.

C
quote:

1940 (Sep/Oct)
∙ After France falls or in Sep/Oct 1940 at the latest.

C
quote:

∙ DOW CW and France on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

C
quote:

1.1.2.3 USSR
∙ DOW USSR only if Italy is supporting Barbarossa.

A
quote:

∙ If Italy is providing assistance at the start of Barbarossa (e.g., with air units and/or HQs), it should DOW the USSR the same time that Germany does.

A Or if she can break the pact by groundstriking a few russians who tries to stuff the border the impulse before the germans down

quote:

1.1.2.4 USA
∙ Never

D DOW when it is appearant that US will get into the war anyhow to avoid being hit by a suprise impulse

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 179
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 5:44:44 PM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline 		Also strategically, additional cases:

1) to DOW France/CW to join the war & begin lend lease, in this case sending 1-2 ftr's & 1 Land 3 & HQ Arm can tip the balance of airpower in France and turn a 1:1 ratio to 1.5:1.
2) to attempt to remain out of the war until conquest of France.  This usually includes strategic plan to build units for barbarossa or superiority in the med, or both poorly and a real garrison of Libya.  This can delay US entry; makes the CW stronger, but tends to make Italy stronger as well for war in '40 when the French problem dissapears.  It is particularly nice to not lose a singe italian ship to the french and is a strategic benefit as some excellent italian units will be ready for the summer of '40.
3) attempt to force CW to declare war on Italy & stay out of the war for US entry purposes.

Another consideration: If Italy is only at war with one major power which is about to be conquered, another DOW is neccessary to keep Italy at war.  Otherwise Italy may become nuetral, and potentially suffer some unpleasant side effects.  It's a rare occurence, but must be considered.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 180
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