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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 8:43:59 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Nicholas & Zorachus99,

Very helpful.

The longer I puzzle over this, the stronger my understanding of what Italy's strategic options are and how various tactical elements play a role in the decision making. Slowly I am coming around to the opinion that I am reaching a full understanding of what Itlay can and should do, with the latter in probabilisitic terms.

France was pretty easy to lay out strategic plans for, and so was China. Neither of them has many opportunities for large deviations.

Italy has a wide range of things it can select from, strategically, operationally, and tactically. It has both offensive and defensive decisions that require very serious consideration and its choices can dramatically influence how the war plays out (pun intended).

Right now I am pressing to get version 4 out to the beta testers this week. When I get a chance I'll consolidate the different ratings that have been posted and show you how I see them being converted into probabilities.

My most recent thinking on probabilities is to keep the ones the AIO uses unknown to the players, but let the players override them with their own choices. This should meet the request several forum members have made for restricting the AIO choices to historical results or to see how dangerous it is to defend against SeaLion, and the like.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 181
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 9:25:26 PM   
Zorachus99


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Sounds like a bit of feature creep.  Perhaps simply the option to force the AI to follow historical objectives chosen at the beginning of the scenario? 

As an aside, AIO decision making sounds very difficult when for the Japanese preparing for Pearl/Phillipines/Guam/Rabaul/Singapore/Burma

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 182
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 10:59:43 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Sounds like a bit of feature creep.  Perhaps simply the option to force the AI to follow historical objectives chosen at the beginning of the scenario? 

As an aside, AIO decision making sounds very difficult when for the Japanese preparing for Pearl/Phillipines/Guam/Rabaul/Singapore/Burma

Yes, perhaps feature creep. On the other hand, throwing a bone to players who envision writing their own AIO scripts for MWIF, might give them something to gnaw on for a while - instead of my leg.

And since this is still the design stage for the AIO storage and execution of strategic plans, it is not hard to do. Of course, I am limiting this to just changing some probability numbers. Anything more elaborate could easily be very time consuming.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 183
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 11:02:46 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Nicholas & Zorachus99,

Very helpful.

The longer I puzzle over this, the stronger my understanding of what Italy's strategic options are and how various tactical elements play a role in the decision making. Slowly I am coming around to the opinion that I am reaching a full understanding of what Itlay can and should do, with the latter in probabilisitic terms.

France was pretty easy to lay out strategic plans for, and so was China. Neither of them has many opportunities for large deviations.

Italy has a wide range of things it can select from, strategically, operationally, and tactically. It has both offensive and defensive decisions that require very serious consideration and its choices can dramatically influence how the war plays out (pun intended).

Right now I am pressing to get version 4 out to the beta testers this week. When I get a chance I'll consolidate the different ratings that have been posted and show you how I see them being converted into probabilities.

My most recent thinking on probabilities is to keep the ones the AIO uses unknown to the players, but let the players override them with their own choices. This should meet the request several forum members have made for restricting the AIO choices to historical results or to see how dangerous it is to defend against SeaLion, and the like.


I think it would be extremely fun (and almost necessary for beta testing) to be able to ramp up SeaLion to 90% ....

_____________________________


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 184
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 11:50:49 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
My most recent thinking on probabilities is to keep the ones the AIO uses unknown to the players, but let the players override them with their own choices. This should meet the request several forum members have made for restricting the AIO choices to historical results or to see how dangerous it is to defend against SeaLion, and the like.

I love that !!!!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 185
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/31/2007 11:51:45 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
Another consideration: If Italy is only at war with one major power which is about to be conquered, another DOW is neccessary to keep Italy at war.  Otherwise Italy may become nuetral, and potentially suffer some unpleasant side effects.  It's a rare occurence, but must be considered.

Extremely good point Zorachus !

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 186
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/1/2007 12:05:16 AM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
My most recent thinking on probabilities is to keep the ones the AIO uses unknown to the players, but let the players override them with their own choices. This should meet the request several forum members have made for restricting the AIO choices to historical results or to see how dangerous it is to defend against SeaLion, and the like.

I love that !!!!


I like that too!

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 187
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/4/2007 2:35:59 PM   
npilgaard

 

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quote:


ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am presenting the question of on whom and when Italy show DOW again. I have restructured the choices to be easier to pass judgment upon (I think).
See if you can give a letter grade to these suggestions I have received from various forum members.

Good idea! Looks like a good way to get some structured replies, and to get the different options placed in a 'probability-hierachy'

Imho, the grades varies depending on the overall strategic plan for the Axis.
I have divided in some overall strategic objectives:
1: First priority: put pressure on CW early, maybe for an upcoming Sea Lion, trying to close the Med, or at least spending '41 to hurt CW as much as possible.
2: "Normal" action against CW. I.e. gain control of the Med, but also pursue other goals, such as helping in France, taking Middle East, or preparing for air support in Barbarossa.
3: The Med/CW relatively low priority - focus on helping Germany on land. Fall of France must not be delayed, and then head for Barbarossa. Not a very nice (or common) option for Italy, but if the Axis tries to go all-out on breaking USSR and win the game 'directly' then any extra Italian ac will help...

quote:


1.1.2.1 France
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW sets up strongly at sea in the Mediterranean, DOW France and CW on Impulse 3 and hit the CW at sea. Unless CW is lucky, it will lose a carrier and some damaged ships.

1: B (if fall of France is no hurry consider DoW only CW to avoid France fleet), 2: C, 3: D

quote:


∙ If the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, consider an attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. Shore bombardment can create decent odds for the attack.

1: D, 2: C, 3: A

quote:


∙ If there is an unguarded French or British fleet in port, consider a DOW to invade on top of that fleet; it might enable Italy to capture a lot of good units.

1: B (or A if large fleet), 2: C, 3: D

quote:


∙ Enter the war early, and have Germany spend massively on LL to Italy. This allows for both a strong air force for dominating sea areas, a strong sub force, and by the time of Barbarossa, a significant air force that can deploy east.

1: A (pressure on CW early), 2: B, 3: B

quote:


1940 (Mar/Apr)
∙ Delay DOW France until Germany is heavily engaged in France.

1: B (await CW to send (lots of) troops to France before DoW, thus forcing CW to commit and be occupied outside the Med. Germany could then go for killing CW units if fall of France is not in a hurry), 2: C (saves It fleet, but costs extra Us entry), 3: D

quote:


∙ DOW France when Italy can ground strike (using the surprise impulse) with 2 long range LNDs. This gives Italy a good chance to disorganize French HQs, LNDs, or FTRs behind the French front lines and lets the Germans concentrate on breaking the line with air power.

1: C, 2: B, 3: A

quote:


∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing.

1: C, 2: C, 3: B (trying to extract forces is a gamble - can be used to force early CW DoW, though)

quote:


1940 (May/Jun)
∙ Wait for France to be nearly gone then DOW only CW. There is no point in fighting the French ships which may well be Vichy next turn. If Free France wants to help the CW in the Mediterranean later, they have to DOW Italy themselves at an US entry cost.

1: D, 2: C (mainly just to make things somewhat unpredictable), 3: D

quote:


∙ If Germany is doing well in France, don't DOW until France falls and Italy only has to fight the CW.

1: D, 2: C, 3: D - (much like the above, but in case Germany is doing well it looks somewhat more interesting to chose this option)

quote:


∙ DOW France only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.

1: D, 2: C, 3: A-B

quote:


1.1.2.2 CW
1939, 1940 (Jan/Feb)
∙ If the CW brings Wavell out of the Middle East and puts him in France, DOW the CW and attack Egypt.

1: A, 2: C, 3: E

quote:


∙ If the Commonwealth heavily commits land forces to defending France (2-3 land units + 3-4 air units on the continent), take a hard look at Gibraltar, Malta, and Suez. The CW’s got to be weak somewhere and if Italy can seize one of those points, then an early DOW could be worth the risk.

1: A, 2: B, 3: D

quote:


∙ DOW in early 1940. Italy does need the LL, but it is also nice to have time to extract the African forces before DOWing. It is best if the Allies DOW Italy, especially in 1939 or early 1940 when their chits are high. Since Italy doesn’t really need her fleet if just defending Italy, be willing to lose quite a chunk of the Italian navy if it delays US entry by a turn or two.

1: D (but don't give away the navy), 2: C (but if Italy has objectives in N.Africa or Middle East, don't give away the navy), 3: B

quote:


1.1.2.3 USSR
∙ DOW USSR only if Italy is supporting Barbarossa.

1,2,3: A

quote:


∙ If Italy is providing assistance at the start of Barbarossa (e.g., with air units and/or HQs), it should DOW the USSR the same time that Germany does.

1,2,3: A

quote:


1.1.2.4 USA
∙ Never

1.1.2.5 China
∙ Never.

1,2,3: A


_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 188
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/4/2007 10:03:23 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Nikolaj,

Thanks.

Your thinking on how to implement this is clearly brilliant, since it matches mine.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 189
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/10/2007 5:29:56 PM   
npilgaard

 

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Lol

Well, someone told me "Your thinking on how to implement this is clearly brilliant, since it matches mine", and I guess, I could say the same to you then...

_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 190
Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for good It... - 2/23/2008 11:46:16 PM   
peskpesk


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Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for good Italian AI?

So, it’s the end of July/August 1940. Germany has just captured Paris, and Vichied France. Every Axis power should be celebrating, but you just got a telegram from Adolph saying: ”Attack on Spain cancelled due to lack of time. Stop. Planning for Barbarossa 1941. Stop. *Minimum support available for North Africa. Stop.” You go pale, fearing that your worst nightmare will come true: The US has decided on a Europe first strategy, with top priority to hit the soft underbelly, Italy. Commonwealth and United States will be ready to invade Italy in summer 1942 and there are no Germans in sight! Don’t give in to panic, take a deep breath and analyse the situation from the beginning.

Let's face the bitter facts
Italy is the most vulnerable major power, aside from France. The problems are due to
• The strategic position.
• The poor army.
• The easy surrender (Italy is the only major power who will surrender without losing all her factories).
• The inability to cope with attrition.

Lets look at the problems one at a time

War of attrition
The problem with a war of attrition is that Italy can’t suffer heavy losses. Once a war of attrition begin, it’s hard for Italy to replace the losses due to the inferior production. What can you do about it then? Keep losses to a minimum. The key is to make Germany to take losses in a joint attack. Or if not possible, to compensate any Italian losses with extra resources apart from the normal resources sent to Italy. The hard part is to convince Germany of this incontrovertible fact. How should you do it? Allure him with promises of keeping the CW occupied for long time. Unable to perform any real operations against German interest while you are alive and kicking.

Easy surrender
We bit in the sour apple and accept that Italy surrenders when any 3 of these are true during the Peace step:
1) The Allies control Rome.
2) The Allies control Tripoli.
3) The Allies country any printed factory hex in Italy, apart from Rome.
4) The Allied Garrison value in Italy and Sicily is greater than the Italian garrison value there.
We can’t do anything about the above (except write to Harry Roland and complain), but there is a trick to play out regarding the garrison values. You should remember that only units out of enemy ZOC counts a garrison and by putting all Italian units away from the front-line and replacing them with German units (Yea, you need them badly). You do not only increase your own garrison value but you also decrease the Allied value!

The poor army.
Well, it's true. Looking just on raw fighting strength, supply and mobility the army is practically worthless.
It's has only slight more power than the Chinese.
But even a blind chicken some times find a corn. The special troops of the Italian army gets to see most of the world; Join the 1 Italian Infantry division and see all corners of the Med from SCS, fly with Fologre to Malt, England and the Russian plains, see the Alps, Scandinavia and the Spanish mountains with Alpini corps. No, to the defence the army is mostly canon food. But badly needed such. The real defence is from
Regina Aeronautica. Regina Aeronautica is a force to be recon with. Many Common Wealth players just ignores the power out of ignorance of what can happen. I have seen it. Uncareful British Taskforce have almost disappeared from the map after meeting the NAVs, protected by FTR in the two box.
Mark my words "The secret to success with the Italy is the airforces, the special operations and support from German troops".

German troops
Many players wonder what the minimum support the Germany should give to Italy. I say that the minimum support should be;
• One bomber, preferably a NAV or a good TAC,
• A long range fighter.
• 3 infantry units (one of them with print)
• The Rommel or von Bock HQ. The HQ is important as it allows Germany to enter Viche France territories under the foreign guest HQ rule.

What do the Germans receive as a compensation for these, so of you might wonder? Lots! As always you are a pain in the but for Commonwealth. And with these you will keep him of Germans back for years. And then we have the Italian support to Germany. This is the tricky part, you don’t have so many thing to lend out to Germany, but there are some things that Wermacht might find use full. Remember to barging with German about what you will recive if you send him support.
• During the first two turns of operation Barbarosa will Regina Aeronautica make a important contribution to the attack, since Luftwaffe will have trouble keeping up with the front-line. TAC and Fighter will be needed. Personally I don’t send more than three units, because that is so many air missions Italy has on a Combined.
• Air cover for Germans Factories. As you have limited use for you 3 range fighters these can be a good way to find use for them.
• An Italian HQ in France to keep the submarine bases and garrisons in supply.
• Italian garrisons in occupied countries to keep the partisans at the bay.
• An Italian HQ in Russia to help keep everything in supply when the front expands.
• Italian FTR/NAV to protect the Baltic sea area from the annoying CW Sunderland or irritating Russian navy/subs which try to raid, German convoys.
• With 2D10 option. Italian Armor and Mech are a fine addition to Wermacht forces in Russia.

Strategic problem
Italy’s strategic location problem comes with the huge coastline, which needs to be defended. And if that is not enough you have the island of Sicily to defend also. All together forty-seven hexes! Along the cost there is twelve minor ports, five major ports and five vital factories. The terrain looks good at the first glance, there are many mountain hexes in Italy and Sicily, but there are also seventeen clear hexes with out a city in them. For many players is the conclusion, it’s impossible to defend Italy.

Lets us act accordingly to Sun Tzu
I have talked a bit about Italy, but lets switch the table and plan a bit from the Allied side. Acting accordingly to Sun Tzu art of war ”Know your enemy and know your self and you can fight a hundred battles without defeat”

So we jump ahead and place our self in a imagined Allied position of Nov/Dec 1941. According to Allied high command the top priority is to make a invasion of Italy as soon as possible, hope fully not later than mid 42, and knock Italy out of the war. Just to be on the safe side and not making it to difficult for the Allies, lets assume that Italy’s position is a little worse than the historical one, at this time. Everything is the same ex Germany bogged down in Russia , but with the difference that CW have already cleared out North Africa.

General Patton is briefing the allied commanders
"To compete with the Italian aircover over the Italian coast sea area and to support the invasion forces we
place long range bombers and fighters here on Tunisia and Malta. The first wave to land is mixed force of CW and US units. It consist of six infantry corps and three divisions. As reinforcements we will send a HQ ,a armoured corp and two artilleries. Gentlemen, we are gathered here to agree on were we should land. After looking one the map and cleared our thoughts with intelligence we all can conclude that there are six possible ladning areas. They are;
• Taranto area (Bari to hex 3016)
• North of Rome (Leghorn to Civiatvecchia)
• South of Rome (hex 0518 to hex 0318)
• South Sicily (hex 0411 to hex 0210 + Syracuse)
• North Sicily (hex 0512 to Palermo)
• North Italy (0424 to 0523)

Lets look at them one at a time starting from the bottom.

North Italy: It goes to the bottom of the list because its location. It’s to far away from good aircover (unless Corsica is taken first) and the closeness to Germany, Whermacht will soon be all over our landing boys. And finally the fact the one lousy army in Venice will make it almost impossible to invade there.

North Sicily: It has same problem as North Italy did. A poor Italian army can ruin the invasion plans, but in this case the unit is in Palermo. There are however some advantage over North Italy. It’s within range from friendly airbases, but any way it goes second from the bottom because the possibility for two Italian units in the mountains (hex 0412 and 0312) can hold the invasion at the bay.

South Sicily: 'Ahh' now he start talking! Four connected clear hexes. One of them is even a port ( Syracuse). Same advantage as North Sicily, it’s within range from friendly aircover. Can it get any better? The only bad things you can say applies to both North and South Sicily is that it’s so long away from the Italian factories and there are so many mountain hexes in between. And the increase of Italian production must match the value of having friendly airbases in Sicily. We can only se Sicily as a stepping stone.

South of Rome This invasion area has the things that South Sicily lacks. The closeness to Italian factories (Rome and Naples) and the absence of many mountain hexes close by. The down side is that the area has not port and is likely to be more heavily defended, because it’s a main factory area and a key to knowing Italy out of the war. Also we can only count on our CV's and long range FTR for support.

North of Rome: It has a little, but significant advantage over Southern Rome. It has two ports (Leghorn and Civitavcchia) and from Corsica, if we take it first, can our marines just walk over and save our boys the trouble of invading. Also here we have chances of cutting the Italian railroad net, making a second invasion in south Italy more easy when German troops have trouble of redeploying there. And finally, the area is a little less likely to be as heavily defended as the south Rome area. The only real bad thing, if we set aside the air cover problem which is the same as the south of Rome area, is that you only get one hex against Rome and has one hex to go before you reach a another close by factory city, Genoa. But it could be worse.

Taranto: This area looks so good to invade. Like taking candy from child. It's a relatively isolated area with a factory as its price, and you get three hexes against the factory in Taranto right away. Another benefit is that only the units in Bari are likely to be counter attacked. The only down side is the mountains all around the area, we could get bogged down there for a long time. And you only one a port (Bari) from the start.

Choosing the time of the attack.
Let's us look back first. Before the US entered the war, were the possibilities to make a major invasion slim. As the Commonwealth we could as the best, perhaps, scrap together all the necessary landunits, and even the navy and airunits might be doable. But we would be hard pressed, with the Italians fighting hard with landbased aircraft’s fighting in two boxes of the Italian Cost sea zone and flying defensive airsupport on invasion hexes. And we would also find it tough to get all the rein-forcement needed to expand the bridgehead, problems with replacing our loses as the Axis response will be heavy. Russia might be saved by this, but CW will pay for it. And it will be a very costly battle mark my words. The best we could is to se it as a raid, to distract the Axis. We should instead be on the lookout for sloppy Italian play, taking Italian east Africa, Tobruk, possible the whole of North Africa, to take more airbases close to Italy (like Sardinia) and for other minor operations to perform against the Italians. Now, after the US is in the war, we have much more options.

When shall we invade? Many players have some difficulty with grasping the sound "rules" of invasions, because it seems to be backward from what happened historically. Let's examine the basic principals of invasions;
• Invade at the end of the turn, not the beginning. This limits the number of impulses before the feet unfilps, gives the enemy less time to react to the invasion and gives the possibility of double moves.
• Invade during rain turns. You might find hexes out of supply and therefor with less defence. The enemy response will also be slow because of the weather stopping their movements. You reinforcement are less hindered by this since they arrive by ship. Rain impulses also reduces the damage possible by hostile airforces to the Navy.
• There is one exception to the two rules above; If you have 2-1 superiority you will benefit more from the invading at summer turns and in the beginning of the turn. Many historical invasion to ok place under these conditions and therefor people seem to like to do the same, even if they can’t get the 2-1 superiority needed to take advantage of the invasion

With the rules of invasion in thought we look through the weather charts and find that Sep/Oct or Nov/Dec
1942 seems to be good months to invade and with bigger than 20% and 30% respectively chances of rain in the Mediterranean. Jan/Feb and Mar/Apr 1943 is followed close behind with bigger than 20% and 20% respectively chances of rain. A invasion to Italy in summer of 42 is less likely, since we will have trouble getting the 2-1 superiority we need put with a little luck on the entry and turn length still possible. We aim for that goal, going along with over strategic plan and the sound theory of attrition. As the allies we need to kill Axis land unit's even tough we might lose some more BP's in the process. Operation Husky is one for May/June 1942. The primary beach area for the invasion, Taranto. Secondary target Sicily.

Lets us get back in the drivers seat for Italy.
We must think about the knowledge we have gained from thinking as Allies and put it to good use when we are planing the Italian defence. Remember it is still only Jul/Aug. 1940 and we have allot of time to get our defences ready.

If we disregard from the three and a half hexes that borders the Western Mediterranean Sea, every other hex borders the Italian Cost sea area. If we could control this sea area we would keep 92,6% of our coastal area much, much more safe from the treat of invasion! So, how do we secure the Italian Cost sea area from the Allies? Our Navy can’t beat both the British and US navvies and to make it worse the Allies already have one port in this sea zone, the island of Malta. The NAVs from Regina Aeronautica will cause problems for the Allies if it’s position in the two box since then we have a handful of fighters that can support them. But facing a force Allied of carriers backed up by land based planes we be in trouble. Even if we build some aircraft carriers to increase our capabilities we will be pressed by the Allied forces. The solution is to deprive the Allies of so many naval and airbases as possible, near the Italian cost sea zone. This will make Italy a fortress until the parameter is broken



The defensive parameter
The defensive strategy for the outer parameter defence is designed to.
• Keep the Allies from having interesting landing beaches at main land Italy and Sicily directly, by stopping them from having Naval and airbases close to Italy.
• Stop the Allies from getting air superiority into the Italian coast sea zone. And thus giving Italy a chance of fighting with land based air against intruders in the Italian cost sea zone.
• Give Italy a warning that the Allies are strong enough to be on the offensive when they start to probe the outer defence parameter. And thereby stopping possibility of any surprise invasions of Italy.

Planing the defensive parameter is easy. You only need to control every thing close to the Italian Cost sea area or leaving it in neutral hands, like Greece, Viched Corsica and Yugoslavia. This means you have to control the rest. Lets step through each country/territory one at a time;
• Sardinia
• Malta
• Corsica
• Albania
• Yugoslavia
• Greece

Sardinia
Sardinia importance should not be over looked!
I have seen many Italian players leaving it undefended and easy captured by the Allies.
From Sardinia the Allies has the great airforce base
that they desperately need against Italy. And it’s easy for them to capture it. Especially if you play with limited over sea supply. If they cut the supply, they can make a quick invasion and land ex a division automatically, because Sardinia is not home country and being out of supply reduces the notional defenders strength to zero! But if you put two units in Sardinia, one in hex 0915 and one at 0816 you get ZOC in every hex at the island! Giving every hex at least one point in defence! If you can spare it is good to have the units being with print. Sardinia is one main defensive points in the parameter defence!

Malta
Malta is the key to success for the defensive parameter. First of all it is the only Allied base in the Italian cost sea area after the Fall of France and it is a major port from which the can dominate the sea are. A forward positioned airforce base to support the navy, harass the Italian navy and convoys, both at sea and in port, support invasions, strategically bombard or use a s spring board for future transport down to Egypt. The also have a place to put slow moving TRS and AMPH, that would otherwise have been useless to the first wave of invasion and finally they can station paratroopers to treat landings

Malta is a thorn in the axis side

Historically Rommel was given to order to regroup for operation Hercules - The invasion of Malta- on the first of august 1942. The invasion force was to be made of eight divisions (mostly Italian) and two German paratrooper battalions. But even the famous general made one big mistake he postponed operation Hercules!

If you can capture Malta with a surprise invasion early in the war, then do it! I say it’s worth the risks with an early declaration of war. If you can’t take it easy, don’t despair. With German help you should be able to capture it soon. The best time for a German/ Italian operation Hercules is between the fall of France and to spring 41 (later the planes are needed on the Eastern front). With no attack on Spain, has Luftwaffe little to do except make the blitz against CW and perhaps support a attack against Greece, Yugoslavia. If the Germans are reluctant to commit an force against Malta. Point out to the German that his short range (3 range) fighter and bombers are practically useless (No reach and limited strategically air values) in the air war over Britain. But they mean the difference between success and failure against Malta. Luftwaffe together with Regina Aeronautic is to big a match for the RAF defenders on Malta.
The plan to capture the island is simple, put the defenders out of supply with NAVs and Fighters in the two boxes of the connecting sea areas. Submarines and NAVY raids are useful if the CW tries to keep the supply open with his navy. It’s even more easily to accomplice it if you play with limited supply. Flip the garrison with ground strikes. Then attack with anything needed to capture it, ex air landing of paratroopers, invasions by infanterydivsions and Marines. Everything supported by shore- bombardment and lots of TAC.

Corsica
Corsica seems at first glance useless to the Allies, but isn’t. Even tough it only has one port and it’s in the wrong sea area does Corsica have it’s uses for the Allies. With a HQ on the island he can have one plane on it and two other planes in Ajaccio (hex 0918). This gives the Allies a big advantage if they wants to attack southern France, Sardinia or support a invasion of Italy with his airforce. Remember that the Allies also can move over the striates to Sardinia, or walk with a marine directly to Italy! Corsica is one main defensive points in the parameter defence.

The biggest problem with is that Corsica is that it becomes Vichy France. The best thing to do to avoid this, is to concur it before France Falls. If it goes Free France you must capture it! Apply the same principal as with Malta and you will succeed. If it goes Vichy France then you have another problem. You can’t enter it (unless it was you who installed the Vichy government). Until there is Allied unit in main land Vichy the Germans can’t enter it either. The solution is to send a German HQ together with a land unit to Corsica. They can enter under the foreign HQ rule. Then you remove the HQ as it is badly needed on other fronts. Place the German landunit in Ajaccio (hex 0918). This covers all the interesting invasion areas from the Western Mediterranean. If you want to be real secure place another one in hex 0819.

Albania
Albania is easily defended. You only need one unit in Tirana(hex 2817) to control the cost with ZOC. This is important because like Sardinia, is not home country and if it’s put out of supply the notional defenders strength will be zero! A word of caution, because the Allies have a trick to pull with a landing
in Albania. When they have four units in Albania the can activate Yugoslavia, if it’s still neutral!

Yugoslavia
Yugoslavia is not as important as the rest of the above countries/territories. First of all it’s easily defended and offers only insignificant air force and navy bases for the Allies. One unit in hex 0122 and one in Dubrovnik (hex 3020) is all that is needed to even keep they Allies from looking at Yugoslavia.
They unit should not be Italian as they are needed in Italy. Make it a Hungarian, Rumanian or Bulgarian unit. A plus with having units there is that they still hunt partisans in Yugoslavia so they are not wasted.
The hex of Zara (0222) is Italian and important to remember if Yugoslavia still is neutral. Then you might consider putting a unit there. I have not done it my self, but if you have one over...

Greece
Greece is almost the same as Yugoslavia. One unit in hex 2714 and one in Patrai (hex 2513) is all that is needed to guard the interesting hexes. The garrison units should apply the same suggestion as with the Yugoslavian ones. Another word of caution,
the allies can make the Albania trick in Greece too!
Of course if Greece is neutral, you can' just ignore it.

The defence of main land Italy, including Sicily
According to our production plan Italy should have
the following 21 army/coresized and 5 division sized landunits available in MayJun 1942, possible loses are not include and anyway they should be German ones or compensated for by Germany!

Of these units is one Inf likely stuck in Italian E Africa, another one is placed in Albania, 2 Mil is defending Sardina and a Gar and one artillery division on Malta. On Tripoli, one Gar and one Mil. This leaves you with 14 Corps, and 4 division units. Not bad! Besides you will be able to produce some of the Mils and Gar again after they are killed. They will likely be in position in mail land Italy or Sicily to do more use there, before the Allies can land.

The defensive strategy is three folded.
• First it’s designed to boost potential landing hexes defences. Thus making it harder for the Allies to get ashore and if they do, making it more likely that the will be flipped after the landing.
• Second benefit is that a striking forces with armor is position near the interesting landing beaches and thus making it possible for the defender to throw the attacker back out into the sea.
• Position the airforce so that it both can strike at intruders in the Italian cost sea zone and cover interesting landing beaches and enabling both defensive and offensive support.

Producing for defence
Lets start with the fun part, German aid to Italy. The turn after France is Vichied (normally in Jul/Aug 1940) Italy will receive big support from Germany until the Germans can get there hands on more factories. This is all because Germany can’t use every thing for it self. Below is a table for location of friendly controlled/traded resources and factories for Germany, of a typical game situation in Sep/Oct 40.

Country Res/Oil Red/Friendly Factory
Belgium 1/ 1/
Czechoslovakia 1/ 2/
France 5/ 3/
Germany+Austria 8/2 7/13
Hungary 1/
Iraq /1
Netherlands 1/
Poland 2 1/
Rumania /2
Russia 4/2
Spain 1/
Sweden 3/
Turkey 1/
Total 35 27

Since Germanys only has 27 factories and thus only can use 27 resources is 8 resources left over to Italy! But hold your horses, these is the dream scenario. Lets calculate on a much more likely, dark outcome, then you will know the minimum resources sent to you and probably it will be more!
• Allied attack on convoys in Baltic/partisans will take one resource.
• Allies conquer Iraq takes another oil resource.
• Russia demands borderlands will take one resources
• And finally, if you play with the oil rule Germany will need 2-3 oils just to reorganise flipped units and save for future needs.

These means that Germany can send 2 or likely more resources to Italy each turn until the get more factories.

As Italy we control 5 (one oil trade from Rumania) resources and with the German sent resources we have a total 7. We use the oil for reorganisation of units.
These means we will have 6*0.75 (Italy's production multiple) = 4.5 which is rounded up to 5 build points for Italy Sep/Oct and Nov/Dec 1940.

When Greece is attacked and Yugoslavia conquered /aligned you should get one or two more resources. This will probably happen at the end of 40 or beginning of 41. Let's again assume the worst, only one more resource starting Mar/Apr 41. This gives you a production of 7 (8 resources/oil -1 for reorganisation and a production multiple of 1), except the first turn of 41 when you only get 6 build points

We assume Italy enters the war during the summer of 1940 at the May/Jun turn. Notes the drop in production, this due to the oil used to reorganise units instead of production.

According to our planed defence we will need more land units and since will want the so many as possible ready to a potential invasion in summer of 42 we must build one land unit each turn, starting from 1941 until the end of the game.

Starting 41, Italy should build 1 land unit each turn,
until the end of the game

Year Moth Units BP
1939 Sep/Oct 0 (+3)
Nov/Dec Mar 5 (-2)
1940 Jan/Fen P ,Amph(fd) 5 (-1)
Mar/Apr Nav2, TRS(fd) 4 (+1)
May/Jun Ftr2, P 4
Jul/Aug Ftr2, P 4
Sep/Oct Amph(fu), Nav3 6 (-1)
Nov/Dec TRS(fu), 3 (+2)
1941 Jan/Fen Nav3, P, Gar 5 (-1)
Mar/Apr Art4, CVP, P 7
May/Jun Armor, Frt2 8 (-1)
Jul/Aug Mtn, P, CVP 7
Sep/Oct Gar, 2*P, 6 (+1)
Nov/Dec Gar,Inf, Ftr2 7
1942 Jan/Fen Gar,Inf, Mil, P 9 (-2)
Mar/Apr 2*Mil, Lnd3 7
- Stop! Some of you scream. Where is the Italian sub program? Well, since Italian subs are better than German subs and Italy has easier access to Naval moves. Each extra resource send to Italy can easily become a sub on the production spiral. Kindly inform the German player/AI that if he wants you to win the submarine war for him, you will do it. But it will cost extra resources, more than the calculated 2 or 3 that you need to survive.

Another point is to think about is that is the CV program or lack of it. By putting the CV program aside you speeding up the airforce schedule. You will be ready to compete with CW much sooner and then you might catch CW with to few airunits in the Med.

What should you do with possible extra resources? Here is a list our useful tips;
• Some extra CPs are useful if you play with limited overseas supply.
• Your excellent submarines and frogmen can make life a living hell for Commonwealth
• Finishing and repairing Naval units
• Build more planes and pilots
• Replacing loses

Timing the pulling back
In many games the Italian player's makes the fatale mistakes of;
• Hopelessly continue attacking to reach objectives when the tide turns (like with the US entry into the war), is very unlikely to be taken. Ex What's the point of attacking Suez when Patton will be knocking on your front door?
• Defending a too big area and spreading the troops too thin. Ex The black gold of Iraq will turn in to a Staligrad, when your troops gets cut of by Russians or Englishmen. One or two extra turn of oil is not worth the 7+ BP that was guarding the oil wells.
• Retreating to quickly. Ex Did nobody learn from the historical Monte Casino? Excellent mountain positions along the cost in North West Africa are left empty without a fight. This gives the Allies quick access to airbases along the cost needed to support battle in the Italian Sea, attack Tripoli and Strategically Bomb Italy. When an even a speed bump could have brought you precious time to prepare.
• Been careless with transports. Recall it takes a long time to ship your troops back from Africa. Always guard your transport and if possible never leave the at sea or in a small port. The Allies loves to attack them. Ex Upps! Eh,Adolf? The Africa Corps will be in Africa a little while longer than we expected…

These are both stupid and unnecessary errors. Instead buy planing and preparing your a defence in good time you can avoid these errors. Of course this does not mean to pull back all your troops 1941. The trick
Is the to have all key positions in the defence parameter occupied early. Then is the risk of been caught with your pants down much less. Else is a good thumb rules two turns after US enters the European war you can expect things to start happen. Then by the latest you must start to pullback into good defence positions. But, if Gibraltar is in your hands these whole article is of no big use to you.

Only defensive?
Finally all this talk about defensive, has bored me too.
Should Italy only defend? No! It’s like playing chess, when you have an advantage you must attack, else you risk losing you advantage and missing your opportunity to expand the advantage. When you are on the defence, you must defend else you risk that the disadvantage gets even bigger. But remember that there is lots of different defence to use. Aggressive, passive, dynamic etc. If you see a opening, you must dare to attack a passive defence is almost like no defence at all.
If you want to read about Italy's offensive options early on in the game, then I warmly recommend earlier articles in previous annuals.

Summarising the knowledge gained
By seen the facts we know that Italy is one of the most vulnerable major power in the game. Also Italy must by all means possible try to keep losses to a minimum. The Italian army is mostly canon food and the real defence comes from the Airforce.
From thinking as Allies we learned that there are three main invasion areas; Taranto, Sicily and the other areas if the defence there is neglected. Remember it's the Allied player who has the choice, but by the way Italy's defence is set-up, you can steer the Allies to go for one of these areas that you want. The best time of the attack seems to be after the US has entered the war and near the end of a rain impulse. Sep/Oct or Nov/Dec 1942 is the most promising. An invasion to Italy in summer of 42 is less likely, but possible. Produce along the lines of the defence plan and demand resource from Germany. Landunits must be built at a steady rate from 1941 to the end of the game. Pullback into defensive positions while it's time left. A defence is not only defence, when a chance appears you must attack.

Optional rules
Lets look at some optional rules and how they affect Italy from a defence point of view.
• Artillery: This gives Italy a chance to screw up the fine Allied invasion plans by soothing defensively to help notional land units.
• Limited overseas supply: You can only trace supply path overseas if the sea area contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH. This is a double edged sword. It puts your units in Sardinia, Corsica and Malta at risk from being cut from supply more easily, but it also makes it more easy for you to cut the allied invasion force from supply and it helps you to cut of Malta in the first place.
• SCS transport: Division can invade from SCS as if the were a transport. This gives the Allies more options to perform quick invasions with smaller forces and to have the invasion force more sea areas away, thus making it harder to detect and saving the transport to follow up with corps size land units the next impulse.
• Restricted invasions: You can only invade a hex if you are adjacent to a hex-dot. This secures five hexes from direct invasion threat, including three factories! But no they have sadly remove this rule
• Amphibious rules: his mean the Allies can’t invade from transports, unless they are a marine or a division. And that they can’t put together a invasion force until they have build some Amphibious transport. Which delays the Allies offensive options against Italy until 1941, at the earliest.
• Defensive shore bombardment; Makes all island more easy to defend and also makes invasions harder do throw back into the sea.
• Offensive chits: Well what can we say…
The Allies have them and will if necessary use them to get ashore and to knockout your strong holes. Later in the game be ready to se one every turn. Always calculate that they are used against you and always check your strong points, they might not be as strong as your thought. It's nasty thing to lose a factories in the North due to surprising landing with offensive chits. But if you can convince the Germans to have a HQ on your front and ask him to have a offensive chit ready… He can throw it at any attacker who land in Italy, well just to have the chit is enough in many cases (the Germans don't have to use it on your front) then we shall se how gets the final laugh.
• 2D10: Put your Armor and Mech in good use in Russia and in the desert. But almost never ever attack in terrain that require extra loss. A low roll on the assault table is crippling. 3 losses!

/Peter

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 191
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 1:27:18 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

War of attrition
The problem with a war of attrition is that Italy can’t suffer heavy losses. Once a war of attrition begin, it’s hard for Italy to replace the losses due to the inferior production. What can you do about it then? Keep losses to a minimum. The key is to make Germany to take losses in a joint attack. Or if not possible, to compensate any Italian losses with extra resources apart from the normal resources sent to Italy. The hard part is to convince Germany of this incontrovertible fact. How should you do it? Allure him with promises of keeping the CW occupied for long time. Unable to perform any real operations against German interest while you are alive and kicking.

Long reading (not finished yet) but just a comment here.

Be wary as the German to send too much BP on Italy, too early, and see that you can't break the pact with the Soviet. I think that the German AIO must make a pretty precise assessment of the BP he needs to build the necessary garrison points to break the pact in MJ41, when a Barb 41 was the chosen global strategy.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 192
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 1:33:31 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

The Rommel or von Bock HQ. The HQ is important as it allows Germany to enter Viche France territories under the foreign guest HQ rule.

This is wrong.
With RAW, the german can't enter the Vichy France territories, even satisfying the foreign troop commitments.
Only if Vichy is active this is possible, but for Vichy to be active you have to have the Allied player be insane. It's so easy to avoid.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 193
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 1:35:30 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

What do the Germans receive as a compensation for these, so of you might wonder? Lots! As always you are a pain in the but for Commonwealth. And with these you will keep him of Germans back for years. And then we have the Italian support to Germany. This is the tricky part, you don’t have so many thing to lend out to Germany, but there are some things that Wermacht might find use full. Remember to barging with German about what you will recive if you send him support.
• During the first two turns of operation Barbarosa will Regina Aeronautica make a important contribution to the attack, since Luftwaffe will have trouble keeping up with the front-line. TAC and Fighter will be needed. Personally I don’t send more than three units, because that is so many air missions Italy has on a Combined.
• Air cover for Germans Factories. As you have limited use for you 3 range fighters these can be a good way to find use for them.
• An Italian HQ in France to keep the submarine bases and garrisons in supply.
• Italian garrisons in occupied countries to keep the partisans at the bay.
• An Italian HQ in Russia to help keep everything in supply when the front expands.
• Italian FTR/NAV to protect the Baltic sea area from the annoying CW Sunderland or irritating Russian navy/subs which try to raid, German convoys.
• With 2D10 option. Italian Armor and Mech are a fine addition to Wermacht forces in Russia.

Also the Italian SUBs initiating searches for the German. THis is a huge compensation.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 194
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 1:46:08 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

Invade during rain turns. You might find hexes out of supply and therefor with less defence. The enemy response will also be slow because of the weather stopping their movements. You reinforcement are less hindered by this since they arrive by ship. Rain impulses also reduces the damage possible by hostile airforces to the Navy.

Be carefull here, your giving advice based on age old ruleset.

The notional defending against invasions need to be completely isolated to suffer a -1 (islands for example). It just need to trace an infinite supply line to avoid the -1.

Worse, invading in rain gives a bonus to the notional unit, equal to the shore bombardment modifier. Under rain, this modifier in Section 3 of the Sea area is 1, so the notional has a +1 in strength for EACH unit that invade. That's suicide.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 195
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 1:57:10 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

The biggest problem with is that Corsica is that it becomes Vichy France. The best thing to do to avoid this, is to concur it before France Falls. If it goes Free France you must capture it!

What ?
Corsica can't become Free France.
Corsica is part of the Metropolitan Vichy France administrative group, which is Vichy France.

When Vichy France is collapsed, it becomes Free French (because it is not part of the France Home Country, it is a controlled Territory) and cen become a threat to Italy, and for this (and a number of other reasons) the Axis should think twice before collapsing Vichy France.

quote:

Apply the same principal as with Malta and you will succeed. If it goes Vichy France then you have another problem. You can’t enter it (unless it was you who installed the Vichy government). Until there is Allied unit in main land Vichy the Germans can’t enter it either. The solution is to send a German HQ together with a land unit to Corsica. They can enter under the foreign HQ rule. Then you remove the HQ as it is badly needed on other fronts. Place the German landunit in Ajaccio (hex 0918). This covers all the interesting invasion areas from the Western Mediterranean. If you want to be real secure place another one in hex 0819.

I'm sorry, this is impossible, see 17.4.

**********************************
17.4 Running Vichy France
(...)
Access to Vichy territory
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.
**********************************

In my previous post I wrote that Vichy needed to be hostile for that to happen, it only need to be active. But to be active, the Allies have to declare war to it.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 196
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 2:04:54 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

Another point is to think about is that is the CV program or lack of it. By putting the CV program aside you speeding up the airforce schedule. You will be ready to compete with CW much sooner and then you might catch CW with to few airunits in the Med.

A CV is useless to Italy, unless it goes out of the Med.
CV are usefull to project power in Sea Areas where you lack airbases. Tis is not the case of Italy if Italy stays in the Med.
So if Gibraltar is not conquered, Italy should not waste BPs on a Carrier. Moreover, 1 CV against the half a 6-8 that the CW have is worth nothing.
Better build every Gabbiano and SM.79 they have, and as much FTR they can.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 197
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 2:22:24 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

From thinking as Allies we learned that there are three main invasion areas; Taranto, Sicily and the other areas if the defence there is neglected. Remember it's the Allied player who has the choice, but by the way Italy's defence is set-up, you can steer the Allies to go for one of these areas that you want.

I agree.
IMO the best for the Italian is to think to its defense from north to south.
The key is that ITaly WILL get conquered, whatever it does (except if it closed the med, etc...).
Another key in the game as the axis is the art of buying time.
Combining both means that the farther southward the allies invade, the better. So as you won't be able to triple stack all factories and have 1 unit in each coastal hex, then you need to decide where your weak spot will be, and it is better for you if the weak spot is around Taranto rther than around Rome. Both will make you get conquered, but the allies in Rome area at the fall of Italy are closer to the Valence's mountains than if they are around Tarento when Italy falls. The Florence's mountains are the area north of which the German should never let an allied unit invade or land.

quote:

The best time of the attack seems to be after the US has entered the war and near the end of a rain impulse. Sep/Oct or Nov/Dec 1942 is the most promising. An invasion to Italy in summer of 42 is less likely, but possible. Produce along the lines of the defence plan and demand resource from Germany. Landunits must be built at a steady rate from 1941 to the end of the game. Pullback into defensive positions while it's time left. A defence is not only defence, when a chance appears you must attack.

Here I differ from you. Especially on the rainy impulse that means suicide invasion.
The CW has to be opportunistic and dedicated on his task of hurting Italy and conquering it. Seize every occasion, be ready to invade Sardinia as you describe, take Tripoli at the first opportunitiy (can be in summer 40).
This mean that the CW should not be on a schedule, it should rather invade whenever possible. If possible to land in Sicily in 41, so be it, do it. Don't wait for the Americans if you can do it yourself. this said, my group and I play with the Hitler's war rule that means that Italy don't get a production bonus from the mere presence of allied units on its soil, only when it is attacked does it get a boost.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 198
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 5:30:49 AM   
Zorachus99


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I often look at the use of airplanes in Italy akin to using a chess knight to fork your units defensively.  You will be able to use the unit to protect more than one operational area, but once used is no longer operational for the fronts it previously defended.  The idea is, with smaller invasions (which establish beacheads) you can effectively contest them if they are not multi-target landings by simply deploying the aircraft to cover the maximum number of hexes which have high value and may be invaded.  Having air superiority (semi-rare) and simply having 2 tac in italy during an invasion can be a huge help.  Use one aircraft to contest the beach on invasion, use the other to groundstrike the invasion hex if they land face-up.  The brits almost always knee-jerk with all their available intercept fighters to cover their ground invasions, which is expensive as they end up using many more aircraft than the defenders and their bases fill up with flipped planes which makes reinforcement very difficult.  This works up to a net advantage short-term, which I call 'mudding them down', in regards attempting your best to disrupt the initial landing.  If that initial landing shows up completely flipped, you may have time, perhaps a whole turn to react if you have zoc on the beach.

Multi-hex invasions are obviously much more difficult to defend.

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 199
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 10:41:08 AM   
peskpesk


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Ahh, I see that you are correct. The better for Italy when the problem is gone and a big curse to my gaming group for letting us play it wrong!

Allies must be crazy then for I have many times seen them declare war on Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia or Syria. And it's so nice to slip in German troops to the defence.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 200
Italian entry options - 2/24/2008 12:05:06 PM   
peskpesk


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Italian entry options 39-40.


A) 39-40 Strategy Threaten CW
1) Delay DOW Allies.
2) Threaten Egypt (4 corps) to keep the BEF in France small
3) If the CW brings units out of the Middle East and puts them in France DOW the CW and attack Egypt.
4) Attack Malta if possible


B) 39-40 Strategy Delay until France falls.
1) DOW CW when France is about fall.
2) Attack Malta (using surprise impulse) if possible
3) Ship forces to Libya and attack Egypt
4) Hit CW at sea

C) 39 Strategy Early entry, full naval war.
1) DOW France and CW on Impulse 3(using surprise impulse) hit CW at sea.
2) Port strike French navy if possible
3) Cheap shot the allied convoys with subs(in cooperation with German Kriegsmarine operations) and attack CW fleet when possible. Avoid meeting both France and CW navies.
4) Attack Italian/French border when Germany begins the offensive against France

D) 39-40 Strategy Early entry DOW France only.
1) Attack Italian/French border (Use Shore bombardment and surprise) if possible
2) Go after Tunisia, Algeria & Morocco
3) Invade Syria
4) Port strike French navy if possible

E) 39-40 Strategy Early entry DOW CW only, limited naval war.
1) DOW CW on after he has committed navy.
2) Attack Malta (using surprise impulse) if possible
3) Hit CW at sea
4) Attack Cyprus
5) Look for a good surprise attack on France.( Be wary of one too)


F) 40 Strategy Normal entry.
1) DOW CW and France when Germany begins the offensive against France.
2) Ground strike French units (using surprise impulse) with your 2 long range LNDs.
3) Attack Malta (using surprise impulse) if possible
4) Attack Italian/French border If possible

Always take hard look at Gibraltar

/Peter

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 201
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 12:38:03 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Ahh, I see that you are correct. The better for Italy when the problem is gone and a big curse to my gaming group for letting us play it wrong!

Allies must be crazy then for I have many times seen them declare war on Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia or Syria. And it's so nice to slip in German troops to the defence.

Obviously, there are also good reasons to DoW Vichy, but the allies are in control of that, I mean if they see that they can be countered by the Axis sending troops in Marghreb with a German HQ, they can avoid DoWing. The conquest of Magrheb is quick normaly, so it can be done anyway the Allies sees that the Axis can't counter them this way.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 202
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/24/2008 3:53:56 PM   
brian brian

 

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to build or not to build an Italian CV is a glass half-full or glass half-empty question. I like to have one to help the Japanese defend the seaward approaches to the Middle East, with only Suez in Axis hands and Gibraltar sealed off as much as possible by land-based air. An independent CV group in the Indian Ocean can be a big help to the Japanese as the Axis try to wring a few more turns out of the oil-fields before Uncle Sam shows up.

(in reply to Froonp)
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RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/29/2008 6:28:43 PM   
Mitchellvitch

 

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quote:

to build or not to build an Italian CV is a glass half-full or glass half-empty question. I like to have one to help the Japanese defend the seaward approaches to the Middle East, with only Suez in Axis hands and Gibraltar sealed off as much as possible by land-based air. An independent CV group in the Indian Ocean can be a big help to the Japanese as the Axis try to wring a few more turns out of the oil-fields before Uncle Sam shows up.


I would argue that the Italian navy can't really function effectively even in the Med. without at least one carrier, given their lack of long range fighters. The two box just isn't good enough in most cases, and German long range fighters have other fish to fry.

That said, they do tend to get sunk rather quickly, or to spend a lot of time in the repair pool.

(in reply to brian brian)
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RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/29/2008 7:19:06 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

quote:

to build or not to build an Italian CV is a glass half-full or glass half-empty question. I like to have one to help the Japanese defend the seaward approaches to the Middle East, with only Suez in Axis hands and Gibraltar sealed off as much as possible by land-based air. An independent CV group in the Indian Ocean can be a big help to the Japanese as the Axis try to wring a few more turns out of the oil-fields before Uncle Sam shows up.


I would argue that the Italian navy can't really function effectively even in the Med. without at least one carrier, given their lack of long range fighters. The two box just isn't good enough in most cases, and German long range fighters have other fish to fry.

That said, they do tend to get sunk rather quickly, or to spend a lot of time in the repair pool.

Well, most true, but IMO impossible to solve.
If the Italians build 1 CV to cover their fleet in the 3 or 4 box, their CV will get slaughtered and their fleet too by the British CV who are a lot more numerous.
If the Italians don't build a CV to cover their fleet in the 3 or 4 box, it means that they can't safely sail here, so they are stuck to the 1 and 2 boxes.
So they have the choice of using BPs in a CV that will most of the time die at its first confrontation, or use BPs in building FTRs and NAVs that will cover them efficiently in the 1 or 2 box, but meaning that their shore bombardment will be severely reduced (but still able to double the notional factor of an invaded hex).

I think that this is a no brainer, and that if they have no Indian Ocean or Atlantic Ocean ambitions, that is if they did not take Suez or Gibraltar, this is an absolute waste of BPs to ue BPs on CVs.

Italy is tight in its BP spending, they have so much to buy with so small income. They need to use their BP efficiently.

(in reply to Mitchellvitch)
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RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 2/29/2008 8:17:22 PM   
composer99


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The Axis can sort of do without FTR cover at sea in 39-40 while the CW has few carriers and their air-to-sea factors are weak, as long as they have the NAV search bonuses.

Once the Allies have scads of NAVs, their long-range fighters, and lots of good carrier air then it's a different story altogether, of course.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Froonp)
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RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 3/1/2008 1:02:10 AM   
UngainlyFool

 

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I would agree. The Italian Nav makes the navy competative in the med for a while. One CV isn't going to help above and beyond that, especially if the navy is being used to guerrilla vulnerable targets in individual sea areas.

The quality of the italian CV's makes it a BP sink for the most part in my opinion.

The CV in the Indian Ocean may also tie the Italian action to Combined or Naval as well to stay in Japanese support. It may be crucial to do that Air action just when the CV will be the most vulnerable.

< Message edited by UngainlyFool -- 3/1/2008 1:07:54 AM >

(in reply to composer99)
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RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 3/10/2008 2:30:59 PM   
Mitchellvitch

 

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On a different note, in most of the games I've played, Italy is forced into a declaration of war against the Commonwealth in 40 - Basically the Royal Navy parks a carrier force off the Italian coast and threatens a massive surprise port attack on the Italian fleet, leaving the Italians little option but to declare war to avoid the damage.

Of course this would cost US entry points, but can Italy really risk it?

Should the AI be aware of this?

(in reply to UngainlyFool)
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RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 3/10/2008 7:25:59 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

On a different note, in most of the games I've played, Italy is forced into a declaration of war against the Commonwealth in 40 - Basically the Royal Navy parks a carrier force off the Italian coast and threatens a massive surprise port attack on the Italian fleet, leaving the Italians little option but to declare war to avoid the damage.

Of course this would cost US entry points, but can Italy really risk it?

Should the AI be aware of this?

Yes. And for playing either Italy or the CW.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Mitchellvitch)
Post #: 209
RE: Bodyarmor for the soft underbelly, a option for goo... - 5/11/2009 6:47:14 AM   
brian brian

 

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so in the Pipe Dreams thread we have been kicking Italy around. also just lately I have put a few hours into a solitaire CyberBoard game I have been playing, which has reached M/J 42 of late. the Axis went with a 41 'Barbarossa, pure-air-Italian-build strategy. (OK maybe they started a TRS too). the Russians attacked Persia and Japan intervened, simultaneously launching war in Siberia. (when playing solitaire one of the most difficult decisions is how to conduct Japanese/Russian relations, so in this game I went with a Russian Persian intervention + Japanese DoW. I do not think this is a good Russian strategy, as it opens a lucrative door to Japan, but I wanted to see what happened with that when facing a nearly maximized Italian air force and a war with Japan). the Germans should be able to align Turkey by late Jul/Aug 42 or Sep/Oct at the latest. (The Italian air strategy is indeed difficult for the Russians to handle....they hold Leningrad, Murmansk, and Archangel, losing an HQ-I and two ARM in the process along with the usual horrendous infantry losses. All but 3 facories made it east, but the Germans should be firmly established on the west bank of the Volga soon and perhaps crossing it in Jul/Aug.

so I didn't see it coming really but this situation has opened up an interesting question for the Axis....what to do about the Middle East in the middle of the game? I'm thinking about building the two Italian HQ-I's and sending them across the straits at Istanbul to campaign around some. (oh yes, what have the CW been doing? they simultaneously built a Japanese defense and a Russian pipeline to Murmansk. They invested in a Free French Indo-China and a strong force in Singapore of a land/4 Fort, two white-print infantry, and the Royal Engineers, in addition to several cheap infantry in Burma and garrisons in Suez and Aden. the Russian support has been slow as US Entry is severely lagging, only playing Lend-Lease BPs to Russia in Mar/Apr 42, with the Japanese about to launch war in May/Jun. The CW has also been setting up to take Iraq with HQs in Kuwait and mobile forces poised on the Vichy Syrian border...but this is in jeapordy due to the imminent arrival of the IJN in the Indian Ocean.

so perhaps the Italian-Air-Barbarossa strategy does have a big payoff for Italy as the Axis opens a route to the Arab oil thanks to all those planes bombing the poor Russians... ???

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
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