Slitherine

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Ok. But I do not see how France gets 5 BP in Sep/Oct. Is the CW convoying the French Indo-China resource to Marseilles?

There are 6 resources in Metropolitan France and the 1 Algerian resource can be brought in by rail (through Spain). 3 convoys can bring the 1 Senegal resource up to Brest. With 8 resources delivered, that only leaves 4 French convoys remaining to bring in the 2 remaining Pacific resources.

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ORIGINAL: CBoehm
Early build for France:

"incl. blitzbonus"
1939 (assuming no early Ge attack - otherwise Mil and Inf)
S/O Mech ...then Mil or a ATgun if one avail.
N/D Mil, Mech-d ...then more Mil or pilot and/or fighter depending on inf-gearing

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1940
J/F Gar, Inf ...then fighter if more bp avail.

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M/A Mil ...rest LL to CW
M/J Mil or inf, gar (Mil has the added benefit that these are removed in case of Vichy installation, so they, and RES, dont contribute to the Vichy garrison) ...Normally I would try to LL 5 bp or so to CW and build with the rest ...
J/A (assuming France is close to collapse) LL 5-8 bp to CW ...build Mil for rest.

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"Excl. Blitz bonus"
S/O 39: HQ ...then MIL and pilots
N/D+: Inf, Mil, Fighters ...guns ...ART mostly usefull if NOT playing with fractional odds.

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Free France
try to build 1-3 good INF...then Fighters & pilots. If playing with Amphrule then try to either build or breakdown to inf-d and mtn-d for invasion purposes, since this is a real addition to CWs invasion capability in 41-42.

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Later on (42+) trying to lay down a FF TRN or Amph can be a good idea too. If 3 factor HQI is available this can be a good investment too since it allows the FF to do a airimpulse and reorg AC. De Gaulle is IMO only really worth the cost if NOT playing with allied combat friction.

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Quite often it pays to LL a few bps from CW to France in N/D 39 and J/F 40 ...then LL back to CW the following turns - this has often nedded me a transfer of 10-15 bps to CW before France is conquered/Vichy-installed ...

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am surprised that no one has mentioned building the 3rd French HQ-I for the first turn's builds.

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"Excl. Blitz bonus"
S/O 39: HQ ...then MIL and pilots

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Currently, my plan is to not create a specific build schedule for the French. Instead I will place the emphasis on defending against land attacks. That has the effect of making the value of good defensive units higher. Besides the obvious strength factors for land units, there are bonuses for anti-tank guns, artillery, armor, and HQs (because of their ability to reorganize units). Additionally, tactical air and fighters get bonuses. Offensive chits are considered too (again because they can be used to reorganize HQs and then units). To a lesser degree, AA gets an value increase.

The net effect is that each available unit in the force pool has an effective Combat Value which is then divided by its Build Point cost to get its CV/BP worth.

The second step is to see how long it takes to build each unit. This is compared against when the crisis is expected to occur. For France that is normally M/J 1940, though it might be earlier if Germany uses a France first strategy, or later if Germany goes off conquering other minor countries (e.g., Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece). The build schedule attempts to maximize the total CVs of units arriving before or on the crisis turn.

The third step is to allow for gearing. Since there are unlikely to be very many alternatives possible (at least for France early in the game), a straightforward examination and evaluation of all legal build schedules involving units over a certain CV/BP can be performed. The schedule that delivers the highest CV on or before the crises turn 'wins'.

This process will be performed fresh each turn to allow for changing circumstances. Besides the obvious annual additions to the force pool, there are also casualties to be considered, both past and expected future ones. If the crisis has arrived, then the strategic position is one of "Desperate Defense", which gives greater importance to how quickly builds arrive.

To this mix, I expect to provide some randomness. For example, say there are 3 build schedules that deliver total CVs of 20, 18, and 16 on or before the crisis turn. They might be given 60%, 30%, and 10% chance of being selected. If two of them have the same builds for the first turn, then the likelihood of that first turn's build being selected is cumulative. Since this calculation is newly performed each turn, the future turns of the schedule are merely hypothetical.

The advantage of this approach is that the AIO can dynamically assess the value of gaining extra build points from the CW (or giving some away). That's done by simply starting with a different # of BPs and performing the process multiple times, comparing the difference at the end. Likewise, should resources be lost earlier or later than expected, or strategic bombing losses occur, the 'best' build schedule can still be worked out regardless of these changes to the # of expected available BPs.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am surprised that no one has mentioned building the 3rd French HQ-I for the first turn's builds.

Currently, my plan is to not create a specific build schedule for the French. Instead I will place the emphasis on defending against land attacks. That has the effect of making the value of good defensive units higher. Besides the obvious strength factors for land units, there are bonuses for anti-tank guns, artillery, armor, and HQs (because of their ability to reorganize units). Additionally, tactical air and fighters get bonuses. Offensive chits are considered too (again because they can be used to reorganize HQs and then units). To a lesser degree, AA gets an value increase.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Currently, my plan is to not create a specific build schedule for the French. Instead I will place the emphasis on defending against land attacks. That has the effect of making the value of good defensive units higher. Besides the obvious strength factors for land units, there are bonuses for anti-tank guns, artillery, armor, and HQs (because of their ability to reorganize units). Additionally, tactical air and fighters get bonuses. Offensive chits are considered too (again because they can be used to reorganize HQs and then units). To a lesser degree, AA gets an value increase.

The net effect is that each available unit in the force pool has an effective Combat Value which is then divided by its Build Point cost to get its CV/BP worth.

The second step is to see how long it takes to build each unit. This is compared against when the crisis is expected to occur. For France that is normally M/J 1940, though it might be earlier if Germany uses a France first strategy, or later if Germany goes off conquering other minor countries (e.g., Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece). The build schedule attempts to maximize the total CVs of units arriving before or on the crisis turn.

The third step is to allow for gearing. Since there are unlikely to be very many alternatives possible (at least for France early in the game), a straightforward examination and evaluation of all legal build schedules involving units over a certain CV/BP can be performed. The schedule that delivers the highest CV on or before the crises turn 'wins'.

This process will be performed fresh each turn to allow for changing circumstances. Besides the obvious annual additions to the force pool, there are also casualties to be considered, both past and expected future ones. If the crisis has arrived, then the strategic position is one of "Desperate Defense", which gives greater importance to how quickly builds arrive.

To this mix, I expect to provide some randomness. For example, say there are 3 build schedules that deliver total CVs of 20, 18, and 16 on or before the crisis turn. They might be given 60%, 30%, and 10% chance of being selected. If two of them have the same builds for the first turn, then the likelihood of that first turn's build being selected is cumulative. Since this calculation is newly performed each turn, the future turns of the schedule are merely hypothetical.

The advantage of this approach is that the AIO can dynamically assess the value of gaining extra build points from the CW (or giving some away). That's done by simply starting with a different # of BPs and performing the process multiple times, comparing the difference at the end. Likewise, should resources be lost earlier or later than expected, or strategic bombing losses occur, the 'best' build schedule can still be worked out regardless of these changes to the # of expected available BPs.

Seems good.
Is it possible to make this "formulae" work, outside of the game, so that we can try it and see what production schedule it makes. Some kind of production simulator ?

I wanted to add that for the USA and maybe Japan, the build schedule would have to have a naval part that calculate on the long run, and do not lightly cancel the many CVs built at any occasion.

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ORIGINAL: trees

I didn't get the impression that Patrice meant a production AI as a game feature, I think he meant he hopes the AI production code can be run during development to see what it decides, I think you are actually on the same page on this. It also seems like you are maybe close to seeing what the AI picks out on its own? I could understand not spilling the results though.


Steve you are right that the French Infantry gearing and thus their overall build plan is closely tied to which units are in their force pool. A few notes ... actually they start with their one Infantry division on the map. It is an option to break down a corps at set-up, using up the Motorized division. (sometimes if the Italians aren't strong on the French border I might break down the CAV corps to cover two hexes there, but I've been schooled doing that). But the motorized division isn't worth building anyway, and neither the TERRitorials, as you note. As for complete spending in a turn, I don't think very many people would ever play without Saved Build Points, even though it is an optional rule; production and gearing decisions are hard enough already, I couldn't imagine not using it. Anyway the pace of building the MIL sets up the critical Infantry gearing.

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You're right about the Infantry div starting on the map. There are only 4 mil in the game (2 are reserve and come in with the other reserve units). I have down as one build possibility for the French: Mtn, 2 Mil, Mil + Inf + Gar, Mil + ??? for the first 4 turns.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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You're right about the Infantry div starting on the map. There are only 4 mil in the game (2 are reserve and come in with the other reserve units). I have down as one build possibility for the French: Mtn, 2 Mil, Mil + Inf + Gar, Mil + ??? for the first 4 turns.

Don't forget the HQ-I, if possible. I'd prefer it rather than the MTN.

Also, if playing with blitz bonus, I think that the MECH will pay off.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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You're right about the Infantry div starting on the map. There are only 4 mil in the game (2 are reserve and come in with the other reserve units). I have down as one build possibility for the French: Mtn, 2 Mil, Mil + Inf + Gar, Mil + ??? for the first 4 turns.

Don't forget the HQ-I, if possible. I'd prefer it rather than the MTN.

Also, if playing with blitz bonus, I think that the MECH will pay off.

Does the HQ-I count as an Inf type? I built the Mtn, so I could build 2 Mil in the next turn.

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ORIGINAL: trees

Oh and here is another wrinkle ... I always keep the Paris MIL in the hex most likely to be attacked as it is the cheapest 5 strenght unit and arrives the fastest and closest to the front. Of course the Stukas can rather limit French deployment options at times though by flipping everything in sight.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Incy,

There aren't many infantry units for the French to build. To start there is 1 Mtn (+div), 1 inf div, 4 mil, 1 mot (+ div), and 14 territorials. I do not see the Terr as very attractive builds. Another Inf and Gar arrive in J/F 1940, but that only gets us to 11 if we count the Mtn and Mot and all the divisions. The Mtn and Mot take 3 turns to arrive and are too expensive to build in 1939, when there are only 5 BP available. Also these all cost 2 or 4 BP (until the 3 BP Inf arrives), which makes the 5 BPs hard to spend completely.

So, I do not see how you can build 2 + 3 + 4 infantry types in the first 3 turns. Am I missing something here?

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ORIGINAL: Incy

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Incy,

There aren't many infantry units for the French to build. To start there is 1 Mtn (+div), 1 inf div, 4 mil, 1 mot (+ div), and 14 territorials. I do not see the Terr as very attractive builds. Another Inf and Gar arrive in J/F 1940, but that only gets us to 11 if we count the Mtn and Mot and all the divisions. The Mtn and Mot take 3 turns to arrive and are too expensive to build in 1939, when there are only 5 BP available. Also these all cost 2 or 4 BP (until the 3 BP Inf arrives), which makes the 5 BPs hard to spend completely.

So, I do not see how you can build 2 + 3 + 4 infantry types in the first 3 turns. Am I missing something here?

Experience may vary, but personally I tend to have this maniac german on my east border, doing his best to kill my units!

If there's no france first, or the weather/dicegods spared any units from getting killed, the number of units built can of course be relaxed. You can usually tell if there's going to be action in winter (germans in Belgium is usually a hint..). If germany is going to be passive, I'd say the MECH is the best choice because the gearing matters less. If you're taking losses over winter, gearing becomes critical because you'll often have a hard time replacing lost units fast enough. It doesn't matter if your losses are cheap if you lack the gearing to rebuild them in time for the fight...

Strategic Plan for France
(as of April 11, 2007)								
Grand Strategist  (GS) Decision Making  					
1.1	Develop and implement long-term strategic plan; (5 St)
										
1.1.1 	Victory cities and other vital hexes

Victory Cities - Defense
Homeland:			Paris, Marseilles
Aligned with Belgium: 	Antwerp 
Aligned with Netherlands:	Amsterdam 

Vital Hexes - Defense
Homeland:			Maginot line hexes, Metropolitan France factory and resource hexes, Metropolitan France cities and ports, Alpine passes to Italy. 
Overseas:			Algiers. 
At war with Spain:		Pyrenees passes to Spain 
Aligned with Belgium:	Belgian factory and resources; Dyle River line.
Aligned with Netherlands:	Dutch factory and resource hexes


Victory Cities - Offense							
At war with Germany:	Munich, Kiel, Berlin, Prague, and Vienna 
At war with Italy:		Milan and Rome 
At war with Spain:		Madrid 

Vital Hexes - Offense
At war with Germany:	German factories, resources, cities, and ports.
At war with Italy:		Italian factories, resources, cities, and ports. Alpine passes in Italy. 
At war with Spain:		Spanish factories, resources, cities, and ports.  Pyrenees passes in Spain.

1.1.2 	Major powers on which France declares war (CIC)

Italy:		When CW declares war on Italy.  Declare war on Italy together with CW if there are some really good Italian targets, like one transport in east Africa and the other within reach of a port attack.

		Consider an all-out attack on Italy, but only if Italy screws up its deployments and leaves itself open to an Allied invasion.

1.1.3	Minor countries on which France declares war (CIC)

Belgium: 	DOW Belgium only when this becomes necessary, to catch the Germans by surprise, but not just to broaden the frontline.   A second condition is that the Wallies need to be ready to fight Germany and make progress. 

		If Germany attacks Poland and immediately thereafter Russia, leaving France only lightly screened, it could be to France's advantage to DOW Belgium sometime late 40 or early 41. 

		If Germany poses no threat to France, then the strategic defensive posture changes to something a bit more aggressive. As part of that change in strategic thinking, declare war on Belgium (to extend the frontline against Germany). 

Norway:	Never DOW Norway since that means the Norwegian naval transports and convoys go to Germany instead of to the CW.  Do not give Germany an invasion fleet for free.

		Assisting CW to attack Norway falls within the domain of helping friends (a task for the Foreign Liaison).

1.1.4	Minor countries France aligns (CIC)

Yugoslavia:	In the case of a 1939 or early 1940 Axis attack on Yugoslavia, aligning Yugoslavia to France gives the Yugoslav units a chance to move during France’s Land Actions.  Once Free France is established they make a good controller of any minor countries the Axis might still attack as they will have more action limits to work with. 

1.1.5	Areas of conflict and type of combat: land, naval, air, and/or convoys (JCS)

Land (FM) - Defense
	French border with Germany and Belgium - German land attacks
	French border with Italy - Italian land attacks.
	French border with Spain - Spanish land attacks (when war exists or is likely with Spain).
	Northern Africa - Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco from Axis attacks through Lybia or by invasion.
	Mediterranean coastline of France - Italian invasion
	North Sea coastline of France - German invasion
	Bay of Biscay coastline of France - German and/or Italian invasion, but only if they control London and Gibraltar respectively.

Naval (AD) - Defense
	North Sea - naval surface fleet combat with Germany
	Western Med, Italian Coast, and Eastern Med. - naval surface fleet combat with Italy, defend French/CW convoys.

Air (AM) - Defense
	French factories - German strategic bombing, Italian strategic bombing (when war exists with Italy).
	Against paradrops - Especially Paris, but also other victory cities and vital hexes.

Land (FM) - Offense
	German factories and oil resource(s) - land attacks.  If an opportunity exists to place 4 units into Germany, then that should be evaluated because it permits the alignment of Yugoslavia.
	Italian factories - land attacks.
	Spain - land attacks.
			
Naval (AD) - Offense
	Western Med, Italian Coast, and Eastern Med. - naval surface fleet combat with Italy, attack Italian convoys.
	North Sea and Baltic Sea - naval surface fleet combat with Germany

Air (AM) - Offense
	German factories and oil resource(s) - strategic bombing.  
	Italian factories - strategic bombing

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Vital Hexes - Defense
Overseas: Algiers.

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Air (AM) - Defense
(...)
Air (AM) - Offense
(...)

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The version I am working with is much prettier than this, with colors, bold fonts, and underlining to define relative importance and relationships. Once I have this plan completed, I'll make it available in PDF form for those who are interested.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Vital Hexes - Defense
Homeland: Maginot line hexes, Metropolitan France factory and resource hexes, Metropolitan France cities and ports, Alpine passes to Italy.

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1.1.4   Minor countries France aligns (CIC)

Yugoslavia:  In the case of a 1939 or early 1940 Axis attack on Yugoslavia, aligning Yugoslavia to France gives the Yugoslav units a chance to move during France’s Land Actions.  Once Free France is established they make a good controller of any minor countries the Axis might still attack as they will have more action limits to work with.

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1.1.4   Minor countries France aligns (CIC)

Yugoslavia:  In the case of a 1939 or early 1940 Axis attack on Yugoslavia, aligning Yugoslavia to France gives the Yugoslav units a chance to move during France’s Land Actions.  

Other:  Once Free France is established they make a good controller of any minor countries the Axis might still attack as they will have more action limits to work with.

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ORIGINAL: npilgaard
Looks like a good way of getting a structured overview of all the (complex) aspects of a given major power.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Vital Hexes - Defense
Homeland: Maginot line hexes, Metropolitan France factory and resource hexes, Metropolitan France cities and ports, Alpine passes to Italy.

I fully agree that usually factory, resource, city and port hexes are important for most powers, but I think that in the case of France in the situation of being on the defensive vs. Germany, the all-important factor is to delay the Axis in taking Paris.
So imho the most vital hexes are (besides Paris ) the ones which allows for good defensive positions. Usually that means hexes which allows for a fairly 'straight' defensive line, thus minimizing the number of sides the axis can attack from on any given french front line hex. Other important hexes are cities (especially with factories, if using the optional rule that they cause penalty when attacked) in the front, which can be defended unless unreasonably outgunned, to delay the Germans.

So imho the focus should be shifted from resources, ports etc. to creating best possible defensive line/delaying the Axis.

Regards
Nikolaj

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
As the front line gets closer to Paris, the value of the hexes in the front line increases. that translates as the hexes behind the front line being more valuable than the hexes in the front line itself. However, the value of front line A versus front line B, is measured by the value of all the hexes protected by the front line (inclusive).

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For Russia, I am thinking about how to incorporate the grain of the hex grid into these calculations