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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 9:50:43 AM   
peskpesk


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Status: offline 		Main base Marseille, CV Brest





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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 9:51:18 AM   
peskpesk


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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 9:51:57 AM   
peskpesk


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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 9:52:29 AM   
peskpesk


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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 9:53:01 AM   
peskpesk


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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 11:32:09 AM   
Ullern


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Status: offline 		Again fine choices but I think the TRS in Syria don't need escort. France would want to make that a port to port in the first allied impulse anyway, so the escort is just wasted oil. (Put an escort in the intended target hex for the port to port would be better.)


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Post #: 186
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 2:57:58 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ullern

Again fine choices but I think the TRS in Syria don't need escort. France would want to make that a port to port in the first allied impulse anyway, so the escort is just wasted oil. (Put an escort in the intended target hex for the port to port would be better.)




I sometimes move the transport to Cape St. Vincent rather than to move it to any of the French south coast ports where the TRS can be subject to a port strike on a suprise. It depends a bit on what submarines Italy has drawn. But I usually try my luck against the subs rather than the port strike.

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Post #: 187
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/10/2009 4:11:32 PM   
composer99


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Status: offline 		The French should consider having setup SUBs and/or lousy cruisers for immediate deployment to the Baltic. You will probably lose them unless the weather turns bad right away but they might provide a turn or two of disrupting the sensitive early-war German economy. Cost them a unit or two that they would use against you for the loss of some ships that would probably be Vichy, anyway.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/11/2009 1:42:23 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I've been playing LoC Vichy so long that French fleet deployments are hard to figure out now.

A raid on the Baltic without Vichy chits at stake is definitely worth while, I would send at least three CA on this.

I set up three CA with the TRS in Syria to deliver the INF there to western Algeria on the first French impulse. The TRS does need escorts when it is hanging out there in the West Med after unloading the INF.

I like to set up the CV with three more CA in the southern port in Morocco so it can possibly help out in the Med for a turn or two before internment. Set up there it is not subject to surprise Frog-man or NAV attack. If the French have the range 4 cv plane (2/3 chance), it can really be an edge in a naval battle.

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Post #: 189
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/11/2009 1:50:17 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
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Status: offline 		as for the convoys, route #4 is the best. the CW convoys can bring the Indo-China resource to France, and the French can supply part of the 'front-line' convoy forces to take any early losses. setting up French convoy points around the world seems rather silly; making a convoy plan should be done in conjunction WITH the CW plan, not separately from it.

In any plan it is best for the Allies to have a minimum of one CP in each Med zone, just to supply Malta. These CPs can deliver the Cyprus resource to the UK on the first turn and to France after that. The French oil can be safely stored in Syria and used from there each turn, there is almost no chance the Axis can completely break the world-wide CW convoy net early in the game, and the French get just as many BPs from 9 resources on the 1st turn as they do from 10, so they can just store the oil.

Putting a bigger convoy route through the Med is an option but has to be considered carefully, there are upsides and downsides.


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Post #: 190
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/11/2009 3:38:19 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
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Status: offline 		oh and for the first French move of the TRS, I do slightly prefer to leave it at sea so it can return to base towards Senegal (to eventually deliver the MIL to France), or towards wherever the 'Europe' TERR drawn randomly appears, it it is not in Algeria or Tunisia, to also bring that to France. And I don't scrap any French TRS to maximize the ones delivered to the Free French Force Pool upon Vichy creation, so at times I am dealing with the oldest, 2-range TRS, although I guess I should count up the total French TRS pool and look at how the half-total-quantity breaks to see if maybe I should just go ahead and scrap the old TRS with no change to the eventual Free French pool. ???

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Post #: 191
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:12:55 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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Status: offline 		I promised Steve to make on more pass at the French convoys and go through all the forums post of AI for MWiF – France. Many good suggestions from forum members, and from that work and the earlier I have now compiled it to define 8 possible convoy routes for the French, from which the AIO will chose from.

As always if you have any comments about these convoy routes, we would love to hear them. If nothing else, you could help us decide on their probabilities.

################################################################

French Convoys plans/routes Global war

Route 1: French Convoys for French Resources (Standard).
Route is used to get home Senegal, Iraq and Indo China. Useful if not using Option 48 and Option 31 or if France want to use the Oil for production, or help Commonwealth with Cyprus. 0 CP in reserve.

Route 2: French Convoys for French Resources using options Oil and Saving build points and resources.
Route is used to get home Senegal, Indo China. Useful if using Option 48 and Option 31 or if France does not want to use the Oil for production. The Oil in Iraq is used for reorganization. 2 CP in reserves

Route 3: French Convoys around Africa.
Route is used to get home Senegal and Iraq. Used when Commonwealth and France do not want any convoy chain running through the Mediterranean. 0 CP in reserve.

Route 4: French Convoys in the Mediterranean and front convoys in the Atlantic.
Route is used to get home Senegal, Iraq. French convoys are used as front-line of the Commonwealth convoy pipeline in the Atlantic, letting them take losses when the Axis makes naval sorties.1 CP in reserve.

Route 5: French front Convoys in the Atlantic.
Route is used to get home Senegal. French convoys are used as front-line of the Commonwealth convoy pipeline, letting them take losses when the Axis makes naval sorties. French convoys also assist Commonwealth with over sea supply in the North Sea. Used when Commonwealth and France do not want any convoy chain running through the Mediterranean. 1 CP in reserve.

Route 6: French Convoys in West Africa, the Mediterranean, Australia to Canada.
Route is used to get home Senegal and Iraq and to help Commonwealth with convoying resources from Australia to Canada. When Vichy government is installed many French pacific convoys can be returned to New Caledonia where they have a high chance of becoming Free French. 1 CP in reserve.

Route 7: French front convoys in the West Africa and in the Mediterranean.
Route is used to get home Senegal, Iraq, Indo China. Commonwealth convoys are used to bring back the French RP east of the Mediterranean and France does the same in Mediterranean for Commonwealth helping with Cyprus. French convoys are used as front-line of the Commonwealth convoy pipeline, letting them take losses when the Axis makes naval sorties. 0 CP in reserve.

Route 8: French convoys in the Mediterranean and front convoys in the Atlantic high risk areas.
Route is used to get home Iraq and Senegal. Useful plan if late Italian entry is expected. Almost half of the French convoys are in the Bay of Biscay and in the other half North Atlantic. The French convoys are used as front-line of the Commonwealth convoy pipeline, letting them take losses when the Axis makes naval sorties. Commonwealth convoys are used to assist bring back the Senegal. 0 CP in reserve.

Base Convoy Deployment %
Route 1 25%
Route 2 15%
Route 3 5%
Route 4 13%
Route 5 12%
Route 6 15%
Route 7 10%
Route 8 5%

Optional rules that might affect Convoy Deployment %
• In the presence of the enemy
• Options Oil and Saving build points and resources (need transport home Iraq?)
• Rough Seas
• Convoys In Flame
• Oil tankers
• Cruisers in flames




< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/19/2009 8:27:06 PM >

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:13:27 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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Status: offline 		Route 1: French Convoys for French Resources (Standard).




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:14:04 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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Status: offline 		Route 2: French Convoys for French Resources using options Oil and Saving build points and resources.




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:14:37 PM   
peskpesk


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Status: offline 		Route 3: French Convoys around Africa.




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:15:11 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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Status: offline 		Route 4: French Convoys in the Mediterranean and front convoys in the Atlantic.




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:15:54 PM   
peskpesk


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Status: offline 		Route 5: French front Convoys in the Atlantic.




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:16:34 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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Status: offline 		Route 6: French Convoys in West Africa, the Mediterranean, Australia to Canada.




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:17:21 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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Status: offline 		Route 7: French front convoys in the West Africa and in the Mediterranean.




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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/19/2009 8:18:10 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Route 8: French convoys in the Mediterranean and front convoys in the Atlantic high risk areas.





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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 6:21:22 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Route 6: French Convoys in West Africa, the Mediterranean, Australia to Canada.




I did not check that your CP routes complied with the following, but maybe you did...

Remember that all ships at sea, including CP, must have a port in range where they could return to base, even if they never return to base. If they don't, they are lost, so any CP route need to have its CP pass in range from a port where they could return to base.

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Post #: 201
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 7:55:23 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Route 6: French Convoys in West Africa, the Mediterranean, Australia to Canada.




I did not check that your CP routes complied with the following, but maybe you did...

Remember that all ships at sea, including CP, must have a port in range where they could return to base, even if they never return to base. If they don't, they are lost, so any CP route need to have its CP pass in range from a port where they could return to base.


Everybody is in range of a French port , I can't set them up like this otherwize.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 8:09:03 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
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Status: offline 		Assuming the U.S.A. doesn’t intern the French CV and the French Navy is in the respective ports shown at time Vichy is declared.
 
quote:
17.2 Determine control
 
Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France
 
Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia 10
French West Africa 9–10
Syria 9–10
Indo-China 9–10
Madagascar 8–10
All Asian map minors & territories 7–10
French Equatorial Africa 3–10
All Pacific map minors & territories 2–10
All other territories & minors 9–10
 
* ~ Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan French port.
Each hex France controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of:
(a) The major power occupying the hex (if any); or if none
(b) That other major power or minor country.
 
Free France must now choose one of its remaining minor countries as its new home nation. If Free France controls no minor countries, she suffers the effect of complete conquest (see 13.7.1) immediately.
 

 
Plan - Main base Marseille, CV Brest - Minus 2 to die roll. Possible Free French in: Madagascar, Asian map minors & territories, French Equatorial Africa, Pacific map minors & territories, and other territories & minors.
 
 
Plan - Two main bases Marseille and Brest - Minus 6 to die roll. Possible Free French in: French Equatorial Africa and Pacific map minors & territories.
 
 
Plan – Oran - Minus 16 to die roll. No Free French.
 
 
Plan – Main base Marseille risk CV – Standard die roll for Free French.
 
 
Plan – Main base Morocco and Brest - Minus 12 to die roll. No Free French.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/20/2009 8:13:53 PM >

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 9:19:08 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Assuming the U.S.A. doesn’t intern the French CV and the French Navy is in the respective ports shown at time Vichy is declared.
 
quote:
17.2 Determine control
 
Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France
 
Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia 10
French West Africa 9–10
Syria 9–10
Indo-China 9–10
Madagascar 8–10
All Asian map minors & territories 7–10
French Equatorial Africa 3–10
All Pacific map minors & territories 2–10
All other territories & minors 9–10
 
* ~ Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan French port.
Each hex France controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of:
(a) The major power occupying the hex (if any); or if none
(b) That other major power or minor country.
 
Free France must now choose one of its remaining minor countries as its new home nation. If Free France controls no minor countries, she suffers the effect of complete conquest (see 13.7.1) immediately.
 

 
Plan - Main base Marseille, CV Brest - Minus 2 to die roll. Possible Free French in: Madagascar, Asian map minors & territories, French Equatorial Africa, Pacific map minors & territories, and other territories & minors.
 
 
Plan - Two main bases Marseille and Brest - Minus 6 to die roll. Possible Free French in: French Equatorial Africa and Pacific map minors & territories.
 
 
Plan – Oran - Minus 16 to die roll. No Free French.
 
 
Plan – Main base Marseille risk CV – Standard die roll for Free French.
 
 
Plan – Main base Morocco and Brest - Minus 12 to die roll. No Free French.


The AI must of course plan to move any of the BB and CV outside of mainland France to a French port before there is any risk of Vichy beeing declared. Often you can even do this after Paris has been captued but, of corse, before the turn ends.

The modification for BB or CV outside France can be no more than of minus 2. This is regardless if there is only one or all battleships outside of France.

Some of the setups have all the BBs and the CV in France from the start. The AI should of course plan to use the navy in the setups where the battleships are outside France.

I am sure that all contributions on how the French AI should set up its units are appreciated.

< Message edited by Orm -- 7/20/2009 9:26:25 PM >

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Post #: 204
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 9:39:35 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		You are correct that France receives minus if the on-map French CVs or BBs are in not currently in a Metropolitan French ports, but remember that CA does not count and the -2 modifier apples if any CVs or BBs, not for each CVs or BBs.

You are also correct that for the AIO to linger outside Metropolitan French ports when Axis draws near Paris is a bad move. The plan is that the AIO will relocate the fleet in time to avoid the -2 modifier.

How would you like to setup the French navy? And are there any setups you like/dislike?


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Post #: 205
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 10:21:48 PM   
composer99


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From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Extraneous:

Brest, Bordeaux, and the ports on the French Atlantic seaboard will not accrue penalties for the formation of Free France.

At any rate, France has anywhere from 3-6 turns to get the BBs and (if not already sunk or interned, the Béarn) to ports in France. Chances are a combined or naval can be spared in the winter to make this happen.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 10:22:56 PM   
composer99


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From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I am sure this has been mentioned before in this thread, but in RAW Vichy (the Vichy rule being implemented for MWiF) France has little reason to preserve its battlefleet and should use it aggressively in an effort to grind down the Italian navy before France falls.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 10:42:31 PM   
brian brian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Optional rules that might affect Convoy Deployment %
• In the presence of the enemy
• Options Oil and Saving build points and resources (need transport home Iraq?)
• Rough Seas
• Convoys In Flame
• Oil tankers
• Cruisers in flames



I hope the AI programming expands the list of optionals that are required or definitely excluded to help reduce the size of the task to program the AI. I know option #20 is definitely excluded but trying to program in making decisions on 71 others seems like a whole lot of extra work.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/20/2009 11:59:17 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I am sure this has been mentioned before in this thread, but in RAW Vichy (the Vichy rule being implemented for MWiF) France has little reason to preserve its battlefleet and should use it aggressively in an effort to grind down the Italian navy before France falls.

Very true. Sunk and damaged BBs do not generate the -2 DRM even if 100% are sunk or damaged.

The -2 is a very serious issue. It can make the difference between having or not having a Free France. Without it, the chances are about 6% of no Free France. With it, the odds increase substantially that there will be no Free France.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/21/2009 1:15:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

You are correct that France receives minus if the on-map French CVs or BBs are in not currently in a Metropolitan French ports, but remember that CA does not count and the -2 modifier apples if any CVs or BBs, not for each CVs or BBs.

You are also correct that for the AIO to linger outside Metropolitan French ports when Axis draws near Paris is a bad move. The plan is that the AIO will relocate the fleet in time to avoid the -2 modifier.

How would you like to setup the French navy? And are there any setups you like/dislike?



Thank you for pointing out my error. Liike others posting on this forum it shows the group I play with had missread the rules.


Plan - Main base Marseille, CV Brest
Plan - Two main bases Marseille and Brest
Plan – Oran
Plan – Main base Morocco and Brest

Minus 2 to die roll. Possible Free French in: Madagascar, Asian map minors & territories, French Equatorial Africa, Pacific map minors & territories, and other territories & minors.


Plan – Main base Marseille risk CV – Standard die roll for Free French.



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/21/2009 1:23:26 PM >

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