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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/18/2010 6:05:28 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patience

I'm new to the site and am confused as to what rules are currently being used in this discussion. I have the Final edition companion CD with the complete rules. Should I be using the RaW rules to reference the play of the computer version in development?

The rules that form then base for MWIF is found at: http://www.a-d-g.com.au/download/WiF-RaW-7-aug-04.doc

This FAQ is also used: http://www.a-d-g.com.au/download/WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_Jul_2009.pdf

From these Steve has made Rules As Coded that has a few deviations from the WIF rules.

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Post #: 241

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/18/2010 6:25:25 PM

Patience

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I have the RaW rules now thank you and is there a way to get the RaC version?

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Post #: 242

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/18/2010 6:55:17 PM

Anendrue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patience

I have the RaW rules now thank you and is there a way to get the RaC version?

Not yet, unless you are on the beta team.

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Post #: 243

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/18/2010 6:59:51 PM

Patience

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Thanks abj,

I kinda figured something like that. Any Idea how to get on the team?

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Post #: 244

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/19/2010 3:03:58 AM

Anendrue

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In the past Steve announced when he had a need for additional beta testers.

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Post #: 245

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/19/2010 4:26:22 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In the past Steve announced when he had a need for additional beta testers.

That is what I'll do again if I come to the point where I think I need more beta testers.

My standard operating procedure is to post an announcement in this forum and then give people ~10 days to respond. So if you check in once a week, you won't miss the announcement. I give no preference to those who respond quickly - the criteria are more practical than that (and part of the announcement). Rather than go into detail, I'll simply say that one criterion is whether a person is active in the forum (posts interesting stuff and otherwise involved).

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Post #: 246

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 5/19/2010 1:33:50 PM

Patience

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Thats good to know. Thank you Steve and ABJ for your help

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Post #: 247

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/28/2011 9:47:16 AM

peskpesk

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Surrender Metropolitan France?

Under which conditions is this good idea and during which game turn, impulse?

I will throw out some examples:
� French production is reduced to zero?
� Number of French as land units in Metropolitan France is reduced below 6?
� France is nearly beaten and US Entry needed for ex gear up?

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Post #: 248

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 7:29:12 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Surrender Metropolitan France?

Under which conditions is this good idea and during which game turn, impulse?

I will throw out some examples:
� French production is reduced to zero?
� Number of French as land units in Metropolitan France is reduced below 6?
� France is nearly beaten and US Entry needed for ex gear up?

If mainland France has lost all its ports when Vichy is declared then it is impossible for the French BB and CV to return to a mainland French port. This is bad for Free France when the administrations groups are rolled for.

So surrendering before all ports are lost is often a good idea. This can be tough to predict since you need to surrender the turn before the ports are lost since, unfortunately, the Vichy creation step is before the surrender step.

Edit: 17.2 Determine control
Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes
controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains
controlled by Vichy France.
Free-French Chart
Administration group Die
Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia 10
French West Africa 9-10
Syria 9-10
Indo-China 9-10
Madagascar 8-10
All Asian minors & territories 7-10
French Equatorial Africa 3-10
All Pacific Ocean minors & territories 2-10
All other territories & minors 9-10
Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan French
port.

< Message edited by Orm -- 8/29/2011 7:38:20 AM >

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Post #: 249

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 3:27:18 PM

composer99

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Surrendering France is tricky. Per the rules (13.7.6) at least half of France's printed factory stacks must be enemy-controlled.

As per the screenshot map, France has 15 factory stacks. Paris has 3 stacks, or 20% of the total.

Basically, Germany would have to break out south of Paris towards Lyons, without taking Paris, in order for France to be in a position to surrender.

Edit: Think I corrected the link to the map of France.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 8/29/2011 10:21:49 PM >

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Post #: 250

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 4:09:19 PM

Joseignacio

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What about Paris, Lille, Strasburg, ROuen?

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Post #: 251

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 4:56:50 PM

Extraneous

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Just a FYI.

quote:

Original: WIFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

13.7.6 Surrender
During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn�t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

An interesting counter to NOT offering France Vichy (a previous discussion).

But why surrender

No Vichy, No surrender means:

The Allies can still use French naval and air units on the map, which have their own action points. So what if there are no French land units in France.

Only CV and BB have to be in a Metropolitan French port.

The Allies have control of the French resources outside of France.

Oil trade agreement
Iraq, Mosul

Other Resources
Algeria
New Caledonia
French Indo China, Hanoi
Senegal

Except for the oil (for the French fleet) lend lease the resources to the Allies.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 8/29/2011 5:15:34 PM >

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Post #: 252

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 6:23:08 PM

brian brian

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The Germans may have dreamed of an Alpine Redoubt at the end of the war, but the French can actually pull this off in Toulouse, one of the most difficult hexes to take in the game. A German who declines the Vichy offer can begin to feel very foolish indeed if the BEF shifts to cover Bordeaux, a few French factories are railed to the south-east, and French MTN units appear on the production spiral....

so in other words, a similar pile of thought needs to be invested in these decisions for the German AI

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Post #: 253

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 6:43:56 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Just a FYI.

quote:

Original: WIFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

13.7.6 Surrender
During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn�t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

An interesting counter to NOT offering France Vichy (a previous discussion).

But why surrender

No Vichy, No surrender means:

The Allies can still use French naval and air units on the map, which have their own action points. So what if there are no French land units in France.

Only CV and BB have to be in a Metropolitan French port.

The Allies have control of the French resources outside of France.

Oil trade agreement
Iraq, Mosul

Other Resources
Algeria
New Caledonia
French Indo China, Hanoi
Senegal

Except for the oil (for the French fleet) lend lease the resources to the Allies.

Axis can capture all the mainland French ports and then declare Vichy. Or they can go for Spain and when Axis has plenty of troops in Spain they declare Vichy.

That is two reasons that might make the Allies considering surrendering France.

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Post #: 254

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 8:35:55 PM

composer99

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Some remarks:

French land & air units in France are all destroyed if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

French naval units in France are forced to rebase or overrun if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

The oil stops going to France if (a) France is conquered or has surrendered and (b) someone other than France controls Syria.

Also, a French surrender results in an incomplete conquest as long as France has at least one friendly aligned minor still on the map, so any French land, air & naval units outside France are still useable by the French player & Allies in the event of conquest or surrender.

I think surrender is far preferable to Vichy, so if Germany delays installing Vichy France and it does not look like the French can set up a final redoubt in the Bordeaux-Toulouse sector, they should surrender if given the opportunity.

The exception to this is if the Axis have built up to effectively campaign in the Med; in that case having the N. African colonies & Syria go Vichy is preferable if the Allies cannot muster an adequate defence.

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Post #: 255

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 9:08:53 PM

Extraneous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Axis can capture all the mainland French ports and then declare Vichy. Or they can go for Spain and when Axis has plenty of troops in Spain they declare Vichy.

That is two reasons that might make the Allies considering surrendering France.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Some remarks:

French land & air units in France are all destroyed if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

French naval units in France are forced to rebase or overrun if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

The oil stops going to France if (a) France is conquered or has surrendered and (b) someone other than France controls Syria.

Also, a French surrender results in an incomplete conquest as long as France has at least one friendly aligned minor still on the map, so any French land, air & naval units outside France are still useable by the French player & Allies in the event of conquest or surrender.

I think surrender is far preferable to Vichy, so if Germany delays installing Vichy France and it does not look like the French can set up a final redoubt in the Bordeaux-Toulouse sector, they should surrender if given the opportunity.

The exception to this is if the Axis have built up to effectively campaign in the Med; in that case having the N. African colonies & Syria go Vichy is preferable if the Allies cannot muster an adequate defense.

Those are all good points for declaring Vichy.

So are mine.

But remember the previous discussion was on Not declaring Vichy France.

When would you surrender France when the Axis has not declared Vichy?

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Post #: 256

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/29/2011 10:19:56 PM

composer99

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Does not compute. France does not get to decide whether Vichy is installed or not. Orm & I are describing scenarios where Germany (or Italy, if they are the ones to occupy Paris, gamey as that might be) have for whatever reason not installed Vichy. Under those circumstances the French may wish to surrender. How is that not a discussion on when to surrender France?

Anyway:

- France can surrender only if at least half of its printed factory stacks (8 out of 15) are occupied.
- If the Axis take Paris, they will usually also occupy Lille, Metz, & Rouen, which is enough factories out to surrender.
- If the Axis do not take Paris, they will need to occupy at least three other factory stacks somewhere in France, which can be rather difficult (not impossible).

As long as France has lost 8 out of 15 factory stacks and (in the case where Paris is occupied) the Axis skip the installation of Vichy, the French AIO has to look at the reinforcements coming, see if they can form a redoubt somewhere, and hold out for another 1-2 turns. If so, they can delay surrendering for at least one more turn; if not, they should probably consider proceeding with the surrender.

Also, in any case, if it is the last turn of a year and it looks like the Germans will be in a position to conquer France sometime in the following year, the French should consider surrendering then to preserve their future force pool(s).

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 4:59:33 PM

Extraneous

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quote:

When would you surrender France when the Axis has not declared Vichy?

The Axis takes Paris, Lille, Metz, and Rouen, which are enough factories for surrender.

The Axis choose not declare Vichy France.

Under these conditions when you are playing France what conditions would make you surrender France

Clear enough for you now

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Post #: 258

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 7:26:55 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

When would you surrender France when the Axis has not declared Vichy?

The Axis takes Paris, Lille, Metz, and Rouen, which are enough factories for surrender.

The Axis choose not declare Vichy France.

Under these conditions when you are playing France what conditions would make you surrender France

Clear enough for you now

That is one subset of the conditions Orm and Composer have been discussing.

Regardless of how it happens, and which factories are axis-controlled, you can't surrender until you only control 6 of the French factories (because France has 14, not 15). It is a French decision and sometimes choosing to fight is better and sometimes it's not. That is what they've been talking about.

Do you have anything to offer to the discussion?

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Post #: 259

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 7:50:56 PM

composer99

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I did miscount total factories, for which I apologize.

However, per the rules the number of factories the French need to control is less than half which means that the number of factories the Axis needs to secure (8) remains the same.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 9:41:57 PM

peskpesk

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Here is a rough example of how a Surrender rule for France could look.

Surrender rule for France

Precondition:

- Euro Axis controls at least 8 French printed Factories.
- France has at least one possible new home country.

Base: 10%.

Modifications:
� For each additional Euro Axis controlled printed French factory + 5 %
� For each French land unit below 10 in Metropolitan France + 5%
� For each French land unit above 10 in Metropolitan France - 5%
� For each French controlled railed factory in Metropolitan France - 3%
� For each CW/US land unit in Metropolitan France - 2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled minor port in Metropolitan France +1%
� For each Euro Axis controlled major port in Metropolitan France +2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled resource in Metropolitan France +1%
� Game turn Nov/Dec + 10 %
� For each Year > 1940 � 5%
� US entry is low + 10%
� Germany at war with USSR -10%
� Germany at war with USA -10%
� France controls Toulouse -5 %

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/30/2011 9:45:15 PM >

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Post #: 261

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 9:50:18 PM

Orm

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Maybe something like this?

- France controls Paris and it has at least 12 factors in defence after reinforcement -5%

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Post #: 262

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 10:00:09 PM

composer99

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I would suggest adding a line for Axis control of Paris, something like +10% or +15%.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 10:52:48 PM

petracelli

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Gents, just passing. Are views still being sort on views for the AI for France?

Cheers

Phil

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Post #: 264

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/30/2011 11:45:19 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Gents, just passing. Are views still being sort on views for the AI for France?

Cheers

Phil

Yes. Peter is currently working on defining a set of strategic plans for the AI Opponent for France. A lot of that has already been figured out and the question of when to Surrender is the last missing piece. But none of those decisions is irrevocable.

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Post #: 265

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/31/2011 1:03:43 AM

Extraneous

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This has merit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Here is a rough example of how a Surrender rule for France could look.

Surrender rule for France

Precondition:

- Euro Axis controls at least 8 French printed Factories.
- France has at least one possible new home country.

Base: 10%.

Modifications:
� For each additional Euro Axis controlled printed French factory + 5 %
� For each French land unit below 10 in Metropolitan France + 5%
� For each French land unit above 10 in Metropolitan France - 5%
� For each French controlled railed factory in Metropolitan France - 3%
� For each CW/US land unit in Metropolitan France - 2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled minor port in Metropolitan France +1%
� For each Euro Axis controlled major port in Metropolitan France +2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled resource in Metropolitan France +1%
� Game turn Nov/Dec + 10 %
� For each Year > 1940 � 5%
� US entry is low + 10%
� Germany at war with USSR -10%
� Germany at war with USA -10%
� France controls Toulouse -5 %

Please clarify:

What does �Euro Axis� mean? (Only Axis countries located on the European map?)
What does �France has at least one possible new home country� mean? (Are you referring to incomplete conquest versus complete conquest?)
What does �US entry is low� mean? (A low chance that the USA will enter the war?)

quote:

Surrender rule for France using a d10 for those that prefer a d10 instead of a d100.

Preconditions:

- Euro Axis controls at least 8 French printed Factories.
- France has at least one possible new home country.

Base: + 1.0

Modifications:
� For each additional Euro Axis controlled printed French factory + 0.5
� For each Euro Axis controlled minor port in Metropolitan France + 0.1
� For each Euro Axis controlled major port in Metropolitan France + 0.2
� For each Euro Axis controlled resource in Metropolitan France + 0.1
� For each French controlled railed factory in Metropolitan France - 0.3
� France controls Toulouse - 0.5
� For each French land unit below 10 in Metropolitan France + 0.5
� For each French land unit above 10 in Metropolitan France - 0.5
� For each CW/US land unit in Metropolitan France - 0.2
� Germany at war with USSR - 1.0
� Germany at war with USA � 1.0
� US entry is low + 1.0
� Game turn Nov/Dec + 1.0
� For each Year > 1940 � 0.5

quote:

Just a FYI:

Global war (see 24.4.7) French land units in Metropolitan France at setup
2x Leaders
1x Motorized Corps
4x Infantry Corps
2x Garrison Corps
1x Cavalry Corps
1x Divisions
3x Guns

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 8/31/2011 1:13:04 AM >

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Post #: 266

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 8/31/2011 4:18:23 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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EuroAxis is a term I created to describe Germany and Italy. At times Italy may be conquered, leaving Germany as the only 'member' of the EuroAxis (or vice-a-versa). When writing code for the AIO, EuroAxis is a convenient 'shorthand' term.

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Post #: 267

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 9/1/2011 9:50:35 AM

paulderynck

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What does �France has at least one possible new home country� mean? (Are you referring to incomplete conquest versus complete conquest?)

Yes, France would almost always be incompletely conquered if it surrenders, because it has so many colonies to make into a new home country (and it can keep moving, too)

What does �US entry is low� mean? (A low chance that the USA will enter the war?)

This is somewhat subjective. There are a number of threads on US Entry here. It involves the axis trying to estimate where the U.S. is on the "It's War" chart. The fewer entry chits the US has, the less likely it can successfully attempt a Declaration of War. Also important are which US Entry Options the U.S. has so far selected in the game.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 9/1/2011 9:51:06 AM >

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Post #: 268

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 9/1/2011 11:29:35 AM

peskpesk

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After your comments I have modified the Surrender rule for France suggestion, new version.

Surrender rule for France

Precondition:
- Euro Axis controls at least 8 French printed Factories.
- France controls at least one controls colony to use as new home country

Base: 10%.

Modifications:
� For each additional Euro Axis controlled printed French factory + 5 %
� For each French land unit below 10 in Metropolitan France + 5%
� For each French land unit above 10 in Metropolitan France - 5%
� For each French controlled railed factory in Metropolitan France - 3%
� For each CW/US land unit in Metropolitan France - 2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled minor port in Metropolitan France +1%
� For each Euro Axis controlled major port in Metropolitan France +2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled resource in Metropolitan France +1%
� Game turn Nov/Dec + 10 %
� For each Year > 1940 � 5%
� US entry is low* + 10%
� Germany at war with USSR -10%
� Germany at war with USA -10%
� France controls Toulouse -5 %
� France controls Paris -5 %
� Germany controls Paris +10 %

* if important US Entry Options has not been able to be chosen due to low US entry OR if its low chance that the USA can declare war due to low US entry.

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Post #: 269

RE: AI for MWiF - France - 9/1/2011 3:03:48 PM

Extraneous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

After your comments I have modified the Surrender rule for France suggestion, new version.

Surrender rule for France

Precondition:
- Euro Axis controls at least 8 French printed Factories.
- France controls at least one controls colony to use as new home country

Base: 10%.

Modifications:
� For each additional Euro Axis controlled printed French factory + 5 %
� For each French land unit below 10 in Metropolitan France + 5%
� For each French land unit above 10 in Metropolitan France - 5%
� For each French controlled railed factory in Metropolitan France - 3%
� For each CW/US land unit in Metropolitan France - 2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled minor port in Metropolitan France +1%
� For each Euro Axis controlled major port in Metropolitan France +2%
� For each Euro Axis controlled resource in Metropolitan France +1%
� Game turn Nov/Dec + 10 %
� For each Year > 1940 � 5%
� US entry is low* + 10%
� Germany at war with USSR -10%
� Germany at war with USA -10%
� France controls Toulouse -5 %
� France controls Paris -5 %
� Germany controls Paris +10 %

* if important US Entry Options has not been able to be chosen due to low US entry OR if its low chance that the USA can declare war due to low US entry.

How about...

quote:

13.7.1 Conquest
Now choose a new home country for the units of the conquered home country. Conquered Commonwealth home countries can pick another Commonwealth home country (e.g. if Britain is conquered, you could pick Canada as the new home country for British units). Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls.

- France controls at least one colony to use as new home country (aligned minor home country not colony).
changed to
- The surrender of France would result in incomplete conquest.

and

� US entry is low* + 10%
changed to
� The US entry level against the Euro Axis > than 24 and US war number against the Euro Axis < 5 * + 10%

On the �9.4 IT�S WAR CHART� cross-index the US entry level against the Euro Axis with the US tension level against the Euro Axis to find the US war number against the Euro Axis.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 9/1/2011 4:47:25 PM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to peskpesk)

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RE: AI for MWiF - France