Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: cockney
having a think about what the USSR ai should do.
1 historical attack eastern Poland and the balticks.
2 demand Finnish territories, if denied attack Finnland (winter war)
3 demand Moldova
4 attack Bulgaria
5 defend the Motherland with fighting withdrawals untill stong enough to counter attack.
ai should be able to determine at what stages to do each of these depending on the run of play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
Denmark gambit, is it worth it?
(...)
What do you think?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
What - no unit in Petsamo ?
Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

A third version for 1941.
================
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1941
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (36,52) Forest hex
1 MOT, (36,52) Forest hex
1 HQI, Viipuri Forest hex, minor port
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 FTR, (36,50) Clear hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
1 INF DIV, Viipuri
===============

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
What about a Soviet attack north of Lake Ladoga?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Any danger of invasion from the sea of the hex with the Fokker D XXI in it?

Regards

quote:

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

Isn´t it possible to invade Helsinki?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

Yes, I agree. If USSR get that major port Finland will IMHO have a huge red problem on there neck.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
This said, I'd personaly prefer to have a land unit there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Another condition could be whether Germany has taken Norway. In that case, iirc, they are allowed to rail units to Finland.
If Germany has units to spare (not heavily engaged elsewhere), that would make Oulu important - if even a DIV invades there the Germans are stopped, so placing a Finnish DIV would probably be a good idea (or otoh - maybe the USSR can just invade further north cutting the rail anyway - but at least then they won't have a port upthere)

Other things to consider:
- where is the USSR TRS located - in the Black Sea or Leningrad. If in Leningrad then a DIV-invasion of an unprotected Finnish port followed by debark next turn can make the situation worse than just a single DIV in the back
- does USSR have ships with invasion forces in the Baltic already. When not active and with combined impulses only 1 naval unit can move each turn, limiting the invasion threat - but if a few SCSs with DIVs are available then several landing sites are possible.
- are USSR active - in that case the entire fleet can move on the invasion impulse
- is it winter - in that case the Lake is often frozen
- is the non-ZoC on surprise optional rules used - as with all minors, that would weaken the defense somewhat making invasions/paradrops/moving across the lake during winter easier (and especially the '39 setup needs to be modified)
- is Germany prepared to help, and are the German TRS/AMPH available - in that case perhaps a second unit in Viipuri (or maybe even any unit) is not necessary, as Germans can be debarked there during the following impulse (if port is not closed due to winter)

Also, maybe there are a couple of setup variants that are fairly equal in strength - than I think it would be a good idea to include them all and then have one selected random, so the USSR player won't know the setup with 100% certainty - that will provide him with to great an advantage, imho. So maybe 2-3 setups can be devised for each scenario - or is that to much work? After all, there are lots of minors to decide setup for, and lots of conditions for each setup. Otoh, it is fun to consider setups, and most players will give it a try, I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Another condition could be whether Germany has taken Norway. In that case, iirc, they are allowed to rail units to Finland.
If Germany has units to spare (not heavily engaged elsewhere), that would make Oulu important - if even a DIV invades there the Germans are stopped, so placing a Finnish DIV would probably be a good idea (or otoh - maybe the USSR can just invade further north cutting the rail anyway - but at least then they won't have a port upthere)

Other things to consider:
- where is the USSR TRS located - in the Black Sea or Leningrad. If in Leningrad then a DIV-invasion of an unprotected Finnish port followed by debark next turn can make the situation worse than just a single DIV in the back
- does USSR have ships with invasion forces in the Baltic already. When not active and with combined impulses only 1 naval unit can move each turn, limiting the invasion threat - but if a few SCSs with DIVs are available then several landing sites are possible.
- are USSR active - in that case the entire fleet can move on the invasion impulse
- is it winter - in that case the Lake is often frozen
- is the non-ZoC on surprise optional rules used - as with all minors, that would weaken the defense somewhat making invasions/paradrops/moving across the lake during winter easier (and especially the '39 setup needs to be modified)
- is Germany prepared to help, and are the German TRS/AMPH available - in that case perhaps a second unit in Viipuri (or maybe even any unit) is not necessary, as Germans can be debarked there during the following impulse (if port is not closed due to winter)

Also, maybe there are a couple of setup variants that are fairly equal in strength - than I think it would be a good idea to include them all and then have one selected random, so the USSR player won't know the setup with 100% certainty - that will provide him with to great an advantage, imho. So maybe 2-3 setups can be devised for each scenario - or is that to much work? After all, there are lots of minors to decide setup for, and lots of conditions for each setup. Otoh, it is fun to consider setups, and most players will give it a try, I think.

Yes.

I know that there are a lot of possibilites for setting up Finland, which is one of the reasons I like analyzing it now. As I said before, if we can work out the details for setting up Finland, then (1) the data structure for selecting and placing units, (2) how we handle optional rules, and (3) how we handle numerous other game conditions will be worked out.

I have two goals: get the AIO language defined so it is robust enough to accommodate all this stuff, and (2) decide how to set up Finland. They really go hand-in-hand.

Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

[For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland, so the first German corps unit to land in Finland will have to come by TRS/AMPH or a div via SCS (barring extremely unlikely mid-war scenarios with longer range German ATR available). Just wanted to clear that up, wouldn't have a lot of impact on a Finnish set-up I would think - Finland should most likely have higher priorities than keeping the rail link to Sweden open; it would be useful for Germany but not completely essential either. One situation where that may not be true is if the USSR were to attack Finland shortly before Barbarossa was due to launch and the Germans would love to rail in to Finland, but that is another extremely unlikely situation.]


You might also want to think about 'offensive' Finnish set-ups for the start of Barbarossa...

With AMPH rules in play Helsinki is fairly safe. With a Finnish ZoC on it, the Russians can only get a 2:2 on it for a very low % +2 attack with only one unit on a surprise impulse that is the Russian's first move of the turn. On the 2nd impulse the USSR could add the Engineer division and go to 3:3 = +2 > +3 for notional, but with two units attacking there is a somewhat better chance of success, although still somewhere south of 25% I would think? But by the 2nd impulse there could be a German unit covering Helsinki anyway. So I'd rather cover more landing sites with ZoCs than use a unit in Helsinki. (unless Russia has PARAs or something).
Perhaps one + higher if the Russians moved out a Shore Bombardment ship before the DoW impulse, or with such a telegraph move or even 2 such they could raise the surprise attack all the way to 4.5:2 = +5.5 with 2 invading units and then you might want to cover Helsinki, IF the Russians made those advance naval moves.

So a setup variable could be the presence of loaded Russian SCS or an unloaded BB in the Baltic Sea prior to DoW.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Perhaps I could translate a bunch of these 'ifs' into what the best attack odds are for the USSR invading/paradropping into Helsinki?

That could take into consideration shore bombardment, ground support, and even the possiblity of using a full INF army from a TRS if not playing with AMPHs.

Let's assume the AIO can work out the best attack the USSR can make in the first impulse after its DOW. At what level of odds should the Finns put a real unit into Helsinki, instead of just a ZOC?