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RE: Air Combat Mod with test results

 
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RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/13/2005 7:23:54 AM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Looks very good so far !! What do you think about increasing accuracy of MG-only armed planes (Nik-mod style) to make them to have at least some success against heavy bombers..meaning turning back planes by damaging them ? Or is that needed ?


That is a good question. I am liking the results so far, but it is hard for me to be objective.

The Oscar and Nate were able to bring down Hudsons and Blienhems and the Wirraway was able to down the Ki-49. The Oscar had problems downing the B17 and B25. This is not really that bad a result. I think more testing needs to be run with the Nate, Oscar, Buffalo etc. but looking back on the data the Mod is looking good to me.

Another reason I am reluctant to make modifications to just one weapon type instead of across the board changes is avoid balance issues. The goal of the mod is to prolong air supremicy battles by reducing casualties and making the effect of being out classed technology wise less decisive. If I can do this with generic modifications to all the data with out targeting specific weapons or platforms I can avoid introducing a bias and make the Mod more acceptable to all camps. Also if the Mod does work it would be easier to apply the same changes to other Mods.

I am a believer in simple solutions. If the solution starts getting more complicated, then maybe it is not the solution after all.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 91
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/13/2005 2:56:31 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Well, Oscar should have problems downing B17 and B25 etc.... Buffalos are fine since they have more of those large caliber MGs and so not that big issue.

I agree that simple solutions are usually best. Only problem I can foresee is that heavy bombers might start to dominate the game and IJ would have very big problem defending bases against air raids.

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 92
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/13/2005 4:10:49 PM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Only problem I can foresee is that heavy bombers might start to dominate the game and IJ would have very big problem defending bases against air raids.


The heavy bombers may require a different solution. My hope is that the reduced bomb loads would help address this issue. It does have an effect, is it enough is the question.

I think the heavy bombers, like the rapid base grabing by the Japanese in the early game is something that should be player controled or house ruled. I am not sure a Mod alone can fix these issues as they are as much a matter of player approach as anything else.

< Message edited by DFalcon -- 12/13/2005 4:11:30 PM >

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 93
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/14/2005 6:00:26 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

I agree that simple solutions are usually best. Only problem I can foresee is that heavy bombers might start to dominate the game and IJ would have very big problem defending bases against air raids.


In Uncommon Valor we used to say that "the best fighter plane is the B-17" ! Players would send them just to beat up CAP.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 94
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/14/2005 6:05:21 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

The heavy bombers may require a different solution. My hope is that the reduced bomb loads would help address this issue. It does have an effect, is it enough is the question.


That is a really really bad idea. Not because it might not work, but because it is bad data - an inherantly wrong way to deal with software - in particular in a historical game. You are misrepresenting the truth to anyone who looks at the plane data - and thus teaching falsehoods.

It is one thing to mess with the accuracy of a weapon - or anything like that - hidden from view and completely a function of assumptions in the first place. It is quite another to mess with visible data, and data which inherantly should be verifiable from reference books. This is the wrong solution to a problem - however well intentioned.

I have problems with errors in WITP - both factual errors and modeling errors - as everyone knows. I favor MAJOR changes to fix them and I refuse to play until the severe ones are fixed. But introducing MORE factual errors is not really a move in the right direction.

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 95
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/15/2005 12:51:44 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline 		I still like the look of these tests. I don't think I will push for the introduction of these mods into the current CHS update, as they should be tested more thoroughly first, and I don't think there is an agreement to do so, but I plan on adding them to a CHS "experimental" variant, along with the ideas I posted in the thread about eliminating the Zero bonus. I then hope to playtest the changes in PBEM.

I would like to ask a favour - is it possible to run another test in relation to a current "hot topic" - air to air tests between Zeroes (A6M2, A6M3) and Wildcats (F4F-3, F4F-4)?

Thanks,
Andrew

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 96
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/15/2005 5:10:10 AM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
Joined: 11/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I would like to ask a favour - is it possible to run another test in relation to a current "hot topic" - air to air tests between Zeroes (A6M2, A6M3) and Wildcats (F4F-3, F4F-4)?

Thanks,
Andrew


Test #1 and #2 were A6M2 vs the F4F-4. Also test #11 and #12 the uber cap test was this match up. I was happy with the results as it made it a pretty even fight, at least more even that the stock data. I would like to run more test with this match up as it really is the heart of the conflict for me.

I will be away until January 9th and will pick up the testing then. I am pleased with how things are looking with this Mod, but more testing will tell.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 97
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/15/2005 6:33:35 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
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From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DFalcon
Test #1 and #2 were A6M2 vs the F4F-4. Also test #11 and #12 the uber cap test was this match up. I was happy with the results as it made it a pretty even fight, at least more even that the stock data. I would like to run more test with this match up as it really is the heart of the conflict for me.


That will teach me not to review the thread before posting!

Did the Zero bonus apply to those tests? It would be interesting to see test with and without the bonus.

Andrew

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 98
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/15/2005 12:55:09 PM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
Joined: 11/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


[Did the Zero bonus apply to those tests? It would be interesting to see test with and without the bonus.

Andrew



I advanced the date past the bonus date in my test bed so the Zero bonus should not apply in any of teh tests. I wanted as clean a test of the modifications as I could get.

See you in three weeks.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 99
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/15/2005 5:24:06 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Eh..why Zero bonus *has* to be removed ?? Against AI IJ in current (1.06) version AI cannot even capture Hongkong... All improvements seem to go only to Allied side..and while I exlusively play Allied vs. AI I'm not comfortable to weaken IJ even more. If Zero bonus is removed, CHS will be PBEM-only... And that's pity because it does have good potential even against AI.

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 100
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/16/2005 1:03:32 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

Eh..why Zero bonus *has* to be removed ?? Against AI IJ in current (1.06) version AI cannot even capture Hongkong... All improvements seem to go only to Allied side..and while I exlusively play Allied vs. AI I'm not comfortable to weaken IJ even more. If Zero bonus is removed, CHS will be PBEM-only... And that's pity because it does have good potential even against AI.


Boy am I confused. I cannot make Hong Kong last anywhere a week - much less until Christmas Day (when it really fell)? I can take Hong Kong in a day if I support the attack properly - and in three days if things go badly. Still - I think the Zero bonus is right - and IF it were to change I think it should ALSO apply to Oscar! The Zero bonus should apply because of the tactical method Genda got from a junior pilot and made universal - and it was adopted by the Army by the time the war began. It allowed a Zero to get behind even a higher performance enemy fighter that was in the danger zone behind it!

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 101
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/16/2005 3:27:06 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		*I* can take HK too within week...but question is that AI cannot...at least not easily. I too would like to see Zero bonus added to Oscar too. Weakening IJ is not very good for game balance, because it makes it very hard for AI to achieve it's objectives in Spring 1942.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 102
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 12/16/2005 9:27:40 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Still - I think the Zero bonus is right - and IF it were to change I think it should ALSO apply to Oscar! The Zero bonus should apply because of the tactical method Genda got from a junior pilot and made universal - and it was adopted by the Army by the time the war began. It allowed a Zero to get behind even a higher performance enemy fighter that was in the danger zone behind it!


I take it you're saying that both Navy and Army adopted the tactic prior to Dec '41?

Do you have more information about this? It might be very helpful in one of the zero bonus threads.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 103
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 2/7/2006 11:42:18 PM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Very interesting read and test results. I think the reason why the time period for the test is outside of the bonus time for the Zeroes is to insure that the test results are not influenced by that bonus. What is desired is to be happy with results at base and during the early period when the bonus applies we get an improved a2a result for Zeroes.

Whether you decide to apply or not the bonus to the Zero, the modification is balanced for the base Zero model.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 104
RE: Air Combat Mod with test results - 2/8/2006 12:01:09 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I take it you're saying that both Navy and Army adopted the tactic prior to Dec '41?

Do you have more information about this? It might be very helpful in one of the zero bonus threads.


See Sunburst: The Rise of Japanese Naval Air Power, 1909-1941
Mark R Peattle
Naval Institute Press
2001
ISBN 1 55750 432 6
Appendix 9: The Hineri-komi ("turning-in") Maneuver

Citing four sources, three published, two in Japanese, one of them written by Genda himself.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 105
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