Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points?

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Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 7:03:50 PM

ADavidB

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A year or so ago I asked the question, "Can an Allied player win this game?" and I got a fair number of response that fundamentally could be grouped into two ways:

1 - "Yes"

2 - "Why would you ask such a dumb questions?"

Well, it's a year later and we all know a lot more about the Game from having spent (wasted?

) so much time on it. But I am still wondering if an Allied player in a scenario 15 PBEM can win the game on points. We still have various views being promoted here in the Forum, which I'll paraphrase as:

"The Japanese player cannot win the game, but an Allied player can lose it."

"If you are an Allied player and the Japanese player doesn't have an AV, you are winning."

But what about the fundamental victory conditions? Can an Allied player get a victory from points in this game in PBEM? (I firmly believe that it is possible against the AI.)

For example, in order for an Allied player to get an points (auto victory) on January 1, 1944, he must have a 3:1 lead in points. (I'm deliberately ignoring the possibility that the Allied player can get a 4:1 victory in 1943.) So, for example, right now in my game against Tophat, I've got just over 5000 points and Tophat has just over 13,000 points. Most of Tophat's points are Allied Army losses, so I'm not going to be able to "turn" those around and his high value bases are far back from the Front Lines. Is there any where I could "find" 35,000 point in the next, say, 18 game months so that I could get a 3:1 victory?

Or is it only realistic to assume that the Allied player can get to a 2:1 win in 1945? Has anyone achieved a 2:1 Allied win in PBEM yet?

Thanks in advance -

Dave Baranyi

Post #: 1

RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 7:08:59 PM

pompack

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Dave

I have never played that far, but looking at the dynamics of the VP process I suspect that the Allied victory will have to result from accumulating Allied points rather than reducing Japanese points. Since the best source of Allied points is Strategic Bombing I don't think the Allies have much chance of AV in PBEM before 1945 UNLESS the Allies can secure bases in Formosa or Eastern China (against a competent player in 1944?

)

(in reply to ADavidB)

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 7:10:42 PM

ADavidB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Dave

I have never played that far, but looking at the dynamics of the VP process I suspect that the Allied victory will have to result from accumulating Allied points rather than reducing Japanese points. Since the best source of Allied points is Strategic Bombing I don't think the Allies have much chance of AV in PBEM before 1945 UNLESS the Allies can secure bases in Formosa or Eastern China (against a competent player in 1944? )

That makes me feel that minimizing Allied point losses is critical in the long run.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 3

RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 8:39:08 PM

Feinder

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It's interesting that the Allies need points of Strategic Bombing, in order swing the VP totals; but we won't fan those flames...

As you obeserved, the single largest point point "problem" for the Allies the army losses. If you can mitigate the early war losses (usually about 5000 pts for Malaya, SRA, and Manilla; assuming you don't lose anything elsewhere like China), it helps. Aaltho I'm not sure if it will help you actually "win".

Consider the fact that in order to get 3-1 points for army units, when an Allied player re-takes the island bases, he must minimize his losses so that the he kills 6 IJA for each 1 of his own army losses (against dug-in opponents?).

On the flip side, the single greatest "loss" to Japan's points becomes aircraft. If an Allied player can rack up as much as they can here, they somewhat off-set the imbalance in army loss points.

Unfortunately, I can't say about playing into 1944, because none of my games are past 1942 yet... :^)

The problem is that the VP standards for WitP were simply carried over from UV. Unfortunately, the transformation didn't scale well. Whether it's the "peculiar" VP loss ratings for army squads (and the WTF factor of ground combat anyway), or the fact that the loss of a B-17 is worth the same as the loss of a Nate). The VP system is worthless to begin with.

-F-

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 9:25:57 PM

Tom Hunter

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And, even if some one has gotten an Allied victory in 45 (didn't freeboy get one Vs. Zeta or did that game stop) it is now a new game.

When the two players are badly matched it is certainly possible.

But when it comes to two players of (as best we can guess) equal abilities I don't think anyone knows.

Keep watching our Lunacy game, maybe we will find out.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 5

RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 10:12:53 PM

sven6345789

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as you already pointed out, it is not the question of winning the game, but not to loose it by letting the japanese player get an automatic victory. If the japanese player does not have it by january 1944, he probably will loose the game.

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 10:19:37 PM

jwilkerson

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witp_dude versus zeta is "suspended" in Oct 45 with score

Japan ( about ) 70,000
Allies( about ) 130,000

So the Allies are close and closing in - but issue still in doubt. That would could go either way. But - at least I think it shows that it is "possible" .

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 10:21:43 PM

mogami

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Hi, Yes the Allied player can get 2-1 by 1945. It helps if he don't throw thousands of VP away 1942 but look at the base values. Manila is 1200 points for Allies. (Tokyo is 15,000)
Stategic bombing racks up large amounts of points in short order (provided the weather does not stop it because Japanese fighters won't)
The Allied player to win in 1945 simply needs an airfield in range of Home Islands by around Nov 1944.
The Airwar is going to begin providing 5 to 1 by mid 1943.
Land combat provides squat so do "Over Kill" when taking enemy bases to keep Allied loss down. (Don't try too many landing at once. The points you get from the base are nothing it's the air combat/bombing later then matters)
Don't waste ships. 10 point AK require you to score 20 points to make up.

Keep loss low from Dec 41 to Aug 42. Then start hitting back hard. (You should already have a secure area for air combat by then)

The Japanese want to score around 30k points before the end of 1943. That makes a stubborn defense have a chance. Less then 30k won't last through 1944. (Allied players will have 20-25k by end of 1943 unless they suffer major reverses early in war)

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 10:30:30 PM

Bradley7735

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Mogami, don't count on Japanese fighters not killing heavy bombers over Japan.

Feinder posted that he regularly shoots down 25 B-29's per day. Even the super uber over the top allied production can't make up those losses. (maybe it's due to the difference in experience of the players)

And, Derek has posted his experience with night bombing with B-29's. It seems nerfed. (Derek plays the AI, so if he can't night bomb the AI into oblivion, no one can do it in PBEM)

I'm not saying that it's broken, but I haven't seen Japanese players complaining that their industry is trashed after 30 days of allied bombing. (that would imply that it's nerfed to the allied benefit.)

I don't think you can bet that the game is over when the Mariana's are in allied control.

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 10:37:40 PM

mogami

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Hi, Well I have not gotten there yet myself so I'll have to wait and see. I know as Japan I don't stop Allied bombing maybe those new fighters will do the trick. The Allied player can send P-51 from Iwo-Jima on Sweeps to clear out Japanese fighters from his bombing targets. (put some Corsair on CAP at Iwo to keep Japanese bombers off)

The P-38 is not the wonder weapon I feared as Japan. It does provide long range escort and protect bombers but it can be shot down. The Corsair on the other hand is murder.
I think I have shot down 56 of them and lost 600 fighters and a horde of uncounted bombers

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/18/2005 10:54:54 PM

Feinder

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FWIW - My ratio of Zeke vs. B-29 is about 1:2 in air losses (as in I lose one fighter, for every 2 unescorted B-29s). This is a stock '45 scenario by the way, and really shouldn't be considered as comperable to a '41 campaing for PBEM (circumstances are very different).

I'm not sustaining 25 B-29 kills a day (would be fun), but he can't fly that often (* grin *).

It's funny tho. I'm not sure if Ollie noticed or not, but I came fairly close to the 2:1 victory (as Japan, on the first few days of the war), just from the start points. Had I noticed it before launching a massive Kamikaze strike, I would have gone for the win (just for the laugh value, then continued the game).

But Kamikazes tend give the Allied player points really quick. If for some reason you're still playing for points in '45, Kamikazes are not the solution. I sent 900+ plane (escorted) strike vs. TF 58. No aircraft made it thru the CAP, and I lost 500 planes for the effort (500 pts in one day!

).

But then again, the next day, I sent 12 Zeros escorting 30-something Kamikazes vs. some CVEs, and pasted 6 Kamikazes into the 3 of the CVEs (no idea on damage tho).

Like I said, I don't give a rat's ass about the points in this game. I just think it's fun to get the message

"Kamikaze hit on CVE St. Lo..."
"Kamikaze hit on CVE Chennego..."
"Kamikaze hit on LCM-231..."
"Kamikaze hit on LCM-232..."
"Kamikaze hit on LVT-124..."
"Kamkiaze hit on LCI-687..."
"Kamikaze hit on CL Cleveland..."

Am I "getting my money's worth on the "Kamikze:Kill" points ratio? Abosolutely not.

But damn it fun to get that message.

-F-

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/19/2005 12:11:19 AM

mc3744

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Hey Mogami,

From what you say it sounds like I don't stand a chance in my game vs. Hoepner.

It's January '43 and he is already at 30k (I'm at 10k).

Sounds like I have to aim for a draw.
What do you think?

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/19/2005 3:54:08 AM

Gen.Hoepner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

Hey Mogami,

From what you say it sounds like I don't stand a chance in my game vs. Hoepner.
It's January '43 and he is already at 30k (I'm at 10k).

Sounds like I have to aim for a draw.
What do you think?

Are we playing a different match??

I've stopped gaining points months ago. Since Semptember( when we were almost 4-1) you get back to 2.9-1...probably in the next 6 months you'll be at 2-1....by the beginning of 44 1-1... a draw!?!?!?!?

I really do not understand how the allies can lose in this game played by a good and cautious player.
If you play a Fabian tactic in 42, and Japan doesn't go and get something really big ( like India or Russia+China),, Japan has lost. Simple and sound.
Not even PzB, who conquered India by mid 42, managed to get the autovictory.
Then, when you, as allied player, have managed to avoid the japanese autovictory at 1-43, simply start to send Hordes of 4Es to plaster everything that moves...you'll get thousands of points very quickly and everything else will come easily

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/19/2005 5:50:04 AM

j campbell

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David,

I think you summed it up well in another thread when you gave what in your opinion were real winning scenarios for the japanese.

personally, i could care less for what the VP totals out. If I , as a japanese player, do better than they did historically then i win ( for myself). in game terms noone is playing WiTP for tourneys or prizes so what does it matter- if my opponent believes he did better than me so be it. who do i or you have to prove it to? the main emphasis should be to have fun and enjoy the game.

It is ridiculous to believe PzB is losing in that AAR he is performing miracles with the Japanese and even if the allied player slowly grinds out all his units onroute to tokyo and devastates the HI there for points we all know who was victorious in the game- do we not?? BTW- how on earth is a hvy bomber packed with 6 men the equivilant vp as a fighter with 1? in terms of poduction and cost the hvy bomber should be worth more (maybe not 6x but certainly more than 1:1).

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/19/2005 6:20:58 AM

ADavidB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: j campbell

David,

I think you summed it up well in another thread when you gave what in your opinion were real winning scenarios for the japanese.

personally, i could care less for what the VP totals out. If I , as a japanese player, do better than they did historically then i win ( for myself). in game terms noone is playing WiTP for tourneys or prizes so what does it matter- if my opponent believes he did better than me so be it. who do i or you have to prove it to? the main emphasis should be to have fun and enjoy the game.

It is ridiculous to believe PzB is losing in that AAR he is performing miracles with the Japanese and even if the allied player slowly grinds out all his units onroute to tokyo and devastates the HI there for points we all know who was victorious in the game- do we not?? BTW- how on earth is a hvy bomber packed with 6 men the equivilant vp as a fighter with 1? in terms of poduction and cost the hvy bomber should be worth more (maybe not 6x but certainly more than 1:1).

I'm comfortable with what I wrote before in terms of winning conditions for the Japanese player, and I can see how your approach is quite reasonable. But I am still struggling to see if there is a clear cut measure which defines under what conditions an Allied player can "win" a PBEM game.

BTW - I hadn't realized that PzB was losing against Nomad - the last score I remember had PzB still well out ahead.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to j campbell)

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RE: Can an Allied Player win PBEM on Points? - 11/19/2005 1:33:48 PM

mc3744

Posts: 1957
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From: Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: j campbell

David,

I think you summed it up well in another thread when you gave what in your opinion were real winning scenarios for the japanese.

personally, i could care less for what the VP totals out. If I , as a japanese player, do better than they did historically then i win ( for myself). in game terms noone is playing WiTP for tourneys or prizes so what does it matter- if my opponent believes he did better than me so be it. who do i or you have to prove it to? the main emphasis should be to have fun and enjoy the game.

It is ridiculous to believe PzB is losing in that AAR he is performing miracles with the Japanese and even if the allied player slowly grinds out all his units onroute to tokyo and devastates the HI there for points we all know who was victorious in the game- do we not?? BTW- how on earth is a hvy bomber packed with 6 men the equivilant vp as a fighter with 1? in terms of poduction and cost the hvy bomber should be worth more (maybe not 6x but certainly more than 1:1).

While I agree that the victory measurement in this game has to be subjective to a certain extent, I cannot agree on the performance vs. history.

WitP is far from being a perfect simulation, hence comparing game results with historic ones to determine the performance is quite out of target.

In the game you can do things that IRL could not be done and the other way around. Many of these actions have a great impact on the results you get in the game.
Hence, if you care for who's winning, you still need an 'internal' measuring system. History just won't do.

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