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RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 10:19:18 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		time . forces and delay to other operation are high and getting delayed reinforcements will not make this war shorter
only concetrated effort in cen pac and dei can do this
i agree with Andy that if india is left till now it should be as it is  without any further movement
maybe if he threaten malaya as he plans PZB will be forced to withdraw additional forces from india  - remember that with auto supply 3-4 japanese divisions that defend at Karachi are almost out of reach without really massive allied army and without karachi operation doesn't have ant sense


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Post #: 931
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 10:50:23 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		Agreed Sneer

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Post #: 932
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/11/2006 12:23:56 AM   
HarryM

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		Isn't Malaya also out of your LBA range? Same prob as Marianas?

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Post #: 933
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/11/2006 12:33:12 AM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		PZB can't guard heavily all areas - this is main concept i think 

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Post #: 934
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/11/2006 1:36:04 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Aye sneer has it right.

The issue is not that I cannot win air superiority for a period of time. Its just that I cannot keep it for more than a week because I don't have the pool depth.

The Marianas would have taken a month minimum and probably a lot longer.

My new targets will be based on the premise that a single divison or corps can take them.

I am pretty certain that 3rd Corps (3 Divs plus armour) will get the job of securing Balikapan to Tarakan I am still debating the landing site.

5 Amphib Corps (4 Divs including 1 Marine Div) will probably hit 4 seperate isolated bases each one in turn secured by a division.

Reinforcement for this corps will be available from 11th Airborne Div.

5 Corps will get given the job of securing Eastern and North Borneo (Specific objectives still being evaluated)

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Post #: 935
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/11/2006 8:08:50 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Sneer I agree with you India is very much a tertiary operation only to be considered if A. I get clear evidence he has stripped the subcontinent or B. A limited operation to take either Madras or Calcutta by 1 Corps purely to open another front where I can deploy some of my surplus air units and only after I secure Malaya and destoy Palembang.

(I am attracted by a limited attack on one of these cities in the long term or even any city because from there I can base a Marine Para Bn with a PBY and Dakota Sqn and cause absolute mayhem for little or no cost)

For absolute clarity I am not proposing going near to India until after I secure Malaya, West Borneo and perhaps even Formosa its more in the nature of a long range raid to reduce PZB's VP total

p.s. Karachi and Bombay auto supply is allies only Japanese dont get it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

time . forces and delay to other operation are high and getting delayed reinforcements will not make this war shorter
only concetrated effort in cen pac and dei can do this
i agree with Andy that if india is left till now it should be as it is  without any further movement
maybe if he threaten malaya as he plans PZB will be forced to withdraw additional forces from india  - remember that with auto supply 3-4 japanese divisions that defend at Karachi are almost out of reach without really massive allied army and without karachi operation doesn't have ant sense



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Post #: 936
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/11/2006 11:43:46 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Sneer I agree with you India is very much a tertiary operation only to be considered if A. I get clear evidence he has stripped the subcontinent or B. A limited operation to take either Madras or Calcutta by 1 Corps purely to open another front where I can deploy some of my surplus air units and only after I secure Malaya and destoy Palembang.

(I am attracted by a limited attack on one of these cities in the long term or even any city because from there I can base a Marine Para Bn with a PBY and Dakota Sqn and cause absolute mayhem for little or no cost)

For absolute clarity I am not proposing going near to India until after I secure Malaya, West Borneo and perhaps even Formosa its more in the nature of a long range raid to reduce PZB's VP total

p.s. Karachi and Bombay auto supply is allies only Japanese dont get it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

time . forces and delay to other operation are high and getting delayed reinforcements will not make this war shorter
only concetrated effort in cen pac and dei can do this
i agree with Andy that if india is left till now it should be as it is  without any further movement
maybe if he threaten malaya as he plans PZB will be forced to withdraw additional forces from india  - remember that with auto supply 3-4 japanese divisions that defend at Karachi are almost out of reach without really massive allied army and without karachi operation doesn't have ant sense





If PzB hasn´t moved out a lot of supply then he has 1000000+ supply in India. All the supply you lost and all those ressource centers producing supply.

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Post #: 937
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/12/2006 4:00:45 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I know it doesn't help you, but in CHS v2.06, they just increased the production of F6F's from 144 to 230 per month.
86 more per month would certainily have helped.



< Message edited by ny59giants -- 7/12/2006 4:01:29 AM >

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Post #: 938
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/12/2006 4:32:49 AM   
ChezDaJez


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Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

p.s. Karachi and Bombay auto supply is allies only Japanese dont get it


Hi Andy,

I assume PzB has control of Karachi. Has that totally cut off all UK replacements? And if so, does that also negate any Brit fleet withdrawals or do you still get charged PPs for not withdrawing?

Just curious, but would an operation to retake Karachi be an option instead of a Ceylon operation after Malaya has fallen? I realize that might be but it could become a self-supporting one if the operation were successful. Wouldn't that open up UK reinforcements again? Or do you not need the forces?

Just a thought as that would really cause PZB headaches with a third front openng in his rear.

Chez

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Post #: 939
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/12/2006 10:12:49 AM   
soeren01

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Bayern
Status: offline 		Hi Andy,

 in my opinion you need to open up more fronts. So you can use your superior number of aircraft better. Fan out so you can launch more air attacks. If he defends, you destroy his planes. If he does not defend, you can hurt his troops or ships. Try to bomb everything everywhere if you have the airpower. You could take Columbo and mount an air campaign agains India from there. This threat will also force him to keep grund troops in India for Columbo may be the jumping point for an invasion. You do not single out a target, the US should have enough forces at hand to do several things at once. Go for his industrie and his mercahnt ships and everything else that comes to mind.  Put everyone of your airfields to use. Swamp him with airpower.

Soeren


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Post #: 940
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/12/2006 11:23:53 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		IMO 230 is still to low but yes it would have helped !!!

I dont have that many RN Ships so the chance of withdrawal is very low. Its strange the army and air units are sitting off map just waiting to arrive but the RN has stayed at the same delay as on the date karachi fell so even if I re open Karachi or Bombay I wont get the fleet.

The problem with Karachi and Bombay is that its an urban hex therefore almost impossible to take without a massive effort and I am not willing to make that effort.

I will spare at most 1 Corps for the re invasion of India I cannot spare more and an urban hex is to hard for a single corps as he wil have at leat 1 - 1.5 Divs with lvl 9 forts there.

Its just not doable

Soeren thats the plan take lots of bases and force him to cover multiple axis but I expect Colombo to be heavily garrsoned so again its a case of pick a target I can take to get a foothold and then exploit it.

As its low on the priority list I am not really thinking about it to much at present.

Andy

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Post #: 941
A new Plan - 7/12/2006 2:43:45 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		My thinking is in progress but this is a 1st cut of the nw plan






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Post #: 942
RE: A new Plan - 7/12/2006 2:44:26 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		k




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Post #: 943
RE: A new Plan - 7/12/2006 2:44:58 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
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Post #: 944
RE: A new Plan - 7/12/2006 2:45:37 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		And a little more






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Post #: 945
RE: A new Plan - 7/12/2006 5:53:10 PM   
String


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The aussies will return to Singapore with vengeance for sure!

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Post #: 946
RE: A new Plan - 7/12/2006 9:11:07 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		With some Kiwi Friends I am trying to get a NZ Div (1st, 2nd and 3rd Bdes) released to join in the fun.

If Noemfoor can be taken 7th Aus Div will also join in as army reserve.

The Timetable planned is

1. 8th US Army hits Borneo June/July 44
2. 1st Aus Army hits Malaya July/August 44
3. 6th US Army hits Mindanao August/September 44
4. 10th Army hits Formosa November 44


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Post #: 947
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 4:06:50 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline 		Far be it for me to question your allied strategy, but North Borneo and Mindanao might be a bit premature.
These I am sure will trigger kamikazes, and with PzB's seemingly inexhaustable supply of a/c, will be a major issue. Call me cautious but I would be tempted to capture/subdue Timor/Javva/south Borneo/Sumatra before heading to PI and Formosa. You have seen how he is attacking your convoys up the north coast of PNG - if he has the airfields to base kami squadrons behind your lines it will be a major headache.
How to do it ? - I've not got the experience of the late war game to offer advice. Just something to think about.

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Post #: 948
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 5:34:42 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I have thought about it unfortunatley Java is pointless, Timor is on the front line and is heavily garrsisoned and fortified and Sumatra is only worth it if I am going to use the oil.

Java in 43 would have been a good move (or is a viable objective for SEAC forces in 44) but in mid 44 for my US/Aus/NZ troops its a distraction.

Remember I am 20 ish divisions light on ground troops for major campaigns which is why I avoid bases that are reinforcable

3 Corps assault on South Borneo is no. 1 on my list of objectives only after I have an AF will I move into East and North Borneo.

If I secure a couple of bases then LBA can take over the heavy lifting on anti Kami duty. But the point is I am on the clock now and I need to use my seapower to strike deep take strategic bases and pound on PZB if it costs me a few carriers so be it !!!!

At the end of the day I need to take the plunge and strike deep.

Formosa is a deep strike but I will have c 50 CVE's by then to help screen the fleet as well as my fleet carriers more of which will have F4U1D Sqns so although I wont be immune I will have cover. (And if Formosa is well garrsioned then I will hit Okinawa, If Okinawa is well garrsioned then Hong Kong will get it wherever he defends I will avoid he cannot be strong everywhere !!!!

Andy

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Post #: 949
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 5:50:27 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		A few have suggested I re open Karachi so I checked the troops waiting in Persia to exploit south.

At present I have lots of HQ's 2 Armies and about 4 Corps, about 5 Divisons of Infantry and 8 Armoured Regts plus lots of Base Forces and Aviation Regt.

Broadly the fighting power of one of my 2 Corps Armies and about 30 Sqns of Aircraft.

But to take it I need to take Bombay or karachi and as both are Urban hexes with lvl 9 forts and probably 2 Divs each I view it as impossible.

NOTE FOR DEVELOPERS.

Allied reinforcements should not be limited to Karachi/Bombay both of which are impossible to take but also to cities at northern map edge and possible other Western Coastal Cities.

My taking of any base with an off map link to the North or West should re activate UK reinforcements.

p.s. Naval Units are not counting down and sitting off map in the way that Army and AF units are is that a deliberate design decison (I have Carriers and BB's I will never see even if I reopen the conduit because countdown is to long !!!!)

Andy

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RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 6:47:18 PM   
saj42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I have thought about it unfortunatley Java is pointless, Timor is on the front line and is heavily garrsisoned and fortified and Sumatra is only worth it if I am going to use the oil.

Java in 43 would have been a good move (or is a viable objective for SEAC forces in 44) but in mid 44 for my US/Aus/NZ troops its a distraction.

Andy


I thought that might be the case - thats why my question was capture/subdue. The A/Fs behind your lines need to be kept closed so that PzB can't fly units from Malaya to Sumatra to Java and attack your logistic train.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

NOTE FOR DEVELOPERS.

Allied reinforcements should not be limited to Karachi/Bombay both of which are impossible to take but also to cities at northern map edge and possible other Western Coastal Cities.

My taking of any base with an off map link to the North or West should re activate UK reinforcements.

p.s. Naval Units are not counting down and sitting off map in the way that Army and AF units are is that a deliberate design decison (I have Carriers and BB's I will never see even if I reopen the conduit because countdown is to long !!!!)

Andy


Players already have the ability to change the command of (for example) a West Cast unit in the reinforcement schedule and have it appear as SEAC in Karachi 30 days later. Can this not be done in reverse change command of SEAC unit to West Coast and they appears in SF 30 days later ?????
As for the vessels not counting down - just another code glitch perhaps

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Post #: 951
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 6:57:30 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Not sure if the command HQ change works in reverse. Unfortunately as SEAC is off map not a lot I can do about it now to change HQ even if it worked.

I suspect the naval Units not counting down is a bug but cest la vie India is to tough anyway.

Andy

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Post #: 952
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 6:59:08 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		In order to subdue I need to have AF's in range and I dont want to waste my limited AF Securing my rear I need to just take my hits and if it costs me a few AK's so be it

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Post #: 953
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 8:50:48 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
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Status: offline 		Limited AF? You already told us that you have more AF that you can use...

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Post #: 954
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 9:06:36 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Sorry over use of AF

AF in this case meant Airfields.....so many planes so little space to deply them.....

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Post #: 955
RE: A new Plan - 7/13/2006 10:40:48 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
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Status: offline 		Oh... that AF... OK, can we pratend that my previous sentence doesn't exist?

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Post #: 956
RE: A new Plan - 7/14/2006 9:55:34 AM   
soeren01

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Bayern
Status: offline 		You do not need to go for Karachi. Take the rest of india and you will be fine. Bypass his strongholds there and use them as target fpr target practice of your aircraft. He can not reeinforce India and Malaya and the Philipines and Borneo at the same time. So you are bound to find a week spot. As long as you have enough engineers to build up captured  airfields quickly  you should be able to advance.


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Post #: 957
RE: A new Plan - 7/14/2006 3:22:57 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I will have at most 4 Divs on this little diversion when it happens and little or no engineers I view it as a raid to capture a few good VP cities from the Japanese nothing more. Its unlikely to kick off until 45 anyway.

Bypassing is the name of the game now.

It must really irritate Japanese Players if they make the defenses to strong the allies bypass, if they are not quite strong enough the allies blitz them. I am sure that Biak, Hollandia, Menado, the Marianas are all well defended but the allies should only attack bases they are sure they can take and the Japanese even without India cannot be strong everywhere.

Andy 

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Post #: 958
RE: A new Plan - 7/14/2006 6:41:09 PM   
WhoCares


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline 		What about going from Borneo to Hainan to Vietnam and SW-China? Instead of Formosa.
Hainan - Vietnam could also be more mutually supportive to a Malaya operation.
Formosa might still be a step to close to early with many major japanese holdings all around.

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Post #: 959
RE: A new Plan - 7/14/2006 6:44:56 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		You could be right and I am far from committed yet 10th US Army doesn't activate for 30 days so I have time.

Hainan is definitley a possibility as is Hong Kong.

But Formosa is preffered if I can do it because of the space and good AF's to crucify the HI with.

PZB really should have let me get ashore at the Marianas and not scared me off......this is a mistake I am hoping to punish.

Andy

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Post #: 960
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