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- 7/7/2000 8:35:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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Guderian: Fascinating that the attempt to disgrace them, actually worked in reverse, though obviously those Poles I mentioned didn't feel that way. I recall the "World at War" series showing the alleged charge as being proof of Polish valor.

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- 7/7/2000 8:41:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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The understanding that the Soviets outpaced Gerry in ANY category by 10-to-1 is exaggeration. What it amounts to, is that people hear of certain key battles where the Soviets had amassed such odds for various categories and then people go around thinking it was so across the front. Of course as Germany's military forces became smaller in '45 and so on, it probably wasn't unreasonable that the Soviets had achieved such a number, not because the Soviets were producing at a ridiculous pace, but because the base of comparison, being the German Army, had dwindled to such an extent.

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Post #: 62
- 7/7/2000 9:40:00 PM   
Seth

 

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I imagine that the 10-1 is sort of a German apologist stat. Maybe 10-1 in tanks towards the end because the Soviets produced them at a ridiculous rate. However, having at least 3 to 1 superiority, the Soviets could easily amass 10-1 or higher in local areas, without having to worry about stripping parts of the front. The Germans had to resort to desperate measures to even have a shot at parity. [This message has been edited by Seth (edited 07-07-2000).]

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Post #: 63
- 7/7/2000 10:31:00 PM   
Fabs

 

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quote:

Originally posted by sven: Part of history is hard analysis. If one were to have asked military intel. in 1938 who was stronger France or Germany I am guessing NO ONE would have stated the French would have fell so quickly. That is why I am wondering who was overrated. The virtue of individual soldiers is not what is being discussed. For all I know The French were the most loyal courageous army on an individual basis, but I can't determine that without a lot of ahistoric anecdotal evidence at this point. What I can analyze is the performance of the French Army. Point out to me one time that I have denigrated individual soldiers. My feeling is that if the French wanted to act the part of the dominant power in continental Europe they really should have had a better idea of how to project power. That has nothing to do with the relative merits of the French soldier as compared to any other- it is a strategic failure not an operational one. If I have offended anyone with this topic I am sorry. I had relatives serving in three armies, German, Canadian, and US. It truly was not my intent to besmirch any individual other than inept leadership, and leaders place themselves in a position to be held accountable for their deeds. humbly, sven
I have replied to some of these points in another posting. I am not saying that you offended me or anyone for that matter. The point I was making was not necessarily aimed at you, but at some of the comments made in other posts. It is only my opinion, I have expressed it and you have the right to yours. More precisely, my argument is that the question is framed in terms that are too general. I believe that what you are talking about is the quality of the Military and political leadership in the early war years. Whether the Army of a country was over-rated or not is a moot point. The French Army of 1939 was indeed a formidable force. That is indisputable fact. Their poor performance was down to poor leadership and a fraught political situation. One could argue, as some other members have done, that the Germans were over-rated. Their early successes owed much to the lack of preparedness and poor leadership of their opponents. Once they were faced by determined and well led opponents, they did nothing but retreat, albeit skillfully. Skillfully? That is certainly true where terrain favored them, as in Italy and Normandy. But what about "Luttich"? (Mortain offensive). What about the successive debacles in Russia and Eastern Europe due to the "hold at all costs" policy? What about "Wacht am Rhein"? Germanofiles will say "ah, but that was Hitler, nothing to do with the excellent german High Command!". Wasn't he the Supreme Commander? Did they not carry out his orders? We are getting into hot water here! But I believe that this illustrates my point. ------------------ Fabs [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 07-07-2000).]

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Post #: 64
- 7/7/2000 10:47:00 PM   
sven


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Whether the Army of a country was over-rated or not is a moot point. The French Army of 1939 was indeed a formidable force. That is indisputable fact. Their poor performance was down to poor leadership and a fraught political situation. One could argue, as some other members have done, that the Germans were over-rated. Their early successes owed much to the lack of preparedness and poor leadership of their opponents. Once they were faced by determined and well led opponents, they did nothing but retreat, albeit skillfully. Skillfully? That is certainly true where terrain favored them, as in Italy and Normandy. But what about "Luttich"? (Mortain offensive). What about the successive debacles in Russia and Eastern Europe due to the "hold at all costs" policy? What about "Wacht am Rhein"? Germanofiles will say "ah, but that was Hitler, nothing to do with the excellent german High Command!". Wasn't he the Supreme Commander? Did they not carry out his orders? We are getting into hot water here! But I believe that this illustrates my point. [/B][/QUOTE] Sorry Fabs... have to disagree with you on the old "French Army was formidable force in '39" schtick. Armies are not merely collections of tanks, guns, and infantry. The military also involves things like command structure, doctrine, and political handling of the homefront. France may indeed have had great equipment, but if the nation's leadership did not require a high state of readiness that is a factor that affects the army's effort on a battlefield. POINT BEING it is still the French Army which is being analyzed. I find the wording, "Which nation engaged in the most pathetic war effort?" to be a lot more harsh and a lot less able to be objectively discussed. War effort in the modern world has great effect on the performance of armies. I guess in your view I may have made the mistake of thinking that there were people able to objectively look at the second world war on this board.(not trying to put words in your mouth just what I seem to think you are saying) I disagree with that by the way. I am not wanting chest thumping Germany is #1 posts. I want analysis of the performance of armies in relation to the threat analysis of them at the time. The question as worded is not meant as, nor do I think that it was to mature posters, an invitation for ad hominem attacks on nations. regards, sven ------------------ Give all you can all you can give....

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Post #: 65
- 7/7/2000 11:10:00 PM   
Fabs

 

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Sven, I have replied under the other thread (most under-rated army). ------------------ Fabs

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Post #: 66
- 7/10/2000 8:04:00 PM   
JJU57

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Drake666: Aircraft Available In Europe Date Soviet German June 1942 2100 3700 December 1942 3800 3400 June 1943 5600 4600 December 1943 8800 4700 June 1944 14,700 4600 December 1944 15,800 8500 http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html
Do you really believe that the Germans had 8500 combat aircraft in December of 44. They never had 8500 at any time during the war. If they had these numbers they would have sent then to support the West to support their effort there. Remember some little battle to split the Americans and British. After all Hitler took his remaining tank reserves and put them there. There was only one time that the German army outnumbered the Russians. That was just after the Kiev encirclements and the the Germans had already begged 1.5 million Russians at the time. Finally, by your numbers the Germans went from 4600 planes to 8500 in 6 months yet they were getting killed in the air by the allies.

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Post #: 67
- 7/11/2000 4:54:00 AM   
JJU57

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Drake666: Look at some of the stats and see for yourself. http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html
I went to that site and if your relying on their numbers then your in big trouble. A quick check shows numerous inconsistancies. They report 57% of German division on the east front in '44 with a total of 347 in the army. That comes out to 197 and they report 157 divisions. I also noticed that you used the total inflated 8500 aircraft against the Russians. They report 45% on the east. Another questionable number is their report of 3.1 million men on the east front in 44. This coupled with their number of 40% of troops on the east front would mean that the Germans had 7.75 million men under arms in 1944. I just don't believe it. Another way to look at it is that each of the 347 divisions would have an average of over 22,000 men. And this after 5 years of war. Similar anaylsis of the aircraft show just as crazy numbers. Just compare the number of German planes available on D-Day with the total number of 8500. I really think you need a new source of numbers. If the Germans had close to the numbers reported on that page, all of Europe would be speaking German today!

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Post #: 68
- 7/11/2000 6:58:00 AM   
Sabot Scott

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Tankhead: Earlier in the war everybody was saying the Germans have better this better that, but in reality the allies had good stuff too but they did not know how to use it too it's advantage. Like I said in my 1st post it took a few good beatting before they realize what to do with all those new war tools. Tankhead
You are right on about this Tankhead. If the English and French had studied the writings of Englishman B.H. Liddell Hart as much as Guderian did the first months of the war could have been very different. Scott p.s. I just have to say that I love reading this board almost as much as I enjoy playing the game. There are some very well read scholars of armored conflict on this board! [This message has been edited by Sabot Scott (edited 07-10-2000).]

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Post #: 69
- 7/11/2000 7:30:00 AM   
Corentor

 

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quote:

Originally posted by sven: I, by the way, do not concur with your hypothesis. I will issue you a challenge. Show me one WW2 campaign where a grossly inferior army was made totally victorious by Air Superiority. sven
We all know there is no case in WWII in which a inferior army was pushed onto victory soley with the advantage of air superiority. It is intresting to note however, how no one every allowed that possibility to occur though. In every case, the superior army on the field had first taken great pains to gain that air superiority. The Germans wiped out the however meager polish air force in 1939 with great zeal and efficiency, as they did again in 1940 against the Western Allies and 1941 again against the Soviets. Similarly the Allies did not allow Overlord to proceed until the Luftwaffe was vapourized. The fact that the allies did not even think of allowing to Luftwaffe the ability to sortie goes to show how much the Allies respected Air power for what it was and how it could wreak havoc with your operations. It is not the be all end all weapon we all know but it commands a great deal of respect. I do have 2 examples in which Airpower DID save an inferior army but this must come outside WWII. The first is in the Police action in Korea. The USAF and the USN airpower played a curcial and decisive role in their delaying action which allowed the US to sea lift enough troops to hold the line in Pusan. There is no doubt that the NKPA was by far a superior force in light of the ill-disiplined and ill trained US troopers and the meagerly equipped ROK forces. It was not until the US had managed to build a numerical superiorty in Pusan that MacAruthur could have launched his Inchon landings successfully and have success at both ends of the country. The US airforce came to the rescue again when the PLA intervened. The Chinese openly admitt that their failure to push the US/UN forces to the sea was caused in chief by US airpower. The second example comes from the Yom Kippur war in the Sinai front. The Egyptians had learned their lesson well from the 6 day war and had procured large numbers of Soviet SA batteries. Their initial spearheads made excellent progress as the IAF was unable to penetrate the missile screen and it was clear that the Isralies, though not inferior were outnumbered and could not have held against the Egyptians. As the Egyptain armor rolled onward to exploit their victory over frontier Israli troops, they outran their support from the SA batteries which had to be towed and the IAF promptly chewed them up and handed them to the Israli armoured relief coloumns which finished them off. Had the Egyptians waited up for their SA units, things would have been really rough on the Isralies. I can't confidently say they would have lost but it certainly changed the battle 180 degress in favour of the Isralies. I also would not say the US Army could not have done what they did without the US Army Air corps (what you call them makes no difference, they are still aircraft) but I think you will have to agree that the Western Allies would have been in no position for Churchill to propose a "race to Berlin" with the Soviets. -Mike Chung P.S. Ouch you really hammered Drake ease up.

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Post #: 70
- 7/11/2000 7:57:00 AM   
albert

 

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maybe it was Liechtenstein after all at the end of the war (according to Peter Tolstoy) the prince told a Soviet general to evacuate or else. They did. The prince later said he just used language the soviets understood.

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Post #: 71
- 7/11/2000 11:38:00 AM   
Kluckenbill

 

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This post has hit on two interesting aspects of WW2, the use (and misuse) of mass, and air power. First, regarding the Germans constant lament that they were outnumbered by 6 to 1 or 8 to one in Russian attacks. Often that was true, simply because the Russians regularly fooled the Germans (or rather, the Germans often fooled themselves) as to where the next attack would come. Look at the deployment of German armor prior to Bagration, look at the German counterattack in Hungary at the end of the war. The Russians did a masterful job of deceiving the Germans and massing their forces. Regarding air power (and naval power for that matter) its important to remember that the money and manpower spent on air forces could alternatively be deployed on the ground. In WW2 this is especially important in the US/British strategic bombing offensive. Without getting into all of the pro and con arguments, suffice to say the US and Britain could have fielded a lot of Armored Divisions with the resources committed to killing German civilians.

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Post #: 72
- 7/11/2000 12:15:00 PM   
Kev

 

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quote:

Without getting into all of the pro and con arguments, suffice to say the US and Britain could have fielded a lot of Armored Divisions with the resources committed to killing German civilians.[/B]
But those Armoured Divs would have had to face the 10's of thousands of Heavy Flak guns being employed as AT guns instead of scattered across Germany pointing up, the resources wasted in a Night Fighter Network and Defence of the Reich force being used offensively against them and facing units that all had better equipment and more of it because of less interference with production. They also would have faced a healthy Luftwaffe on D-Day, without heavy bombers to lure the fighters up and kill them, the Luftwaffe might well have had air parity (or better) over france mid 44.

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Post #: 73
- 7/11/2000 1:27:00 PM   
Fabs

 

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The war effort necessary to defeat Nazi Germany needed to be balanced across a number of areas. I am not sure what benefit the Allies would have gained from deploying lots more armored divisions in North West Europe in 1944-45. The war was being fought on two fronts anyway, and the Russians had plenty of armored punch. Would the Western Allies have got to Berlin faster than the Russians if they had deployed more armor on the ground at the expense of the strategic air campaign fought over Germany? I doubt that their logistical infrastructure, that struggled to keep supplies flowing to the forces that were actually employed once the pursuit got under way, could have been expanded in key areas such as the build up capability of the available port facilities. The greatest controversy about the conduct of the war in the west after the breakout from Normandy concerns how resources were allocated to sustain the pursuit. Montgomery argued that supplies should be cocentrated to sustain a deep armored thrust on a narrow front. He screwed up by having the vanity to propose that he should command that operation. He should have realized that by that time the Americans had become the senior partners in the effort, and allowed Eisenhower to pick an American general. Patton would have done nicely. But Monty was not going to have any of that. Eisenhower had to take into consideration that he could not snub his British partners too severely, while placating his own feuding generals, and was left with no option but to rule that supplies would be divided equally across the front and pursuit would be conducted on as broad a front as possible. This controversy shaped the reast of the campaign for 1944 and probably delayed the end of the war. Stalin was, by that time, delighted. There are many arguments about the real effects of the bombing on the German war effort. Some of them are suspect in the sense that they aim to throw a bad light on the Allies by discounting the impact on military and industrial targets and claiming that the real intention was to kill German civilians. The supporters of this argument conveniently forget that it was the Germans who started using air power as a terror weapon. Thus, they sowed the seed and eventually reaped the whirlwind. That terrorising the German population was an important element in the bombing effort is undeniable. The war had become total, and any method available had to be used to accelerate the disintegration of the support systems that were keeping the Nazi war machine going. Knowing that their relatives were being killed at home would have had an important effect on the morale of German troops at the front. This was often said to be a strengthening of resolve, which was probably true initially, but eventually it must have contributed in great measure to the rapid collapse of the German will to continue fighting. Having said all this, one thing is undeniable, and it has been been pointed out by Kev. Weapons, men and materiel had to be held back in Germany to defend against the marauding Allied planes. In particular, this kept the skies over the battlefields free from German aircraft. I also believe that the chaos caused by the bombing must have crucially hampered the German military and industrial effort. I can not agree with people who over-emphasize the importance of the strategic bombing campaign to the point of asserting that it alone could have got a result, but I accept that it played a detrmining role alongside the other efforts. ------------------ Fabs [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 07-11-2000).]

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