Holy Hell, hate to be this crew!

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Holy Hell, hate to be this crew!

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Holy Hell, hate to be this crew!

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 4:50:45 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

I am currently upgrading my carriers, so my offense has stopped until refits are, however I slowly let Rubaul build then send over a mass formation of B-24's - here's what happens.

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 72
B-24D Liberator x 259

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 199, on fire
AP Takayo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Kinugasa, Bomb hits 18, on fire
AP Oyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Nittatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Manei Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kyushu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Tango Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Haguro Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Otori Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
4209 casualties reported
Guns lost 21

Port hits 17
Port supply hits 21

199 Bomb hits!?!?! I would seriously hate to be a crew member on that ship and looking upward to those bombs dropping. Sadly I doubt she's going to sink, most were 500lb's due to Port Attack.

Post #: 1

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 4:55:45 PM

rjopel

Posts: 614
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline

Oh the pounding in my head.......

Will it ever stop.

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 2

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:04:34 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Port supply kinda got torched, too.

(in reply to rjopel)

Post #: 3

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:20:42 PM

RUPD3658

Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 199, on fire

Gee, not even "Heavy damage"

You would think that she would have sunk from the extra weight and that the crew would be dead from the concusion.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 4

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:30:12 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 199, on fire

Gee, not even "Heavy damage"

You would think that she would have sunk from the extra weight and that the crew would be dead from the concusion.

Yeah to make it worse, I did 3 raids on Rubaul, each had over 185 Bombs hit the Mutsu, last raid was 241 bombs, and still not even "Heavy Damage" only she's on fire.

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 5

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:38:20 PM

John Lansford

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

Considering how Nagato was turned into a burned out shell by far fewer bomb hits in 1945, in your game Mutsu should be stripped of everything above the armored deck and outside the armor belts by now. Bow/stern blown off, superstructure gone, secondary/AAA weapons destroyed, just a bridge structure, main gun turrets and the armored box of the hull left.

However, what's probably happened is she has about 25 System damage, perhaps some secondary/AAA guns destroyed, and capable of at least 2/3 her usual speed. In my game Mutsu is performing the same function, only at Kwajalein; four carriers' worth of Dauntless attacks gained about 50 hits on her while I was invading Eniwetok.

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 6

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:47:26 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

Oh man that sucks, I fired all the B-24 commanders in hoping to get them to arm 1,000lb bombs for once, Sadly with moral being around 50-60% Its not likely to do much period, aircrew skill wise around 65-70, however I am not really looking to sink any capitol ships, its the support ships that are taking a serious toll, I have around 150 AK/Tankers sank so far around Rubaul alone. the magic 8-ball says "Highly Unlikely" I will sink anything bigger then a CA.
Hell even the CA Kinugasa has around 20 bomb hits per turn, still is only "on fire" and not heavy damage.

This is first time I had all my B24 crews over at Moresby, usually half are spent in Cooktown resting and gaining moral, other half flying combat missions keeping the airfields/ports shut down. I was just curious what 250+ B-24's would do to an airfield/port, most airfields get around 90% damage done on 1 pass.

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 7

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 6:03:27 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

Here's a thread I had a while back about an American BB taking over 200 250kg bomb hits.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=�

Only in this case it happened at sea and the ship eventually burned out and sank.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 8

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 7:09:22 PM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

WITP hit model ...enough said. Lets hope that AE is better.

WITP damage model ...enough said. Lets hope that AE is better.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 9

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 8:58:26 PM

wild_Willie2

Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline

The ironic part, a few patches ago the dauntless got the ability to drop 1000lbs AP bombs in order for them to damage BB's. Only problem is that the 1000lb AP penetration value is smaller than BB deck armour so these bombs are just MORE pingpong balls ......

Same goes for 2000lb AP bombs dropped by 4E bombers... I have seen about 5-6 hits by these on BB's and NONE penetrated

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 4/1/2009 9:00:01 PM >

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 10

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 9:06:01 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

LOL I did 5 more 280+ B-24 runs to Mutsu and finally got "heavy damage" on her after repeated 250+ bomb hits. Just kidding, it was 10 SBD's that dropped 4x 1000lb bombs that got her to "heavy damage" followed by the almost 300 B-24's that ping ponged her.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)

Post #: 11

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 9:09:14 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

LOL I did 5 more 280+ B-24 runs to Mutsu and finally got "heavy damage" on her after repeated 250+ bomb hits. Just kidding, it was 10 SBD's that dropped 4x 1000lb bombs that got her to "heavy damage" followed by the almost 300 B-24's that ping ponged her.

Interesting... in the bad old days, WITP surface combat would sometimes get into a loop... one CL pounded the Yamato with 6" guns... nothing penetrated, but after 200 rounds Yamato sank!

i would expect 500 pound bombs would do something similar...

how big a port is this the Mutsu is in? If it is a size 9 or 10, you might have quite a chore trying to sink her.

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 12

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 9:31:16 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

LOL I did 5 more 280+ B-24 runs to Mutsu and finally got "heavy damage" on her after repeated 250+ bomb hits. Just kidding, it was 10 SBD's that dropped 4x 1000lb bombs that got her to "heavy damage" followed by the almost 300 B-24's that ping ponged her.

Interesting... in the bad old days, WITP surface combat would sometimes get into a loop... one CL pounded the Yamato with 6" guns... nothing penetrated, but after 200 rounds Yamato sank! i would expect 500 pound bombs would do something similar...

how big a port is this the Mutsu is in? If it is a size 9 or 10, you might have quite a chore trying to sink her.

Its rubaul so I would guess size 9, I am not worried about sinking her really, she's heavily damaged and not going anywhere, I am basically wasting time till my carriers can get refitted and out to sea, then will see about her being sunk faster

Its amazing how even a repair yard can keep her afloat so long even after AF/port are both 100% damaged, you would assume it would stop repairing ships, however it doesn't.

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 13

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 11:25:52 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

It's the BOINK TM damage model. Oh, and crews are not modelled.

Had to pipe up, it was a griper's wet dream.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 14

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 1:48:16 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

I can't complain about the damage model, WiTP is probably one of the best games on the market hands down, a few bugs doesn't bother me its games that are mostly incomplete.
Seriously I played many games over the years, and I can think of few that can compete with WiTP on an "operational scale"

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 15

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:23:16 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

So I tally up the last few combat reports, Mutsu was hit by 1359 bombs, most are 500lb's dropped by B-24s, and a few were dropped by SBD's operating close from Shortland island. What happen? Mutsu steamed off into the sun towards Truk, then bolted back towards Japan.

My next question is how the hell can you execute the leaders? Its not really a game mechanic problem, most of my aircrew's moral are 50-60 I guess which is to low to fly with 1,000 bombs, unless its because of the range, anyhow I say we need a Stalin button in AE to purge the commander if needed

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 16

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:55:54 AM

RUPD3658

Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline

Many of us have asked for an "Execute leader" button. It would lower morale but improve performance.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 17

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 11:26:20 AM

John Lansford

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

You can always replace unit leaders, you just might not get any better results with the new guy. Other than for SW TF's, I've not seen much difference in one leader to another for such things as HQ's and LCU's. Subs definitely perform better with aggressive commanders, and TF's are slightly more likely to react with an aggressive CO, but that's about it.

Has anyone left Short or Kimmel in command of CentPac HQ to see if it made any difference?

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 18

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 12:26:32 PM

Odin

Posts: 1052
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
Status: offline

Nice results. I wanted to do this with Truk, but its out of P-38 range, unfortunately.

_____________________________

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 19

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 1:57:53 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Odin

Nice results. I wanted to do this with Truk, but its out of P-38 range, unfortunately.

I am about to have Operation Hailstone in effect soon, 4 CV and 4 CVE's are doing the attack, basically they are going to bombard for 2 turns then retire north to help with a Guam landing.

(in reply to Odin)

Post #: 20

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:15:50 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

she finally sinks!! Also another BB That took 5 turns to finish off.
BB Mutsu Sunk Turn 145 Rabaul 500 lb GP Bomb
BB Yamashiro Sunk Turn 150 Rabaul 500 lb GP Bomb

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 21

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:44:54 PM

John Lansford

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

Probably capsized from the weight of all those bomb fragments sitting on the deck of the ship...

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 22

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 7:25:33 PM

reg113

Posts: 368
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: MS, USA
Status: offline

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 23

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 8:20:33 PM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

This thing is a deal breaker for me. It breaks all game, turning it into a farse. The aircraft goes to 10000ft or 20000ft? what it matters you can put 500 bombs in a Battleships and she is still around to play...

(in reply to reg113)

Post #: 24

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 2:51:50 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Many of us have asked for an "Execute leader" button. It would lower morale but improve performance.

A 'walk the plank' option would work just as well.

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 25

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 3:21:53 AM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

So what is the story here? I just watched Tom's Royal Navy thread, and it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less). I would guess a kamikaze would have at least 500 lbs of explosives packed into it, eh?

But granted, ~150 500lbs bombs hitting during one engagement would surely do something?

So what would be most realistic? An algorithm in which any bomb would have some chance to cause some sort of crippling damage? One in which crew loses progressively made a ship unable to operate?

As a WWII history buff-groupie, not a true expert, I guess what I'm asking is this: is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Charles2222)

Post #: 26

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 10:18:37 AM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

"it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less)."

No. It damaged much more but wasn't catstrophic.

"is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?"

First of all it is tottaly unrealistic that so many planes at same time can hit so many times a ship. If you have 260 planes and have a frontage of 10 then only at best 26 have a chance to hit and of that only a couple of bombs will hit. Of course if they go all in an chain 260 can hit it but is unrealistic.

Second 199x500lb bombs are not fairly light, a filling of maybe 100kg of TNT would wreak a building. So it would wreak all upper works of a ship, will hit all anti aircraft guns, detonate all AA amno around, flotplanes and its fuel will spread fires everywhere before 50 hits. Admiral would probably dead or seriously injured if not inside the conning tower , captain and officials would be lucky if alive. Funnels would be blocked or destroyed. Smoke and debris and eventually fire goes trough ventilation. etc etc. Outside the armored box if its structure assuming dubiously it can sustain repeated shocks would be complete hell.

(in reply to Anthropoid)

Post #: 27

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 3:22:51 PM

Yamato hugger

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

"it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less)."

No. It damaged much more but wasn't catstrophic.

"is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?"

First of all it is tottaly unrealistic that so many planes at same time can hit so many times a ship. If you have 260 planes and have a frontage of 10 then only at best 26 have a chance to hit and of that only a couple of bombs will hit. Of course if they go all in an chain 260 can hit it but is unrealistic.

Second 199x500lb bombs are not fairly light, a filling of maybe 100kg of TNT would wreak a building. So it would wreak all upper works of a ship, will hit all anti aircraft guns, detonate all AA amno around, flotplanes and its fuel will spread fires everywhere before 50 hits. Admiral would probably dead or seriously injured if not inside the conning tower , captain and officials would be lucky if alive. Funnels would be blocked or destroyed. Smoke and debris and eventually fire goes trough ventilation. etc etc. Outside the armored box if its structure assuming dubiously it can sustain repeated shocks would be complete hell.

Thats the thing that boggles my mind. People whine that 199 "hits" didnt do much to her, but 232 out of 259 hits is just fine with them. All together now:

Edit: Oops, forgot about the port hits. 270 hits out of 259 bombers and Mutsu lived. Oh darn!

And people wonder why I flat refuse to allow 4E bombers on naval attack.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 4/3/2009 3:26:41 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 28

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 3:24:47 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

"it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less)."

No. It damaged much more but wasn't catstrophic.

"is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?"

First of all it is tottaly unrealistic that so many planes at same time can hit so many times a ship. If you have 260 planes and have a frontage of 10 then only at best 26 have a chance to hit and of that only a couple of bombs will hit. Of course if they go all in an chain 260 can hit it but is unrealistic.

Second 199x500lb bombs are not fairly light, a filling of maybe 100kg of TNT would wreak a building. So it would wreak all upper works of a ship, will hit all anti aircraft guns, detonate all AA amno around, flotplanes and its fuel will spread fires everywhere before 50 hits. Admiral would probably dead or seriously injured if not inside the conning tower , captain and officials would be lucky if alive. Funnels would be blocked or destroyed. Smoke and debris and eventually fire goes trough ventilation. etc etc. Outside the armored box if its structure assuming dubiously it can sustain repeated shocks would be complete hell.

Well its not clear "how" many bombs it took to actually sink Mutsu, I just know how many it took to finally sink her. Granted my argument is this - even with a repair dock at a level 9 port - if the Port is 100% damaged no ship shall be repaired, and surely not be able to survive period. Also even with a ship thats docked you still shouldn't beable to hit her with 200 bombs from 300 planes, thats pretty much unrealistic. I base that argument on fact it took hundreds of bombers to target refinaries and factories in germany, and I can't think of the percentage on top of my head, but were talking under 10% actually had bombs hit the buildings - let alone a ship.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 29

RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/5/2009 12:13:53 AM

LargeSlowTarget

Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline

WitP uses laser-guided bombs (Allies only)

. The real thing to whine about should be "B-24D Liberator x 259"? Even in the heaviest all-out raids against Rabaul the Allies managed only to send about 90 4E-bombers. But well, I'm just a JFB

.

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 30

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Holy Hell, hate to be this crew!

Page: [1] 2 next > >>