How To Reduce Micromanagement?

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How To Reduce Micromanagement? - 12/22/2013 3:24:24 PM

Mahatma

Posts: 130
Joined: 6/19/2013
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My games take too long on speed one, about 10 real time minutes per 60 minutes of game time. So that's 4 hours per day. The whole BFTB campaign would take me a very long time. I've tried alternating between speed 1 and 2 but it's about 5 times quicker and I start panicking when the SHTF and going to speed 1. What can I do?

Part of the reason is that I don't fully trust the AI to do what I want without micromanaging orders, which takes a long time. However I've grown to like the AI as my units appear to fan out into spearhead formation when being bombarded and other neat actions. When ordering an assault without a reorg point the AI does an impressive job of selecting a reorg location out of site from the enemy. What else is the AI doing well? My horror at column formation is well founded and fixing assaults gone wrong is another time when I have to micromanage.

Artillery can be set to AI controlled all the time.

So speed two could be done with the following I would think:
Few company orders. How much worse would this be? Defending locations would need manual control but assaults and such can be AI controlled.
AI artillery.
Giving move orders to Battalions with 'attack' checked to allow the AI to engage the enemy. Again the AI usually does a good job here. Critical is the use of specific orders regarding the aggro level, losses, ROF and such which takes quite a bit of skills.

One more question, how is it best to use probe orders? It's one order I don't use a lot.

< Message edited by Mahatma -- 12/22/2013 5:34:04 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 4:50:22 PM

jimcarravall

Posts: 642
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mahatma

My games take too long on speed one, about 10 real time minutes per 60 minutes of game time. So that's 4 hours per day. The whole BFTB campaign would take me a very long time. I've tried alternating between speed 1 and 2 but it's about 5 times quicker and I start panicking when the SHTF and going to speed 1. What can I do?

Part of the reason is that I don't fully trust the AI to do what I want without micromanaging orders, which takes a long time. However I've grown to like the AI as my units appear to fan out into spearhead formation when being bombarded and other neat actions. When ordering an assault without a reorg point the AI does an impressive job of selecting a reorg location out of site from the enemy. What else is the AI doing well? My horror at column formation is well founded and fixing assaults gone wrong is another time when I have to micromanage.

Artillery can be set to AI controlled all the time.

So speed two could be done with the following I would think:
Few company orders. How much worse would this be? Defending locations would need manual control but assaults and such can be AI controlled.
AI artillery.
Giving move orders to Battalions with 'attack' checked to allow the AI to engage the enemy. Again the AI usually does a good job here. Critical is the use of specific orders regarding the aggro level, losses, ROF and such which takes quite a bit of skills.

One more question, how is it best to use probe orders? It's one order I don't use a lot.

I have two suggestions.

1) Look into how human commanders at the Division, Corps, and Army level handled their command responsibilities.

One rule of thumb I ran across in reading Patton's wartime diaries was that he seldom commanded at lower than two echelons below his level of command. As an Army commander, he'd only issue specific orders down to units reporting to a Corps commander; as a Corps commander only issue orders down to units reporting to a Division commander; and as Division commander only order down to units reporting at a Brigade level.

One reason he did this was because he wanted to build up the quality of his lower echelon commanders by allowing them to operate on their own initiative (something that only occurs in the game occur in the form of the AI "learning" more about the formations it faces rather than accumulating a new bag of tactical tricks as Patton intended).

The second reason was that if he fussed at too low a level in the command structure, he lost sight of the operational goals assigned his command -- something that is very appropriate for BftB since one can tinker at the lowest levels to make a battalion attack work, but while the game is running you aren't necessarily seeing the breakdown of a brigade effort at the other end of the map.

2) Set your orders for your whole command by scrolling through subordinate units you want to control, and when you've set them, let the game run at top speed as you zoom out on the map and monitor progress across the whole battle space, and stopping the game to adjust orders when you notice breakdowns in the master plan.

I facilitate this by defining "save file as" file names which identify the scenario, the time of the save (day 1, 0600 for example), and a designation appended to the save time (I use alpha characters) that identifies the iteration of orders I've issued.

My "saves" folder contains basic scenarios has a simple day and time designation (used to standardize the set up if I choose to initiate the same game again after completion of the first run through, and a file with the same day and time designation plus an "a," or "b," or "c," (depending on which branch of orders are assigned to the game) appended to the end. In that manner I know which games are ready to be set up from the start, which have a set of standard orders to start, and, based on saving at later times and designating those, which are in process and ready to be run further.

A game with the same name and time designator, but one with an "a" appended to the end of the time, and another with a "b" appended reminds me that I "branched" friendly orders at that point in the game, and there are two different paths toward victory being pursued.

Using the process, I can explore all kinds of nuances to orders, and learn more about the game mechanics than simply running from start to finish without the benefit of a "look back" at how I got to the point where I had to address issues with the battle.

You'll find as you play there isn't any one secret to success in defeating the AI. It's an accumulation of good command habits obtained from observation of results that leads to improvement as a commander, and thus more success than failure on the digitally-recreated battlefield.

Hope this helps.

_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to Mahatma)

Post #: 2

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 8:14:34 PM

dazkaz15

Posts: 1267
Joined: 12/14/2012
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You can still have a lot of fun, and see some great Friendly AI at work,commanding at Bn, and Regiment level.
You will also get to see it do some really stupid things too. Fighting near rivers, and in terrain with restricted movement, I have noticed often causes the friendly AI pathing problems.

Of course the real attraction to this game though is the supper cunning enemy AI, that I don't think has an equal in any other war game I have played.

I would not recommend using the AI at Divisional level or above, although it can be interesting to see how it pans out as an experiment.
This is because the maps are too small for that level of command I feel. Its not very good economy of force to send a Division after an infiltrating enemy Platoon, or to block a road through the forest.

I often find that leaving the AI to command my units, ends with roughly historical results, which is a good thing I guess.

When I play "properly" I like to take my time, and often find myself, commanding at Coy level, and more importantly micro managing the artillery, which is very time consuming.
I do this because I am trying to get a win, from a scenario that in real life resulted in a catastrophic defeat, so it stands to reason that you are going to need to really work at it to achieve that.
This kind of play takes a very long time on large scenarios, and its not unusual for me to spend several weeks on the same battle.
I play it more like a grand master at chess, without an hour glass, that an RTS.

The beauty of this game is you can play it however you like, there is no right or wrong way, the only limiting factor is your free time, how patient you are, but more importantly, how much you want to win, playing as the under dog

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 12/22/2013 9:20:13 PM >

(in reply to jimcarravall)

Post #: 3

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 8:34:16 PM

johndoesecond

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/3/2010
Status: offline

Mahatma, how do you usually play? When you say you micromanage things, does that mean you usually issue orders at the company level?

Me? I usually issue orders to battalion HQs, rarely to single companies (and usually only for some special tasks; for that sometimes I even "lasso" few companies in order not to have micromanage too much).
Sometimes, depending on the terrain, scenario size, and some other factors, I even play in wider strokes, giving orders at the regimental level.

dazkaz15 is right, there could be different play styles, so you of course have the liberty to micromanage every single unit, but the whole point of this game is that you don't have to: that's what's so special about it, and liberating.

Ah, last thing: sorry for asking, but did you watch the tutorial movies?

< Message edited by johndoesecond -- 12/22/2013 9:52:02 PM >

(in reply to dazkaz15)

Post #: 4

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 8:57:44 PM

dazkaz15

Posts: 1267
Joined: 12/14/2012
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I find that a good general guide as to how much micro management you are doing is to keep an eye on the On map Boss's command load.

If it starts to get to high not only are you probably doing a bit to much micro, but you are also having a detrimental effect on the rest of the units.
So this is the time you need to start to re-combine some of those detached units to their HQ.

Quite often I find I will be concentrating on an important objective, using Bn and Coy level commands, while other less important objectives are under AI command, at Bn or regimental level.

(in reply to johndoesecond)

Post #: 5

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 10:35:33 PM

Mahatma

Posts: 130
Joined: 6/19/2013
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Johndoesecond,

I've watched the tutorial, read the HTTR strategy and even taken notes.

My old style of playing was speed 1, intense micro, OCD with checking every situation that was occurring. Occasional company orders but mostly Bn, never Div. Not too much artillery control. Lots of faffing with order settings (formation, frontage, checkboxes etc.)Unfortunately it all takes too long for me.

The best part of the game is that it's not necessary to micromanage. It's a chore to be clicking the same buttons and doing the same things over and over again like you would in your average strategy game like Hearts of Iron 3, Company of Heroes or Civ 4.

Jim,

I like the suggestion of pausing to issue orders then running on speed 3. Still, I think speed 3 is too quick because it's possible to miss reinforcements and if you miss them for 60 minutes or more then they suffer an order delay.

Dazkaz,

On speed 1 you'll never finish all the scenarios and too much micromanagement could be considered gamey imo. If the AI can't do it, I don't think we as players should be able to either for the most part.
---
So ideally I'd find a happy middle ground that allowed me to play on speed 2 with occasional pauses for reinforcements, and be still be competitive vs the AI. To do this I would need to know what the AI does well and doesn't do well. If the AI does it well, I let it. If the AI doesn't do it well, I do it. This way I can complete 1 day of game time in about an hour.(50 minutes to run 24 hours on speed 2, 10 minutes for pauses at the most)

This is what I've got:

1. AI controlled artillery except for a few artillery groups that can be manually issued orders. This is usually werfer regiments as they are so powerful.
2. Don't bother setting reorg points for some Bn orders as the AI can do this well.
3. Don't interrupt move orders with attack orders, simply check the 'attack' box as the AI is good at this.
4. Keep the majority of order at battalion level. Company level for defending covered areas or sending individual companies on recce. Attack are nearly always Bn.
5. Don't panic and issue orders that cause replans. Let the AI carry out the original order by itself.
6. Regarding point 5. the original orders need to be as good as possible. Probes when you want the units to bunker down if in trouble. Attacks when you really want the objective. Move orders with 'bypass' checked if you want to make ground quickly, 'attack' checked if you need to clear a route.
7. Drink coffee and stay focused.

What else can be added?

(in reply to johndoesecond)

Post #: 6

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 11:29:07 PM

dazkaz15

Posts: 1267
Joined: 12/14/2012
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I would keep an eye out for the Bn and Regt attacks nearing completion.

As soon as the hub of the attack looks like its a command delay's time from reaching its objective, intervene with a defend order with the facing, and formation you want at HQ level.
Or what I do at this stage is order individual Coy's to run the last of the battered enemy off the objective, and then place them into the best defensive locations on that objective.

At the same time you can give the HQ a move order with basing ticked, so that it also brings the support units with it, with proper way points, and pathing, so that it won't take a crazy route to the objective.

This is also very important because of the very annoying way, that the HQ AI tries to place the Bn into an all round defence on the objective instead of a defend in situ, in the formation that you set for the attack.

You set the attack formation because you see it as the best formation for that objective, so why the AI is then set to go into all round defence in column formation is beyond me.
I would very much like that to change, or at least have a tick box option for defend in the same formation as the attack formation, i.e in situ, on reaching the objective.

(in reply to Mahatma)

Post #: 7

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/22/2013 11:38:59 PM

Mahatma

Posts: 130
Joined: 6/19/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

I would keep an eye out for the Bn and Regt attacks nearing completion.

As soon as the hub of the attack looks like its a command delay's time from reaching its objective, intervene with a defend order with the facing, and formation you want at HQ level.
Or what I do at this stage is order individual Coy's to run the last of the battered enemy off the objective, and then place them into the best defensive locations on that objective.

At the same time you can give the HQ a move order with basing ticked, so that it also brings the support units with it, with proper way points, and pathing, so that it won't take a crazy route to the objective.

This is also very important because of the very annoying way, that the HQ AI tries to place the Bn into an all round defence on the objective instead of a defend in situ, in the formation that you set for the attack.

You set the attack formation because you see it as the best formation for that objective, so why the AI is then set to go into all round defence in column formation is beyond me.
I would very much like that to change, or at least have a tick box option for defend in the same formation as the attack formation, i.e in situ, on reaching the objective.

That's a nice trick giving the HQ a defend order when it is a command delay from reaching the objective.

Agree totally on the defensive set ups being poor. There is a lot of unnecessary moving and reorging by companies when securing an objective. Not sure how this can improved. A coding issue obviously. Which I sadly can't help with.

Do you want a multiplayer game Dazkaz? You appear to know what you're doing and so it would be a good challenge. I'm GMT time.

(in reply to dazkaz15)

Post #: 8

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/23/2013 8:51:22 AM

Phoenix100

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
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The reason so few people are in for H2H, Mahatma, is because it's very hard to regularly find the time. I'm guessing most people work by day and have families by night and at weekends. I can play during the day some days, as it happens. I'm in Brussels. But you can't play by day, right?

< Message edited by phoenix -- 12/23/2013 9:51:17 AM >

(in reply to Mahatma)

Post #: 9

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/23/2013 9:30:59 AM

Mahatma

Posts: 130
Joined: 6/19/2013
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Nah I have serious business to do during the day usually.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 10

RE: Teach me how to play on speed two. - 12/23/2013 8:31:49 PM

dazkaz15

Posts: 1267
Joined: 12/14/2012
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I'm not keen on multi player Mahatma, as I don't like to be tied to my computer.

I'm constantly being interrupted at home by, phone, Grandkids, Wife wanting a cup of tea, an aching back, dog driving me mad wanting to go out, then wanting to be let in again, I'm sure you get the picture

Also I'm not good at fast paced games. I like to be able to take my time, and work things out when I play.
If I get to a tricky bit Ill go make a cup of coffee, or go for a run down the sea front, or even sleep on the problem, and make my move in the morning.

So not only would I be no good at multi player, I would probably drive my opponent insane with all the pauses