Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Crown of Glory >> Crown Of Glory Support >> Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature?

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Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/23/2005 2:11:26 AM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline

Hi,
I'm in the middle of a game as Prussia because I like to be in the thick of it. I suppose because of my increasing power, everyone is declaring war on me left and right (except France since I made it force peace for over 2-years ,hehe) and I've been defeating them all in turn.

So, here's my situation, I believe in keeping the AI powers balanced more or less so if I defeat one, I won't always ask for a territory for myself (especially if I can't defend it) but might ask that they cede a province to another country. For instance, it annoys me when Sweden was owning Lombardy (or Picardy, or whatever) and Spain owned Croatia. Well, I defeated both countries and both times I asked them to give it back those provinces to France and Austria respectively. And both times the treaty wasn't ratified!! So not only did they not give back those provinces, they didn't give me anything I'd asked for myself as well!

I suspect it was not approved because the third party (France or Austria) didn't approve the treaty but I'm not sure. First, doesn't the defeated power have to do what I say. Second, even if France or Austria hated my guts, why would they refuse to have a province ceded back to them! Finally, even if they have the right to refuse the province I'm trying to get ceded to them, why does that cancel the entire treaty!!! Argghhh.

So, is that a bug or a feature? I'll stop my philanthropy if I must but honestly think that I should have the right to tell the surrendered country to do whatever I tell him to do (within limits of the point system of course). How would that work in a PBEM game?

Thanks
-J

Post #: 1

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/23/2005 6:32:19 AM

Naomi

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline

Did you include the "Terms of Surrender" clause in any of your treaties? Without it, you can't make the surrender parties do what you tell them to (as far as the victory points you earned against them allows you to go)?

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 2

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/23/2005 9:04:33 AM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline

Yes I did. It's the first thing I do.

(in reply to Naomi)

Post #: 3

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/23/2005 11:22:47 AM

Naomi

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Yes I did. It's the first thing I do.

I am trying to guess what was going on. When a nation surrenders to you, you gain a certain victory points that losing nation owes you, and it's compared to a creditor-to-debitor relationship. As your would-be beneficiary, whether France or Austria in your story, didn't have such a relationship as measured by victory points (it had no IOU to claim anything), they might well be unqualified (or prevented possibly by the game mechanics) to receive your largesse. Expecting Ral or Eric to correct me.

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 4

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/23/2005 11:39:23 AM

marirosa

Posts: 56
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline

I see you are mixing stuff here.

1.- You made SPA and SWE surrender TO YOU, so just ask them the provinces you believe they do not deserve to own (Lombardy, Croatia, wathever). If i am the surrender spanish or swedish diplomat, i would not like to see a neutral austrian or french dictating what you should ask me for my surrender TO YOU ALONE. In deed, i would use my Legal score to null and void the peace terms as there was third party diplomats involved. Also i would remember them they owe my country victory point equal to the sum of the provinces gifted to them, so in next SPA vs AUS war, AUS will start with -1250vp because we already ceded Croatia to them as a surrender term.

2.- As a Regional Major Power, you can redistribute your provinces in a way it would be more convenient to yourself. If you own Coratia and you thing AUS will make better use of it (or will increase their attitude towards you) do not hessitate to cede it to them in echange of something valuable for you (18 months forced peace for example).

(in reply to Naomi)

Post #: 5

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/23/2005 12:08:38 PM

Naomi

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline

Ya. Why not have the losing nation to cede provinces first to you before bestowing them later to your philanthropy target.

(in reply to marirosa)

Post #: 6

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/24/2005 7:46:14 PM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marirosa

I see you are mixing stuff here.

1.- You made SPA and SWE surrender TO YOU, so just ask them the provinces you believe they do not deserve to own (Lombardy, Croatia, wathever). If i am the surrender spanish or swedish diplomat, i would not like to see a neutral austrian or french dictating what you should ask me for my surrender TO YOU ALONE. In deed, i would use my Legal score to null and void the peace terms as there was third party diplomats involved. Also i would remember them they owe my country victory point equal to the sum of the provinces gifted to them, so in next SPA vs AUS war, AUS will start with -1250vp because we already ceded Croatia to them as a surrender term.

2.- As a Regional Major Power, you can redistribute your provinces in a way it would be more convenient to yourself. If you own Coratia and you thing AUS will make better use of it (or will increase their attitude towards you) do not hessitate to cede it to them in echange of something valuable for you (18 months forced peace for example).

1. Ahh, well point taken however, if they surrender to me, and don't do what I tell them to, then aren't they breaking the terms of the surrender? Next time I'm gonna punish them by just walking through there provinces plundering it all. :)

2. True, I hadn't thought of that. Good idea!

(in reply to marirosa)

Post #: 7

RE: Surrender Treaty Bug or Feature? - 7/24/2005 9:42:43 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

That is what's going on... if you include a third party in a treaty, even a terms of surrender (TOS) treaty, then they treat the treaty as any other treaty and can accept/reject it without regard to the TOS clause.

The AI perhaps could use some tweaking in this regard, when you're just trying to give them home provinces back. The current AI evaluation of treaties considers their attitude toward the nation offering the treaty and if it is too low then they won't even accept gifts from you.

Thanks for the report on this. It's a situation I hadn't really considered. I've added it to my list of things to look into.

Eric

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 8