Do we really need counters in a modern wargame?

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All Forums >> [General] >> Slitherine/Matrix Press Event 2016 - The Home of Wargamers >> Slitherine/Matrix Press Event 2015 - The Home of Wargamers >> Do we really need counters in a modern wargame?

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Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/25/2015 3:56:25 PM

Daniele

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There is a thriving conversation going on the Facebook page about a recent Blog post on the #HoW15 site!

https://www.facebook.com/matrixgamesltd?fref=nf

Be sureto check out also out nice minisite about the event! http://how15.slitherine.com/post3.html

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/29/2015 1:00:13 AM

wodin

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Yes.. definitely. If needs be you can forgo the NATO symbol and put a icon instead of the unit type to please those more visually minded..but counters are still a must have. I for one HATE huge 3D Tanks for instance sitting in a 40m hex..or bigger. Now for me that is immersion killing.

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/29/2015 4:13:04 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniele

There is a thriving conversation going on the Facebook page about a recent Blog post on the #HoW15 site!

https://www.facebook.com/matrixgamesltd?fref=nf

Be sureto check out also out nice minisite about the event! http://how15.slitherine.com/post3.html

I don't think we need counters OR 3D tanks.

Military units were not normally represented by counters during WW2 because a counter doesn't provide the kind of information a senior commander actually requires.

What would be much more useful would be a graphic that can be stretched to cover the desired area (the larger the area, the weaker the coverage) as was and is the case with real combat units.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/29/2015 6:16:38 PM

wodin

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Redmarkus I still view the circles above as "counters". I don't necessarily think they should only be your standard square. A shape that will change depending on footage would be great. I too have thought about this kind of look for a wargame. Again thinking outside the box. To me it's still a counter representing a unit with unit info displayed on it like type and name. For tacticla games I also like the counter\symbols that are used in the 2D map in the Graviteam games.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/29/2015 7:18:02 PM >

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/30/2015 10:31:21 AM

terry1040

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I do like Redmarkus approach.
It kind of defines a rather fresh idea to the subject that has to my knowledge not been realized in wargames so far.
Why not have areas of influence as your playing tools rather individual counters. It would also allow to get rid of the hex maps that many younger players do not like at all. Using Zones not just for graphical representation, but actively interacting with them (and similar installments like Fortifications, minefields etc.) would be an interesting approach for me.
Cheers
Terry

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 5/31/2015 1:34:32 AM

gunnergoz

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Do we need counters? It depends upon what gives you reason for suspension of disbelief so you can enjoy a game through and through. For me NATO counters work because I was raised on them in military manuals and history books. They tell me a lot. And they give me a sense of being in a "command post exercise" where I'm a military commander looking at a map.

Little tanks and army men do it for other people. Perhaps they harken back to happy hours playing with toy soldiers. Gosh knows I have enough of that experience too as a kid. I don't mind them if they are (1) accurate and (2) not cartoon-ish. But some people even like those kinds of graphics if they were raised on Warhammer comics, perhaps.

Once again - #1 rule is Know Thine Audience and intended customer base, and satisfy their needs and preferences. If a game can do both, great. If it can only do one or the other, then optimize the game for that audience in terms of complexity and content.

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/5/2015 10:12:13 PM

AstaSyneri

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Counters are simply an UI method. As others above I love clear-cut counters, but I also appreciate the ability to toggle a style, occasionally (iirc HoI does that).

IMO anybody with any military experience will feel familiar with counters, while those without may feel attracted by other representations of the units involved. Just as gunnergoz said: Know your customer!

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/11/2015 3:59:42 PM

Peter123

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I don't think we need counters OR 3D tanks.

Military units were not normally represented by counters during WW2 because a counter doesn't provide the kind of information a senior commander actually requires.

What would be much more useful would be a graphic that can be stretched to cover the desired area (the larger the area, the weaker the coverage) as was and is the case with real combat units.

I agree. Text, splines and little more would display units better than counters. Situation and important information like facing, stance, action etc should be apparent at a glance, just like military maps do.
Whenever possible I try to mod graphics to get away from counters:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/11/2015 11:24:21 PM

hellfish6

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^ I've always wanted a game like that. The (in)famous vaporware "Road to Moscow" had a map that looked very much like the map Peter123 posted and I've wanted it ever since.

The nascent Chain of Command game's latest dev video makes me wonder if they're close?

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/12/2015 6:02:25 AM

zakblood

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for alpha screens and video it looks and sounds like a big project, good luck with it and will be interested in seeing how it pans out, as the scale and looks does look very good, as soon as it gets to beta and gets filled out with graphic etc i bet it slows down a bit, so maybe a medium to high spec game by the looks of it, but very interesting all the same.

thanks

quote:

Will the tanks have actual armor values? Like if you hit a tank from the side, will it cause more damage than hitting the tank in the front?
Chain of Command is an operational-level wargame, so the combat routines will not take these details into account.

quote:

Is Chain of Command a Wargame or a Real Time Strategy game?
Chain of Command contains features of both Wargames and Real-Time Strategy games. Its Wargaming heritage brings attention to historical detail and overall realism while its real-time mechanics and visual detail are typically found in Real-Time Strategy games.

sorry just lost my interest altogether, real time and arcade by the sounds of it, plus steam means it will be a Gettysburg type game for the mass and not a real war game as such, ah well, already moved on

< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/12/2015 7:08:19 AM >

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RE: Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? - 12/28/2015 3:16:56 PM

Crossroads

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Do we really need counters in a modern wargame? Well that got my attention allright. He*l yes!

Nice mods Peter123 and Hellfish6

Here's a user mod for Campaign Series, by Maus Man. What he's done he's replaced the 3D counters altogether on 3D terrain he's modded. Terrain mod is out, his unit mod at least not yet. But like it very much. As an alternative to my counters, of course

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maus Man

As much as I like the 3d units, they didn't seem to fit with this terrain look. So I tried modding some units to give it the ol' counter look for the 3d view.