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Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:04:09 PM   
KDonovan


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does the Cruise Speed value mean anything to players? I usually focus on the Max Speed value when evaluating aircraft stats, and not even galance at the Cruise Speed. Does the cruise speed also factor in A2A combat?

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:08:09 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

does the Cruise Speed value mean anything to players? I usually focus on the Max Speed value when evaluating aircraft stats, and not even galance at the Cruise Speed. Does the cruise speed also factor in A2A combat?



Cruise speed determines aircraft range....

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:15:33 PM   
Nikademus


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and how effective AA is against the plane.

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:29:44 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

and how effective AA is against the plane.


Learn something new everyday...so in my mod...by "slowing" the planes down by rating them in terms of knots I have also made them more vulnerable to AA...nice!

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:31:15 PM   
Nikademus


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it can be good. it can also be bad.


USN tactical for example are way to vulnerable to IJN Flak, esp the DB's. I've made them far more evasive though i think i'll have to tweak em more for 9.1x

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:32:18 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

it can be good. it can also be bad.


USN tactical for example are way to vulnerable to IJN Flak, esp the DB's. I've made them far more evasive though i think i'll have to tweak em more for 9.1x



Evasive = MVR???

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:32:57 PM   
Nikademus


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nope. plays no factor at all vs. AA

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:34:52 PM   
treespider


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Duh...

Higher cruise speed with lower endurance to account for range changes from the higher cruise speed...

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:39:16 PM   
Nikademus


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yep, if you want a quick example, check the SBD in the editor for Nikmod 9.1 You'll see the adjustment made to keep it at range 3/extended 4

(same for TBD/TBF and Japanese army DB's)

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:41:32 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

yep, if you want a quick example, check the SBD in the editor for Nikmod 9.1 You'll see the adjustment made to keep it at range 3/extended 4

(same for TBD/TBF and Japanese army DB's)



At work now so i don't have my data with me... but I think my SBDs are something like range 6/8 or 5/7.

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:46:54 PM   
Nikademus


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yikes

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:47:51 PM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

yep, if you want a quick example, check the SBD in the editor for Nikmod 9.1 You'll see the adjustment made to keep it at range 3/extended 4

(same for TBD/TBF and Japanese army DB's)

Brilliant

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:51:36 PM   
Feinder


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I think cruise speed also affects it's spotting ability (I -think- I read that in the manual -way- back when).  Slower cruise = better chance to spot.  But I don't think it matters much.  My F5s spot stuff all the time, and their cruise speed is way faster than the PBYs.

-F-

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:53:33 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

yikes



I was kind of skeert myself ....

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:54:02 PM   
Nikademus


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AFB!



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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 5:59:07 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

AFB!




Yeah but their escorts will be sucking wind early on...IIRC.

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 6:00:16 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Brilliant

Now you've made me thirsty and its only lunchtime here...

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 6:02:48 PM   
Big B

 

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It's only breakfast here!

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 6:04:39 PM   
Nikademus


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now YOU have made me thirsty too.



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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 6:05:50 PM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

now YOU have made me thirsty too.



Before 8:30am?!

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/18/2007 6:09:08 PM   
Nikademus


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somewhere in the world....its always Beer-thirty.....



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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/27/2007 12:31:09 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

At work now so i don't have my data with me... but I think my SBDs are something like range 6/8 or 5/7.


According to the narative by James Ramage, commander of VB-10 flying form the Enterprise in the Battle of the Philipine Sea, they were able to hit the Japanese at 300 miles with SBDs. They also were carrying 1000 lb bombs for this mission. He also comments somewhere in the story that the SB2Cs had 50-75 more miles of range. I've read elsewhere that the TBF had poorer range than the SB2C, though better range than the SBD, so it was probably somewhere in the middle.

Link to Story

Bill

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/27/2007 12:49:55 PM   
Barb


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Range is relative... as first the CAP must to take off, then the slowest aircrafts (torpedo bombers) takes off and formed, then dive bombers (as they are faster a bit) and the last airborne was the fighter escort. Then you will need a fuel reserve to wait landing. In a battle of Philipine sea (Marianas turkey shoot) the landing only took 2-3 hours, taking off and forming took also an hour or so.
So TBs needed the largest endurance (thus the longest range if its only A-B flight without forming and waiting). The range is also dependent on wind heading and strenght. And in carrier operations twice (as carriers must be heading against wind in take off and landing operations)




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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/28/2007 1:20:48 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Range is relative... as first the CAP must to take off, then the slowest aircrafts (torpedo bombers) takes off and formed, then dive bombers (as they are faster a bit) and the last airborne was the fighter escort. Then you will need a fuel reserve to wait landing. In a battle of Philipine sea (Marianas turkey shoot) the landing only took 2-3 hours, taking off and forming took also an hour or so.
So TBs needed the largest endurance (thus the longest range if its only A-B flight without forming and waiting). The range is also dependent on wind heading and strenght. And in carrier operations twice (as carriers must be heading against wind in take off and landing operations)


In the Mariannas, the US carriers had to turn east, away from the battle, to launch. In the strike, the SBDs had the shortest range. The SB2C Helldiver stayed in service after the TBF partially because it had better range. The Hellcat had better range than the SBD. The TBF was also fast for a torpedo bomber. It was comparable in speed to the SBD, though slower than the SB2C.

The strike in the Battle of the Philippine Sea was 300 miles from the carriers. In the two SBD squadrons on the strike, they only lost three aircraft due to running out of fuel. The only loss in VB-10 was after a pilot was waved off on landing and he ran out going around again. The crew was rescued.

The SBD-5 did have wet points at the shackles on the wings which allowed two 58 gallon drop tanks to be fitted, though from all I've read, they were only used for the search mission and were not used when on a strike mission. The -5 is the version used in The Battle of the Philippine Sea.

Bill

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/28/2007 9:59:30 AM   
Barb


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"In the Mariannas, the US carriers had to turn east, away from the battle, to launch." - and also to land the planes, so in the moment of landing, carriers were sailing away again.

I have read somewehere that total number of 200+ aircrews has not landed on carriers, of which 159 were rescued by destroyers, subs and patrol planes later.
Of course of those 200+ aircrews could be some 80-100(wiki claimed 80) planes not reaching the carrier decks. Many of the planes were damaged, aircrews wounded, fuel tanks leaking. Many planes just landed into water near the carriers because lack of fuel when waiting on landing permission. Also a one third of planes landed at other than their own carrier.

Wiki:
"Knowing his aviators would have difficulty finding their carriers, Mitscher decided to fully illuminate his carriers shining searchlights directly up into the night, despite the risk of attack from submarines and night-flying aircraft, and the picket destroyers fired starshells to help the planes find the task groups. Despite this, 80 of the returning aircraft were lost, some crashing on flight decks, the majority going into the sea. Many of the crews were rescued over the next few days."

So an airstrike on that range was not normal practise. "Normal" practise could be 200-250 miles max.


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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/28/2007 1:03:56 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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Well the difference between the maximum range of ONE aircraft and the practical maximun range of a raid is the time lost in taking off (the first AC having to wait for the last one), of organizing formation in the air, of finding the target (ships moved, navigation had no GPS) and of wiating for landing back to base, plus a reserve of in case of emergency.

(in the latter example, all numbers are fictionnal)
Also if TBF have a range of say 240 and F6F also a range of 240, F6F escorting TBF will only have a range of 180 because they won't have the endurance to escort all the times the bombers... and taking off later to just escort the bombers in the dangerous area (as did the VIII Fighter Command in Europe) was very hard to do in the Pacific and AFAIK never attempted. Also most if not all CV had not a deck big enough to launch all their AC at the same time. The deck was full, all AC were launched, and then the deck was filled again by AC coming out of the hangar and a new wave was launched.

Of course none of the above is modelized in WITP. And of course modelizing any of these will only increase the super CAP problem.

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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/28/2007 2:39:50 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

So an airstrike on that range was not normal practise. "Normal" practise could be 200-250 miles max.



That attack was the longest range attack attempted by US carrier planes during the war. It was an extreme case. Two entire squadrons of SBDs did fly 300 miles lugging 1000 lb bombs, attack the enemy carriers, and made it home with only three losses.

In stock, the SBD has a range of 3 for standard and 4 for extended missions. In my tweak, I upped it to 4/5. I also made the standard armament 1000 lbs. On a 300 mile mission, it will carry a 500 lb bomb, it will only carry a 1000 lb out to 240 miles. The standard scouting armament for the SBD was a 500 lb bomb, the standard strike load was 1000 lbs. They often carried a pair of 100 lb bombs too.

The SB2C-4 could carry a single 1000 lb internally and a pair of 500 lb on the wing racks, or 8 X 5 inch rockets and a 1000 lb bomb.

For some reason all US dive bombers carry 500 lb bombs in stock. CHS carried this over. The version of RHS I have installed (which is a couple of versions out of date) has the SB2C carrying a 500 lb, the SBD-3 carrying a 1000 lb, and the SBD-5 carrying a 100lb and 2 X 250 lb.

With SBDs only carrying 500 lb bombs, they are nowhere near the ship killers they were in real life. Especially with Japanese cruiser armor being tough enough to resist Allied 500 lb bombs. In the first campaign I played (vs the AI), the Aoba got plastered with 500 lb bombs and got up to 99% Sys damage, but she stayed afloat for weeks absorbing attack after attack. She took 20 hits on some days, but wouldn't sink.

Bill



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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/28/2007 2:51:07 PM   
treespider


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From Frans Bonne's website:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/dougsbd.html

Review of war operation on the European front revealed that the Dauntless lacked a number of vital features. The SBD-3 made those shortcomings good, and was ordered in an increasing number. It featured full self sealing tanks, armor protection for the crew and vital parts, 2 × 0.50 inch (12,7 mm) forward firing guns, 2 × 0.30 inch (7,62 mm) trainable rearward firing guns, removal of flotation devices and other skinning. Its powerplant was 1 × R-1820-52 Cyclone radial, rated at 1,000 hp (746 kW), and it had a length of 32 ft 8 in (9.96 m), empty and maximum take-off weights of 6,345 lb and 10,400 lb (2.878 kg and 4.717 kg) respectively, max level speed of 250 mph (402 km/h), cruising speed of 152 mph (245 km/h) at optimum altitude, max range of 1,580 miles (2.543 km) on a scouting mission, typical range of 1,345 miles (2.165 km) on a bombing mission, initial climb rate of 1,190 ft (363 m) per minute, and service ceiling of 27,100 ft (8260 m)
Number built: 585

I use the SBD-3 because that is what is included in CHS. The SBD-5 had an upgraded engine rated at 1200 hp. For my stats on the SBD I used Command at Sea by Larry Bond...which rated the SBD-3 with a cruise Range of 1260nm, a combat Cruise speed of 170 knots and top speed of 213 knots...

When you convert Bonne's 1345 statute mile range of the typical bombing range you get 1169 nm which is less than CaS's 1260nm. When you convert the 1260nm range of CaS you get 1449 statute miles which is less than the 1580 miles of Bonne's maximum range.


So I opted to use CaS's numbers which are slightly higher than Bonne's bombing range and slightly less than Bonne's scouting range...

Using 1260nm range with 170knot cruise speed gives an endurance of 511 and results in hex ranges of 8 extended and 6 normal...or 8x60=480 x2 = 960 statute miles and 6x60 = 360 x 2 = 720 statue miles.



< Message edited by treespider -- 5/28/2007 2:52:40 PM >


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RE: Cruise Speed Value - 5/29/2007 1:21:18 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Review of war operation on the European front revealed that the Dauntless lacked a number of vital features. The SBD-3 made those shortcomings good, and was ordered in an increasing number. It featured full self sealing tanks, armor protection for the crew and vital parts, 2 × 0.50 inch (12,7 mm) forward firing guns, 2 × 0.30 inch (7,62 mm) trainable rearward firing guns, removal of flotation devices and other skinning. Its powerplant was 1 × R-1820-52 Cyclone radial, rated at 1,000 hp (746 kW), and it had a length of 32 ft 8 in (9.96 m), empty and maximum take-off weights of 6,345 lb and 10,400 lb (2.878 kg and 4.717 kg) respectively, max level speed of 250 mph (402 km/h), cruising speed of 152 mph (245 km/h) at optimum altitude, max range of 1,580 miles (2.543 km) on a scouting mission, typical range of 1,345 miles (2.165 km) on a bombing mission, initial climb rate of 1,190 ft (363 m) per minute, and service ceiling of 27,100 ft (8260 m)
Number built: 585

I use the SBD-3 because that is what is included in CHS. The SBD-5 had an upgraded engine rated at 1200 hp. For my stats on the SBD I used Command at Sea by Larry Bond...which rated the SBD-3 with a cruise Range of 1260nm, a combat Cruise speed of 170 knots and top speed of 213 knots...


CHS has both the -3 and -5. The -5 is at the bottom of the DB. Slot 249.

Most -3s came from the factory with a single .30 in the rear. Between Coral Sea and Midway, all carrier born SBDs were field modified to have twin .30s. The last few production -3s had twin .30s from the factory.

The -3 was pretty universal in fleet service by the beginning of the war. The -1s had been relegated to the Marines from the beginning and the -2s were passed on to the Marines when the -3s became available. The -1 had a much shorter range than any subsequent models. Extra fuel tanks were added to the -2 and subsequent models.

The -4 was very similar to the -3 except it had a constant speed propeller and a 24 V electrical system (the -3 was 12 V). The -5 was a major change with more power, aerodynamic improvements, and a reflector gunsight in place of the tube sight. The -5 also introduced the ability to carry drop tanks on the wing pylons, as I mentioned yesterday. The -6 came along too late when the SB2C was beginning to become available in large numbers. Most were used for training.

quote:


When you convert Bonne's 1345 statute mile range of the typical bombing range you get 1169 nm which is less than CaS's 1260nm. When you convert the 1260nm range of CaS you get 1449 statute miles which is less than the 1580 miles of Bonne's maximum range.

So I opted to use CaS's numbers which are slightly higher than Bonne's bombing range and slightly less than Bonne's scouting range...

Using 1260nm range with 170knot cruise speed gives an endurance of 511 and results in hex ranges of 8 extended and 6 normal...or 8x60=480 x2 = 960 statute miles and 6x60 = 360 x 2 = 720 statue miles.


That's much further than I had calculated from any source.

Bill

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