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Gameplay issues - 11/8/2007 6:04:33 AM   
dreamtheatervt


Posts: 483
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Right now I have few major gripes pertaining to game play / play practice.

I've found that players have a complete lack of explosiveness, and I see it in different situations.
- On a designed screen pass, the receiver takes a long time to catch the ball, and start moving upfield. On a jailbreak receiver screen, the receiver should immediately run upfield behind blockers after receiving the ball. In all my practice plays, the receiver catches the ball and SLOWLY turns upfield in place, and then procedes to walk upfield, which inevitablely ends up as a tackle for loss when a decent gain should have occured.

- Defensive players lack explosiveness off the ball. Blitzing linebackers are slow and sluggish, resulting in ineffective blitzes. I even designed a pass play where there is no one is able to pick up two linebackers coming right through the A gaps, and the QB still had time to dropback and throw the pass. This effectively ruins corner and safety blitzes because if a blitzing backer can't make a play, a defender starting further away doesn't stand a chance.

Lob passes are fired like bullet passes. Makes screen passes look unrealistic and also results in too many incomplete passes for such a high percentage play.

Open-field running could use some improvement. Ball carriers don't read and utilize blocks well, they all try to take it outside. I see cut-back lanes develop and go unused and ball carriers not running off their blockers butt.

I am running the most recent version, but these have always been problems.

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RE: Gameplay issues - 11/8/2007 2:31:41 PM   
simmer

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 11/20/2004
From: Pittsburgh,Pa
Status: offline 		Use the editor that JD released....The players can be tinkered with to be effective.

(in reply to dreamtheatervt)
Post #: 2
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/8/2007 4:05:05 PM   
Deft

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline 		Play design is a big contributor to your screen plays.  If you can have your receiver moving when he gets the ball he won't have to accelerate from stopped, resulting in a big reduction in time wasted.  Also make sure you don't have anyone directly adjacent to the receiver when he catches it because it will slow his progress down as well.

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Post #: 3
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/8/2007 6:01:16 PM   
dreamtheatervt


Posts: 483
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Simmer - I'm not one for messing with game constants.  I'd don't want to fix one thing, and create two new problems.  Across the board players seem to lack explosiveness off the ball.

Deft - Giving an excuse for the problem doesn't fix the problem.  Within two strides a player should be at about 90-95% of their top speed. If the player has to stop, whether by design or necessity, he should be able to get going in a relatively short amount of time.

< Message edited by dreamtheatervt -- 11/8/2007 6:02:21 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/8/2007 10:19:04 PM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline 		I just tested a few screens off a three receiver set.  The player looks to be able to get up to speed in the plays I made, and he is a fullback.

Timing is the key.  I give the quarterback a seven yard drop and a short wait state to allow the guard to pull and the fullback to set up in the backfield.  In this case, the fullback slides out into the backfield flat, has a short wait state, and goes into his pattern.  This allows the guard to be positioned in front of the fullback and any blitzing linebackers to commit to the pass rush.

On this play, the fullback takes the pass close to the line of scrimmage in full stride.

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Post #: 5
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/9/2007 12:06:51 AM   
Deft

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline 		One of the real challenges with this is the timing always changes with the talent of the players.  I think global increasing the acceleration of players is a good approach.

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Post #: 6
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/9/2007 3:17:35 AM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

Deft stated: One of the real challenges with this is the timing always changes with the talent of the players.


I agree. One must also consider which position is the primary receiver. If the halfback is the primary receiver, then one must take into account that he will generally be quicker than a fullback running the same route.

quote:

I think global increasing the acceleration of players is a good approach.


The problem is that all players are accelerated.

Acceleration in Maximum Football is based on the Speed of the player rather than a separate Acceleration skill attribute.


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Post #: 7
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/9/2007 3:29:24 AM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

dreamtheatervt stated:On a designed screen pass, the receiver takes a long time to catch the ball, and start moving upfield ... In all my practice plays, the receiver catches the ball and SLOWLY turns upfield in place, and then procedes to walk upfield, which inevitablely ends up as a tackle for loss when a decent gain should have occured.


As I recall, I saw this when the player received the pass after his pattern had ended. Are you seeing this?

quote:

Defensive players lack explosiveness off the ball. Blitzing linebackers are slow and sluggish, resulting in ineffective blitzes. I even designed a pass play where there is no one is able to pick up two linebackers coming right through the A gaps, and the QB still had time to dropback and throw the pass. This effectively ruins corner and safety blitzes because if a blitzing backer can't make a play, a defender starting further away doesn't stand a chance.


This is something I saw when testing Canadian football plays a few months ago. The quarterback had such a quick release that blitzing linebackers had a tough time getting to him.

quote:

Lob passes are fired like bullet passes. Makes screen passes look unrealistic and also results in too many incomplete passes for such a high percentage play.


Some time ago, another community member brought up that lobs were still pretty quick.

quote:

Open-field running could use some improvement. Ball carriers don't read and utilize blocks well, they all try to take it outside. I see cut-back lanes develop and go unused and ball carriers not running off their blockers butt.


There is actually some pretty cool code in the game for running up field. I am not sure how blockers affect that code.

quote:

I am running the most recent version, but these have always been problems.


There have been improvements in these areas, but there always can be more. There may not be many more code changes for 2.x, but these are things to keep in mind for 3.0.

Thank you for your continued feedback.

- Marauders

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Post #: 8
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/9/2007 3:34:49 AM   
Tbird


Posts: 1187
Joined: 12/15/2004
Status: offline 		Backup your constant file and then make changes

if it's not your liking then overwrite it with the original


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Post #: 9
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/9/2007 4:34:13 AM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
quote:

Acceleration in Maximum Football is based on the Speed of the player rather than a separate Acceleration skill attribute.


Actually that's not quite correct.

Acceleration is controlled by the players Agility Skill. The higher the agility, the faster he can accelerate to his stop speed. And it's the top speed that is controlled by the Speed skill. The Agility skill is used for rate of turn as well.

If you wish players to have higher overall acceleration you can change the PhysicsBaseAgility in the constants dat to something slightly higher. It's default is 0.15 so setting it to 0.25 may yield the results you are after. The players Agility skill is a percentage modifier of that base value.

Please also keep in mind that these numbers went through a lot of play balance testing prior to release. So changing the values for higher player acceleration or overall speed will likely result in higher sacks or generally lower offensive production because the defense is so much faster.

If you're playing in arcade mode and you're finding that the pass rush is not strong enough, increasing some of these values might help that, but you're less likely to get statistical results that are reasonable.

As well, as others have noted, much of the results are of play design. I find that the defense is very quick to react with linebackers very often being able to cut off an outside running play (assuming the blocking doesn't catch them). One missed block and outside running is usually stopped for a loss or extremely limited gain.

Timing pass patterns need to take into account the players involved. For example, you may design a play for the skills of one team and it works well, but when used for another team, the receiver involved might be slower and not get to the target point in time.

Running backs do make use of holes opened by the offensive line if the hole is large enough. And what constitutes a 'large enough hole' depends on the RB skills and where he is on the field when the blocks are made.

I've found these sorts of adjustments often come down to personal preference. What one person says isn't quite right might be exactly what someone else is looking for.


thanks
David

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Post #: 10
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/9/2007 6:09:26 AM   
Deft

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline 		I universally increased the accels like David mentioned and saw my sacks go up (partially because my plays were offtiming but also from heated rushes). Screens still didn't work great because defenders pursuit has increased in response as the receiver has.

I think the pass and receiver logic could use some work, short passes that are on target and in stride are hard to complete and read passes are always away from the QB making all slants that aren't time throws, corner routes.

But otherwise, my wife hates this game.  Which means I am having a great time.

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Post #: 11
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/12/2007 11:57:36 PM   
dreamtheatervt


Posts: 483
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Just a follow up...

It appears my problem with the slow receiver was a computer performance issue.  When I ran the same play on my laptop today, I was getting the desired result from the receiver.

I have yet to play with the constants to make players more explosive, but I still see that as a problem that needs to be addressed.

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Post #: 12
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/13/2007 12:16:51 AM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamtheatervt

Just a follow up...

It appears my problem with the slow receiver was a computer performance issue.  When I ran the same play on my laptop today, I was getting the desired result from the receiver.


Hmm well, all the physics and animations in the game are coded to take frame rate into consideration, but there does come a point where the frame rates are too low for even that to work.

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Post #: 13
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/13/2007 2:15:13 AM   
dreamtheatervt


Posts: 483
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Well, now I have a new complaint :)

Running backs slow down to much to get pitches from QB.  They don't slow down on handoffs though.  And don't worry, from now on if I find something wrong, it will be from my laptop until I get my desktop up and running again.

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Post #: 14
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/13/2007 2:25:21 AM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
quote:

Running backs slow down to much to get pitches from QB.  They don't slow down on handoffs though.  And don't worry, from now on if I find something wrong, it will be from my laptop until I get my desktop up and running again.


If the RB is not in full stride when he gets the pitch, he won't stop. Again, the same play used on a different team would show different results because the RB may be quicker.

< Message edited by David Winter -- 11/13/2007 2:27:07 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Gameplay issues - 11/13/2007 3:23:12 AM   
jdhalfrack


Posts: 293
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: Springfield, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deft
But otherwise, my wife hates this game.  Which means I am having a great time.

HAHAHAHHA

Greatest quote ever.

< Message edited by jdhalfrack -- 11/13/2007 3:24:08 AM >

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Post #: 16
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