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Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA

 
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Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/29/2008 10:32:55 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		Just got into my first PBEM game.... but am kinda curious about something...

I'm playing the allies, and as usual, I'm trying to get my ships outta the SRA on a mad-dash to safety.

Is there a good rule of thumb about "how many" ships I should lose by the time I'm outta there?

Because each ship that gets sunk, even PC's and PG's, I get this "omg the war is so lost for me" feeling.... and I KNOW that a lot of ships aren't going to make it.

I'm mostly talking about transports and little craft..... I've got most of my actual warships DD and above outta there, or at least in a position to if I lose them, I lose them because I chose to in battle.

In fact, in my aar that will soon be updated, you'll be able to hear about the great naval battle of Palembang Straights.

A teaser, in the last turn, as my PoW and 2 DD escorts departed Singapore, I forgot to click on a react range to 0, and left it at 6. (Yeah, 10000 mouseclicks for turn one, and I was one click short on the most important ship that had a chance)... but I got lucky, and m 2 DD's and PoW raked a collection of DD's and AP's landing. The PoW took 7 shells and a torp, and ended up with, lol, 2 sys, 1 float, and 1 fire damage.

Now, I've got a good number of CL's and DD's, including the Repulse, formed in a TF and are going to strike the landing fleet again.... however... I noticed the BB's haruna and Kongo have moved on an apparent path to that landing sight... so there might be a big battle, might not.


But anyhow, that's besides the point... the question is, should I rejoice that "any" ships made it out of the SRA in a PBEM game, or should I be able to get "most" of my ships out of the SRA...
Post #: 1
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/29/2008 10:57:40 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		If you loose them all then... you'll only have a bajillion AK/AP's by wars end instead of a bajillion and 12.
I try to play as if I had to write the letters to loved ones at home.  They may be sprites but they are MY sprites!  If you play like it's just a game then the fun can be drained out pretty quick (especially against the AI). 
There are ways to limit your losses (ie: single ship TF's) but they have an odor of gaminess about them.  But, really, anything that escapes is bonus.

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 2
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/29/2008 11:19:18 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

If you loose them all then... you'll only have a bajillion AK/AP's by wars end instead of a bajillion and 12.
I try to play as if I had to write the letters to loved ones at home.  They may be sprites but they are MY sprites!  If you play like it's just a game then the fun can be drained out pretty quick (especially against the AI). 
There are ways to limit your losses (ie: single ship TF's) but they have an odor of gaminess about them.  But, really, anything that escapes is bonus.

Good post. In real life a lot of ships were lost fleeing the SRA, as the allies really tried to fight it out and didn't realize the outcome. It's a guess, but based on the accounts I have read I would guess that only 1 in 3 ships made it to safety. Japanese air power sunk many.

As to single ships TFs though they certainly happened as ships often fled at whatever speed they were capable of, or in whatever manner they could arrange. Many of the patrol craft didn't have the legs to make it to Oz in one jump.

I seem to recall a story about a patrol ship that fled Java. It started out as part of a group of 2 or 3 but after Jap air sunk one and disabled another the ship continued on its own. They hopped islands traveling only at night and hiding in coves during the day. Finally when they ran out of islands to hop they made a mad dash for the Oz coast.

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RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/29/2008 11:38:39 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		Good "rule of thumb" for this is to try and give each one a usefull task during the process of evacuation. Might be only "go to "x" island and pick up the supply" before the Japs get it (think of it as "rescue the missionaries" if you like). Removes the "gamey feeling", and makes any successes much more satisfying.

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 4
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/29/2008 11:54:56 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Rule of thumb?

Not sure if one exists on this, but I'll venture to say this: don't sweat non-critical hull losses until you get to about 125-150 or so. That seems to be the butcher's bill for me in a couple of games where I've actively tried to evacuate troops and supplies.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 5
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 12:43:39 AM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Here's (an incomplete) list of Allied shipping sunk during the SRA campaign:  http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/allied_losses.html  Bearing in mind that there are probably ships missing off of the list, it shows just how heavy the casualties were.

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Post #: 6
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 12:47:28 AM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline 		Some ships are more useful than others. As the allies you are usually short of APs, DDs (but the ones in the SRA are the worst ones you have), Minelayers (if you like that sort of thing) and the AS/AD ships. All but the last ones for the whole war, so I try and save these if I can.

You can make a lot of AS/AD but they take six months or so to arrive. And while most DD losses hurt the Dutch and old US DDs in the SRA are poor and therefore fairly expendable.

Personally I usually split Force Z but usually risk it in the SRA. If you think you can get Repulse or PoW against any Japanese BB I would do it. These are not in my opinion that valuable to you at this stage of the war, while his are. Plus either one can devestate a Japanese BB (or anything else) with just 2-3 shells. Even damaging them usually knocks them out of their useful part of the war - when the Japanese are expanding. But be warned that you may be sunk by his air units. Repulse for a couple of Nells to flak is not a good exchange rate. Remember that with maximum speed and return to base these can move up to 10 hexes (the Cruisers sometimes 12) in one day so you need not hold them close to the action (and his Nells). Also if KB shows up try and flee all your warships. It is good to get the Japanese to commit KB to the SRA as it gives you a lot of freedom in the Pacific. But it does end your fun there. At least with ships.

The Cruisers of the SRA are all of poor quality. Again I would risk these against landings if you think you can get there without being spotted. Yes the escorts may sink you (and probably will) but you can lose a second rate CL better than he can handle one of his being seriously damaged. Plus his troops are only vulnerable when on ship. I like to operate them in small TFs as they are very vulnerable to running into a large Japanese warship TF or more likely a big Nell/Betty strike.

Try and get your opponent to escort each landing force and have a large portion of his bombers on Naval search/attack. This will slow him down as he can attack less places at once and it reduces his anti airfield & troop bombing. Get those hopeless Hudsons & Dutch bombers on naval attack to encourage him to fly LCAP. Better they cover his ships than sweep your airfields.

The retreat from the SRA should be a fun time for the allies. You know you are going to lose it all so there is no pressure. None of the units are especially valuable and you can always blame the lousy politicians for the hopeless position you find yourself in You don't lose the game here. But you can get plenty of little victories, slow down the Japanese and teach him caution. The real crunch comes after the SRA if and when/where he goes for his knockout blow.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 7
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 1:08:35 AM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		Well I tend to view my sprites as people also. Each loss hurts, so to speak.

In fleeing the PI, I have some ships in single ship tf's, some tf's have 2 or 3 ships. It really all depends on the speed of the ship and what that ship is doing, where it's going. I tried to send orders for my ships to go to a number of different locations, so I don't telegraph where I'm going (even though they all go to the same place... anywhere not in the SRA). That has also impacted my tf composition.

I don't want to do anything gamey, though, because gamey is well gamey. And this is war!

(in reply to Hoplosternum)
Post #: 8
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 1:08:38 AM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		good question...here's my thoughts....based on a stock game...in terms of 3 different catagories....
1) need to be saved
2) would be nice to save, but expendable
3) can be expended

Warships
BB's: IMO the PoW and Repulse need to be saved. They serve as a fleet in being during the entire Japanese conquest of the SRA, and are your best battleships in the beginning of the game in terms of experience, speed, and AA firepower.
CA's: The Housten and Exeter are Expendable IMO. The Housten will respawn as a better heavy cruiser, while the Exeter only sports 6x8in guns.
CL's:
- The Boise falls into the second catagory. With 15x6" guns she will be useful throughout the war, but on the other hand is the only ship that can dish it out to the Japanese Heavy CA's in the SRA. So losing her to airpower is a waste, while losing her while taking down several AP's with troops or a few CL's, DD's is well worth it.
- The CL Fiji needs to be saved IMO. The British lack good cruisers throughout the war.
- The C-Class, D-Class, and Dutch CL's are all expendable. Their lack of range makes them pitiful assets anywhere other than the DEI.
DD's: - all DD's (except the British ones) are expendable. While the Dutch DD's have good AA value, their short leg's prevent them from any serious escort service. The USN 4 stackers are just pitful, even though they eventually upgrade to APD's later in the war. The Brit DD's will be needed to send back to England everytime Churchill comes calling.

Auxillarys
AVD's/AV's: These fall into the second catagory, not esential as all AVD's/AV's will become useless once the allies get more Aviation Support units than they know what to do with. But they do become handing in the opening months of the war.
AS/AD/AR's - these are most saves as the allies lack necessary support ships early in the war.

Transports
AP's: - must saves. When that allies begin their offensives, every AP should be treated as gold. It only takes 4-5 AP's to load up a Inf Div, so losing even that many can be annoying later on in the game when you want to committ to multiple offensives with as many as 20 Inf Divisions. The AP's worth 2000 are especially good as they can unload the fastest on the beachs decreasing disablements
AK's/TK's: - expendable...you get so many. Better to use them to sneak out as much resources/oil/fuel/supply as possble, even if they get sunk with their cargo, the japanese still can't get to it.

Escorts
PC/SC/PG's: Expendable. The Allies get so many, and they aren't even that good at ASW warfare. The Allied DE's will be the ones that wind up slaughtering japanese subs.
MSW's: I would save these. Your Japanese oppenent may lay mines at all your little outposts with subs early on....and if not he will definetly mine all his defenses. I know they respawn but once the allied offensives get rolling, you'll seem to lose them at a faster rate than they will respawn.

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Post #: 9
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 1:23:59 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		One thought about the Dutch CLs.  I used to consider these HIGHLY expendable as the USN gets a ton of CLs later in the game.  However, I discovered that they are great for fast transport missions.  THere armor, speed and guns make them pretty useful for getting in and out of hostile areas....now I wish I'd been more careful with them.  

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Post #: 10
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 5:29:28 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The Prince of Wales is an awesome FLAK platform. Pairing it with US CV's seems like a great idea, as is saving it for this purpose.

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Post #: 11
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 6:09:59 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I like to stash the C and D class RN CLs in Karachi/Aden to use when Winston demands a CL. It allows me to keep both the good ones and the PP.

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fair winds,
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Post #: 12
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 9:10:01 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

The Cruisers of the SRA are all of poor quality. Again I would risk these against landings if you think you can get there without being spotted. Yes the escorts may sink you (and probably will) but you can lose a second rate CL better than he can handle one of his being seriously damaged. Plus his troops are only vulnerable when on ship. I like to operate them in small TFs as they are very vulnerable to running into a large Japanese warship TF or more likely a big Nell/Betty strike.




I wouldn´t call the Boise "poor quality"!!!

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Post #: 13
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 4:02:46 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well I tend to view my sprites as people also. Each loss hurts, so to speak.

In fleeing the PI, I have some ships in single ship tf's, some tf's have 2 or 3 ships. It really all depends on the speed of the ship and what that ship is doing, where it's going. I tried to send orders for my ships to go to a number of different locations, so I don't telegraph where I'm going (even though they all go to the same place... anywhere not in the SRA). That has also impacted my tf composition.

I don't want to do anything gamey, though, because gamey is well gamey. And this is war!


Well I don't like to waste assets either believe it or not Nor to treat my pixels as just pixels. But I do take calculated risks and while I don't send things deliberately to their deaths I do try and put myself in the place of the commanders in the field. And they did not all immeadiately run for San Francisco, Sydney and Karachi. They didn't look at the numerous AARs or past WitP experience and work out that the IJN ships are likely to win all the engagements. They fought in the most part.

Repulse & Prince of Wales are a match for anything in the IJN fleet and as long as the Japanese know you have them and are prepared to use them in the SRA they must guard against them - on nearly every transport fleet he sails. This is a huge plus and worth risking and eventually losing Force Z IMHO. Likewise with a lot of the CLs & other warships that are there. Splitting the big warships up ensures that you don't lose them all in one go and helps lower the detection profile (smaller TF).

These ships are not worthless but they are far more useful fighting here than sitting in Sydney later. Plus it is more realistic that they fight than 'bean counting' that you will lose more points than you gain. It is a lot more interesting for both sides to. And makes the Japanese player play more historically too. So to me rather than being a heartless and gamey move, fighting (and therefore probably dying) is far less gamey, unhistoric and dull than running. I am not talking about pointing all your warships on day one to the beachheads. You have weeks of game time to pick and choose which landings and TFs you go after.

I think the Philippines is too exposed for much allied naval surface ship action and I agree in the initial withdrawal small TFs tend to be the safest. If you are a fragment saver or even try and grab some complete units you will need to leave a few in the Philippines while your PPs build up. Good luck with that though....

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 14
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 4:06:40 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The Prince of Wales is an awesome FLAK platform. Pairing it with US CV's seems like a great idea, as is saving it for this purpose.


It is Q Ball. But it is also speed 5. Like Washington & South Dak et al. I don't want my CVs going one slower than KB and 800 extra flak won't help if I can't out run them.

When I have saved them they have been useful in '43 when I start my serious shore bombardments. But I have plenty of BBs then and plenty of Flak platforms all be it not quite of PoWs quality.

Fight, I say fight Engage the enemy more closely.... and all that.... BBs being valued for their AA values! What is that all about

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 15
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 4:10:21 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


I wouldn´t call the Boise "poor quality"!!!


OK not all the Cruisers are bad and Boise is the best of them. Even the Dutch ones with their 5.9" guns can actually hurt IJN cruisers with gunfire unlike the 8" UK ones

And of course Boise's magical reputation can be a factor. Sadly she has never displayed this in my games and always gone down early on.

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Post #: 16
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 4:22:05 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


I wouldn´t call the Boise "poor quality"!!!


OK not all the Cruisers are bad and Boise is the best of them. Even the Dutch ones with their 5.9" guns can actually hurt IJN cruisers with gunfire unlike the 8" UK ones

And of course Boise's magical reputation can be a factor. Sadly she has never displayed this in my games and always gone down early on.



and in all my games except one

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RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 4:27:18 PM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

One thought about the Dutch CLs. I used to consider these HIGHLY expendable as the USN gets a ton of CLs later in the game. However, I discovered that they are great for fast transport missions. THere armor, speed and guns make them pretty useful for getting in and out of hostile areas....now I wish I'd been more careful with them.


Sure these and others can be used as Fast Transports, AA platforms, escorts and a host of other uses. But the bottom lines are these....

After the SRA falls the game gets deadly serious. The Japanese can start attacking places you don't want to lose and attacking assets you can’t afford to be without later. And they are concentrated as they are attacking one place at a time. You can’t afford to lose numerous US/Australian divisions so you can’t risk them much. You can’t afford to lose the whole early US fleet and attacking piecemeal against is suicide against a very concentrated Japanese navy. In short your options are limited.

So it is in the SRA when he is spread out and you know you can handle the losses that you fight. If you don’t fight here you may well not be fighting for a year or more. When else are the odds so favourable until the allied build up turns the tide? Do you really want to do nothing before then?

Sadly while the end of the SRA conquests was the time in real life the allies started to hit back at Coral Sea, Milne Bay and Midway the game mechanics of WitP make that period the most dangerous for the allies to do anything at all.

Fast Transports Flak platforms PP point savers Bah

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 18
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 6:43:09 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		Well in my PBEM game, I plan on fighting for nearly everything important.

The Clark/Manila/Bataan triangle, Singapore, Sorejaba (sp), Palembang.

I can't fight for everything, just get run over too quickly, so I'm trying to concentrate my forces a little better.

I figure if I can hold out an extra month in the SRA rather than just "give" the Nips everything, that only ties up his forces and postpones the "post-SRA assault", which gives me a little more time to build up my forces.

I'm trying to use the Finnish war strategy, modified to the south pacific. When attacked by superious forces, retreat. When you have superiour forces, attack.

Overall, as we all know, the allies don't have superiour numbers of anything in the SRA, so what I'm trying to do is create/manufacture situations where I do have superiour numbers (maybe 5 DD's against his 3 AP's and 5 PC's... or perhaps shuffling around airforces so I have 50 Buffalos against a raid of 5-10 zeros/10-20 bettys)... well maybe not create, but at least be ready to pounce on situations where that occurs. If I can at least "sting" my esteemed opponent, the might force him to cover all his transports with escort ships (driving up sys damage, preventign them from being used elsewhere)... but always with an eye on safety. If I think a battle is going to be 1 to 1 odds, I'll avoid engagement. at least in the early going, and at least unless absolutely necessary. My ships are few, his are many, and I'd rather have my boys live to fight another day, than sacrifice themselves just to damage a Jap BB.

I also figure that if I fight for everything I can, not only does that slow down the Japs (albiet slightly), but cements in the mind that I'm going to be fighting for everything and don't think I'm going to "give" you a single victory point because I know in 1.5 years I'll steamroll you. If you're coming after me, you better bring the kitchen sink too.

< Message edited by AcePylut -- 1/30/2008 6:47:10 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/30/2008 11:56:47 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		Some ideas for the Allies in the SRA:

- Try to get at least a few small AK's with supplies into Singapore and Manila to extend the resistance there as long as possible.

- Sneak the Dutch PT's into Singapore.  A human player may escort everything, but against the AI you will have a field day raiding the Jap transports at Mersing and Kuantan

- Loot the oil and resources to Oz. 

- I've actually managed to get some AKs from Naga to Pearl.  The first 48 hours are hellish, but after you get into the wide Pacific you have a chance.

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 20
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 1/31/2008 8:06:27 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		A rule of thumb: You will lose all of these ships, any that survive were lucky.

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Post #: 21
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 2/1/2008 2:29:02 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan
- The C-Class, D-Class, and Dutch CL's are all expendable. Their lack of range makes them pitiful assets anywhere other than the DEI.


I disagree, I find the short legged Dutch CL and DD fleet is superb for fast transport supply runs into enemy territory. Better to risk them supplying a base like Port Blair than to risk your better ships.

Unless you get a good return on investment using them in the SRA, you should evacuate them before KB comes calling. If your opponent is the type who likes to send invasion fleets into the SRA without good air cover or heavy escort, then by all means expend them in a naval battle there. But I wouldn’t view them as expendable, I’d view them as front line workhorses that have some uses other than inclusion into the main battle fleets.

I’m using them at Port Blair in my game, but they could come in handy doing supply runs to Port Moresby or Guadalcanal given an historic situation at those bases. Basically any forward base within 1-2 turns of a supply point could make very good use of them.

They can also be useful to hunt down Japanese barges operating within your sphere of influence. The fact they don’t have upgrade paths also means that early in the war they may be your only available surface fleet around while your better assets return to the rear for refits.

Jim


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Post #: 22
RE: Need a rule of thumb on ships fleeing SRA - 2/1/2008 9:18:21 AM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear

A rule of thumb: You will lose all of these ships, any that survive were lucky.

i've gotten quiet a few out of manila going east if you just wait a couple of days.

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