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People modifiers - 2/5/2008 7:57:15 PM

jjdenver

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Joined: 11/2/2007
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Hi,

I was looking at the Great Patriotic War and saw these people modifiers.

Can someone explain to me what
Production Mod
Battle For Mod
Battle Vs. Mod

mean?

Does this mean that since Germans have +100% Battle for Axis mod, and Soviets have +0% battle for Soviets mod - that German troops are twice as good as Soviet troops?

Also NKVD has +25% battle for Soviet mod, and +25% battle vs Axis mod. Does this mean they fight 50% better than normal Soviet troops but still not as good as the +100% German troops?

Thanks!

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RE: People modifiers - 2/5/2008 8:49:13 PM

Captain Cruft

Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
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OK I'll give it a go, since I was trying to puzzle this out myself :)

People are only relevant to production centres and combat for sub-formation types.

For production, what I can glean from the above figures is:

Captured Soviet People Group production centres will operate at 25% capacity for the Germans People.
Captured Axis People Group production centres will operate at 50% capacity for the Soviets People.

However, I am unclear as to how to determine which People "own" or "operate" a production centre. Perhaps this is a function of the Regime which owns the hex, which is then linked to a People or People Group?

Battle Mods I am still very confused about. It may be that "For" means when on attack and "Vs." means when on defence. In any case the main thing you can see from the above that in general NKVD sub-formations get some bonuses compared to Soviet, except for the one case where there is a -75%.

(in reply to jjdenver)

Post #: 2

RE: People modifiers - 2/5/2008 11:26:53 PM

Captain Cruft

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Regarding Battle Mods, upon reading the manual a sliver (only a sliver) of clarity has emerged.

a) When fighting FOR the Axis People Group, NKVD will receive a -100% bonus.
b) When fighting FOR the Soviets People Group, NKVD will receive a +25% bonus.
c) When fighting AGAINST the Axis People Group, NKVD will receive a +25% bonus.
d) When fighting AGAINST the Soviets People Group, NKVD will receive a +50% bonus.

The assumption would be that b) and c) are the norm, and that a) and d) will never happen, but since I cannot determine exactly what "fighting FOR/AGAINST a People Group" means I'm not sure. Perhaps it maps through the sub-formation People setting? With the FOR setting used when on attack and the AGAINST when on defence. Remember that each combat consists of attacks and counter-attacks, which drill down to individual sub-formations trying to hit and kill/retreat each other.

Some help here would be really useful ... :)

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Post #: 3

RE: People modifiers - 2/5/2008 11:44:25 PM

jjdenver

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It's surprising though if the German troops are twice as good as Soviet troops. And in fact even German minor troops are better than Soviet troops. The SS is 3x(?) as good as Soviet troops. Are we reading this correctly?

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 12:26:37 AM

Captain Cruft

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From: England
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Perhaps running a few combats with Combat Logs on would be useful?

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 2/6/2008 12:27:14 AM >

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 12:47:30 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

ok, now I am really confused, TOm ? anyone lol

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 12:51:06 AM

xBoroNx

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Maybe the +100% are due to the blitz event which lasts the first 4 turns?

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 12:58:25 AM

jjdenver

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Oh - nice guess xBoroNx - can Tom or Vic or anyone else fill us in?

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 1:21:38 AM

Captain Cruft

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OK well I have run a couple of combats with Combat Log on.

I almost wish I hadn't ... ;)

There's a LOT of data in there, and I am nowhere near figuring it all out yet. However, one thing is clear. Both the Batt For Mod and Batt Vs. Mod are applied to the attack strength of every attack by that sub-formation. They are multiplied together rather than added though.

So, it's actually pretty simple.

NKVD sub-formations will always get the +25% bonus for fighting for the Soviet People Group, of which they are a member. They will also (in this scenario) always get a +25% bonus for fighting against the Axis People Group. So that makes a total modifier of 1.25^2 which equals 1.5625.

Essentially, with a simple two side scenario like this, where People can only fight for one side, the Batt Vs. Mod for your own People Group and the Batt For Mod for the opposing People Group are redundant. However, those parameters certainly could be involved in other types of scenario.

As to actual effect of these bonuses in this scenario, the Axis values at start are doubled via events to implement the "Blitzkrieg". They will revert to the norm for most of the game, so the SS reduce from +150% to +25%, normal Germans reduce from +100% to no bonus and Axis Minor reduce from +50% to -20%.

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 2/6/2008 1:22:51 AM >

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 1:22:58 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
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From: Colorado
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don't forget teh poles!

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 1:29:18 AM

Captain Cruft

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Here is an example from the Combat Log of Axis Minor attacking Soviet. You can see the 50% being applied as "Battle For People X Mod" and then the 0% (multiplication by 1) for "Battle Versus People Y mod".

ATTACKER: Machinegun attacks Rifle
BEFORE MOD: Attval= 30, DefVal=  100
Attval after global combat modifier (wheater):  30
Attval after CombatMod for Landscapetype:  30
Attval after CombatMod for Staff ( 1.258):  37.74
Attval after Rdn mod:  37.74
Attval after AttackMod / DefensiveMod mod:  37.74
attval after SupplyConsume mod:  37.74
Attval after Battle For People X mod:  56.61
Attval after Battle Versus People Y mod:  56.61
Attval after XP mod:  84.915
Attval after Concentric Bonus ( 1):  84.915
Defval after Rdn mod:  87.5
Defval after SupplyConsume mod:  87.5
Defval after Entrench mod for defending hex:  109.375
Defval after xp mod:  136.7188
defval after Crowding def Mod:  136.7188
attval after Crowding att Mod (50%) ( 1):  84.915
AFTER ALL MODS: Attval= 84.915, DefVal=  136.7188
, Results in MISS.

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RE: People modifiers - 2/6/2008 1:32:40 AM

Captain Cruft

Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
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Incidentally, one thing that leaps out from the Combat Log is that some of the defenders get to attack off their own bat, not just via counter-attack. I guess this is something to with the initiative settings on the SFtype.

(in reply to Captain Cruft)

Post #: 12