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Artillery: Some thoughts

 
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Artillery: Some thoughts - 4/30/2014 1:15:05 PM   
IronMikeGolf

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Disclaimer: what follows is based upon my knowledge and experience of US Army doctrine from the early 80's through mid 90's.

Since we wear hats at different levels of command simultaneously when playing FPRS, it can be challenging to tell where the combined knowledge of the fight at all those levels ends and where gimmicks of the game engine begin.

Here's an example: I have a PACT tank company or MRC halted while breaching an obstacle. The obstacle/minefield is covered by direct fire and the breaching unit is being attritted. If I can finish it off, the obstacle/minefield will remain unbreached. This is a good opportunity to use ICM. I've already fired some ICM missions, so I page through my firing batteries to see who has ammo, select that battery and order the barrage.

At first blush, all seems fine. I am just wearing some more hats: Company Fire Support Team, maneuver Bn Fire Support Officer (maybe), direct support Arty Bn command post (on the DS Bn FO net and that's a maybe), and Firing Battery FDC. Just another mission.

Except, the relationships between maneuver units and fire support is, I think, over simplified and results in missions being fired too quickly, in some cases.

Direct Support: maneuver commander controls the supporting fires. Arty Bns support Brigades. Batteries support maneuver (armor and infantry) battalions.

General Support: fire support commander controls the arty fires. This could be the art bn that supports a maneuver brigade that is currently in reserve or could be a corps level asset parceled out to a division.

General Support Reinforcing: fire support commander controls the reinforcing fires. These are tubes added to another fire mission.

Dedicated Battery: this is what is called "Direct Support" in the game (once it gets fixed).

The point I am making is that the response time for a fire mission depends a lot on the relationship between who's calling the mission and who's firing it. For this time period (mid to late 80's), a mission being fired by a battery in direct support of another maneuver battalion takes longer than the battery in direct support. And that takes longer than the maneuver bn's mortar plt.

To model this more accurately, we'd need to be able to tag a battery as supporting a specific line battalion and then adjust response times.

Also, each battery has an FDC. It's not at the Arty Bn CP.

What does the sim do when the FDC tracks are destroyed? Does it take longer for a battery to fire a mission?



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Jeff
Sua Sponte
Post #: 1
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/2/2014 6:12:36 PM   
trebcourie

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		Good points. Arty is *very* responsive in this game. On one hand I'm okay with it to keep with the somewhat abstract nature of this game, but...

(in reply to IronMikeGolf)
Post #: 2
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/2/2014 7:59:29 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		We can dial that down a bit for 2.04. There are a number of arty based improvements we want to do for the new game engine (2.1). Hopefully we can fold in some of the stuff above along with the list we have already (some of which hits points above).

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to trebcourie)
Post #: 3
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/2/2014 8:39:34 PM   
IronMikeGolf

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Cool! I don't know when you guys are declaring open season on the Good Idea Fairy for 2.04......

I am gonna play around with some DB stuff next. I think the ammo levels for M2/M3 need tweaked. TOW, 25mm, and 7.62 are different for M2 vs M3 (M3 carries more) and both platforms carry more than just the two missiles in the launcher. Also, mech inf needs another Dragon tracker. Should be more like 4 men, 2 trackers, 8 rds. For mech, M2's would have 2 TOWs in the launcher, and the 5 tube racks in the back would have 3 TOW and 2 Dragon, typically. METT-T driven, of course. M3's would carry 10 TOWs in the back.

_____________________________

Jeff
Sua Sponte

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 4
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/2/2014 8:54:52 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Iron Mike, for missiles in box launchers/rails the ammo count is what can fire from those launchers. The ammo counts being summed takes into account a chance to fire beyond the ready rounds (slim). To basically fire more, the unit needs to do a R&R to reload. Something better done out of direct fire combat.

This will all be more clear once I get the 4th mod guide on data editing done. You can definitely edit away with the user databases. I would suggest making a copy of the user and giving it a new name and also matching the name in the National tab of spreadsheet (near the bottom).

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to IronMikeGolf)
Post #: 5
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/3/2014 2:35:38 AM   
WABAC

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 1/25/2014
Status: offline 		Will the mod 4 guide include information on how to create new warheads/rounds?

My life just won't be complete without the 5 inch HVAR (AKA Holy Moses)in my inventory.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 6
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/3/2014 3:01:18 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		It will explain how to rate something like that for a one of the values (AP, HEAT, Area, AD). The HVAR would have a SA value of 11 if that helps.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to WABAC)
Post #: 7
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/3/2014 1:38:00 PM   
SwampYankee68


Posts: 1186
Joined: 5/8/2002
From: Connecticut, U.S.
Status: offline 		I had the same impression with artillery response times in Command Ops, so I just let the AI subordinates handle it with some exceptions. It made me feel less "gamey". I think RS does it better, but I do share Iron Mike's concerns.

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"The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!"

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 8
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/5/2014 12:48:06 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Artillery is high on the list of 'touch up' items. We know that there are blemishes in FPC. It was either give it you guys as is or release it 5 years from now.

Keep reporting what you think is wrong and how you think it should be.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to SwampYankee68)
Post #: 9
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/9/2014 3:38:24 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Artillery is high on the list of 'touch up' items.


Being able to set TRPs and adjust priority fires during a scenario would be good. But this was 1980s U.S. artillery doctrine so the game could better mimic what was done back in the day. I'm no expert to suggest how the other nations did it.

As the game moves forward, this (artillery) and other areas could be researched to better capture subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the NATO countries and Warsaw Pact countries over different time periods (ie, 1970s "Active Defense" doctrine vs 1980s "AirLand Battle" doctrine, etc.) I mean, there were significant doctrinal changes going on and not just equipment and other TO&E changes. If the game series can capture all this and not simply bang-to-fit the current game mechanics (which are pretty good for a 1980s conflict) into other time periods and/or venues, then that would be outstanding. I know some folks have asked about taking this to Middle East, Viet Nam, WWII, Korea, etc., but be cautious. Keep it accurate and realistic for each side (and the AI) in different conflicts, make adjustments as necessary.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 10
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/9/2014 9:02:10 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		You can set TRP's now.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 11
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/10/2014 7:55:20 PM   
WABAC

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 1/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

You can set TRP's now.

Good Hunting.

MR


Ummm,

I have to ask . . .

What is a TRP please?

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 12
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/10/2014 9:07:21 PM   
Clod100_slith

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/9/2010
Status: offline 		Target Reference Point

2-69. A target reference point (TRP) is an easily recognizable point on the ground, such as a building or a road junction, used in conjunction with engagement areas and sectors of fire to initiate, distribute, and control fires. A TRP may be a natural terrain feature, a manmade artifact, such as a building, or a marker emplaced by the unit. Maneuver leaders at battalion and below designate TRPs to define unit or individual sectors of fire and observation, usually within an EA. A TRP can also designate the center of an area where the commander plans to rapidly distribute or converge fires. A task force commander designates TRPs for his company teams. Company commanders designate TRPs for their platoons, sections, and, in some cases, individual weapons. Platoon leaders or subordinate leaders may designate additional TRPs for their elements as necessary to control direct and indirect fires. The echelon fire support officer can also designate TRPs as indirect fire targets by using the standard target symbol with letters and numbers. Figure 2-12 depicts the symbol for TRP 032.


< Message edited by Clod100 -- 5/10/2014 10:08:21 PM >

(in reply to WABAC)
Post #: 13
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/10/2014 9:20:44 PM   
Flef

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 11/16/2013
Status: offline 		edit:grilled. answered before.

< Message edited by Flef -- 5/10/2014 10:21:46 PM >

(in reply to WABAC)
Post #: 14
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/10/2014 10:03:50 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Artillery is high on the list of 'touch up' items. We know that there are blemishes in FPC. It was either give it you guys as is or release it 5 years from now.

Keep reporting what you think is wrong and how you think it should be.

Good Hunting.

MR


i liked it now, christmas comes only once a year, and for me it's fine as it is and glad i didn't have to wait that long for a more perfect game, you can tinker all you like, for as long as you like, but sometimes it's nice to play it as is, then alter as you move along where needed. this is where the sim folk all pull their hair out and the game players snigger.

it's been really nice to see what has altered as the game has progressed / patched etc, all for the better, but if i'd not seen it before some of them, would i have noticed some of the details so much? one set of anti tank shell / missile fired and destroyed a tanks for me is as good as another, if a arty battery fires a few minutes early than it should, i can live with also tbh

if the game crashes every 5 mins then i couldn't and would complain, which it has never done :) so no complaints from me, i know everyone wants something more in a sim, but some of us just like to play now and are more than happy with what you are doing now and the direction of where you are going :)

thanks for the game / sim :)

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 15
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/10/2014 11:47:15 PM   
WABAC

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 1/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Clod100

Target Reference Point

2-69. A target reference point (TRP) is an easily recognizable point on the ground, such as a building or a road junction, used in conjunction with engagement areas and sectors of fire to initiate, distribute, and control fires. A TRP may be a natural terrain feature, a manmade artifact, such as a building, or a marker emplaced by the unit. Maneuver leaders at battalion and below designate TRPs to define unit or individual sectors of fire and observation, usually within an EA. A TRP can also designate the center of an area where the commander plans to rapidly distribute or converge fires. A task force commander designates TRPs for his company teams. Company commanders designate TRPs for their platoons, sections, and, in some cases, individual weapons. Platoon leaders or subordinate leaders may designate additional TRPs for their elements as necessary to control direct and indirect fires. The echelon fire support officer can also designate TRPs as indirect fire targets by using the standard target symbol with letters and numbers. Figure 2-12 depicts the symbol for TRP 032.



Thank you. If that is what I think it is, it can only be placed by the scenario designer when making the map. And I don't remember seeing any examples of it outside the tutorial.

(in reply to Clod100_slith)
Post #: 16
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/12/2014 7:47:01 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WABAC
If that is what I think it is, it can only be placed by the scenario designer when making the map. And I don't remember seeing any examples of it outside the tutorial.


That's kinda what I was getting at when I asked about being able to set & adjust TRPs and priority fires during a scenario...

(in reply to WABAC)
Post #: 17
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/12/2014 9:20:28 PM   
Killjoy12

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/11/2003
Status: offline 		Is there anything special that needs to be done to call down fire on the pre-placed TRP? I'm not quite sure how to take advantage of it.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 18
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/13/2014 2:07:44 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 5/17/2012
Status: offline 		Some MLRS thoughts from a dude who did it for a living for a while:

http://bayonetgames.com/wmlrs.htm

(in reply to Killjoy12)
Post #: 19
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/13/2014 2:16:10 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Killjoy, no. Selecting the hex will sets the arty to quickly engage the target location.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 20
RE: Artillery: Some thoughts - 5/13/2014 2:26:50 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Brant, nice read on the MLRS. Thanks for posting.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 21
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