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AC armor questoin? - 12/4/2018 8:44:37 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Will 12.7mm and above penetrate AC armor? I want to say it does, but can't remember.
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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/4/2018 9:07:00 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Will 12.7mm and above penetrate AC armor? I want to say it does, but can't remember.

That depends on the armor..

Fred

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/4/2018 10:35:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		You can check yourself in the editor by looking up the specific aircraft and noting its armor thicknesses, then find the appropriate 12.7mm/.5 inch weapon and see what the armor penetration value is. I am not doing this for you because it is useful to know how to find info in the editor that is not available in game, so you should find out the layout of the editor and figure out how to find stuff on the various pages.

In my case, it was a question about whether a level 5 port could repair a destroyed 8" gun turret. Had to do some digging into load costs to figure that one out.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/5/2018 12:25:15 AM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		Easy rule of thumb: If it's your fighter trying to penetrate his armor, good luck with that. If it's his fighter trying to penetrate your armor, can you say Swiss cheese?

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/5/2018 12:33:57 AM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		I don't want to see any purists talking about Lorraine cheese, this game does not model that.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/5/2018 12:54:02 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't want to see any purists talking about Lorraine cheese, this game does not model that.

How about this kind of cheese? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/5/2018 1:15:43 AM   
geofflambert


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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/5/2018 3:23:34 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't want to see any purists talking about Lorraine cheese, this game does not model that.

What about Jarlsberg cheese?






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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/5/2018 3:25:26 AM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		I know, I know ... some of those holes look like 7.7mm/.308 caliber .

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 12:48:43 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		Thanks BB. I wasn't for sure that the 1 meant 1 inch or whatever measurement it is.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 6:13:20 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Thanks BB. I wasn't for sure that the 1 meant 1 inch or whatever measurement it is.

I think all the game armour measurements are in mm. Check the data on tanks and ships to see. So 1 mm of steel armour might stop a rifle bullet but is not going to stop a .50 cal. bullet.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 6:26:57 AM   
GetAssista

 

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Status: offline 		I think by AC OP meant aircraft.
.50 cal remains relatively effective for the whole game. Wildcats/Hellcats shoot down Japanese planes with armor=1

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Post #: 12
RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 2:23:20 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
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Status: offline 		Is not AC "armor" represented by the Durability value?

And the Armour rating value(0,1,2) refers to the protection to the pilot?










quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

You can check yourself in the editor by looking up the specific aircraft and noting its armor thicknesses, then find the appropriate 12.7mm/.5 inch weapon and see what the armor penetration value is. I am not doing this for you because it is useful to know how to find info in the editor that is not available in game, so you should find out the layout of the editor and figure out how to find stuff on the various pages.

In my case, it was a question about whether a level 5 port could repair a destroyed 8" gun turret. Had to do some digging into load costs to figure that one out.


Where are the armor thicknesses?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/11/2018 2:50:50 PM >

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 3:58:20 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		I may have made an incorrect assumption that the thickness of armor would be represented in mm for aircraft as it is for other devices. However, whether the number 1 represents 1 mm or an undefined thickness, it will not be enough to stop a .50 cal bullet. Presumably armor factor 1 would be designed to stop bullets of 7.7mm/.308 caliber and some small AA fragments.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 4:04:33 PM   
Miller


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Status: offline 		Unlike the original WITP, Jap 7.7mm machine guns can penetrate a plane with armour.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 4:09:01 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Unlike the original WITP, Jap 7.7mm machine guns can penetrate a plane with armour.

I know some early IJ fighters have MGs of this caliber, but does that also apply to the 7.7 mm MGs on the ground? Range could be a factor in whether their bullets will penetrate, no?

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 5:37:08 PM   
Yaab


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Status: offline 		In my DDB-C strafing tests from March 2016, 7.7mm AAMG in Jap LCUs destroyed outright the following aircraft:

Havoc (durability 35, armor 1)
Warhawk (durability 29, armor1)
Wirraway (durability 28, armor 0)

So I guess 7.7mm AAMGs installed on Japanese fighters can do the same, though aircraft on ground attack face all AA guns in the hex.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 8:18:21 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Is not AC "armor" represented by the Durability value?

And the Armour rating value(0,1,2) refers to the protection to the pilot?


Its my understanding that durability has to do with A/C strength and whether or not it survives an attack. Armor has to do with pilot survivorability. I could be wrong though not exactly privy to the code.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 9:23:07 PM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		The aircraft armor number is an abstracted rating.  It does not represent either an imperial or metric measurement value.

In broad terms the abstracted armor rating represents the degree of vulnerability to the calibre size of anti aircraft weapons.  Hence a rating of 0 is vulnerable to any calibre size (including a David firing off a slingshot), a rating of 1 ups the vulnerability to above rifle calibre size, and a rating of 2 ups it further to cannon calibre.  Specific vulnerability can be determined by comparing the abstracted penetration value of the anti aircraft weapon.

Survivability of a pilot is not based on the aircraft armor rating.

Alfred

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Post #: 19
RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 10:14:50 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Found this in WITPAE-Editor.pdf:

Durability the ability of the aircraft to withstand damage and not be destroyed

Armor represents whether the aircraft had protective armor and/or self-sealing fuel tanks in which case it rates a rating of a 1. A few aircraft warrant a 2 or greater due to special design characteristics.


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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/11/2018 11:52:25 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Thank you Alfred! That clears up all the fuzziness I had about the subject. (until I forget again ...)




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Post #: 21
RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 1:04:57 AM   
Anachro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Armor represents whether the aircraft had protective armor and/or self-sealing fuel tanks in which case it rates a rating of a 1. A few aircraft warrant a 2 or greater due to special design characteristics.


Japanese HB Rita has level 2 armor in John's BTS mod, well the upgraded 4/45 variant does.



EDIT

Wow, reading up on wikipedia, I'm surprised this variant isn't included...or is it? John!?

quote:

One proposed variant was the G8N2 Renzan-Kai Model 22, powered by four 2,200 hp Mitsubishi MK9A radial engines and modified to accept attachment of the air-launched Ohka Type 33 Special Attack Bomber




The Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka (Ōka, "cherry blossom") was a purpose-built, rocket-powered human-guided kamikaze attack aircraft employed by Japan against Allied ships towards the end of World War II. United States sailors gave the aircraft the nickname Baka ("fool" or "idiot").

Late war stuff is pretty cool. Is this in game?

< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/12/2018 1:10:17 AM >

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 7:22:22 AM   
Barb


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Status: offline 		Yup, Ohka (or Baka) is in the game, but not as plane type, but rather as ordonance. There are two versions IIRC - Model 11 (See in Mitsubishi G4M2e Betty bomber) and Model 22 (See in Yokosuka P1Y2 Frances bomber). I think there was a database glitch in the official release Scen.1 that caused the bomb devices were not produced and thus were not used in the game. One of the later releases fixed it with Database Patch (it also fixed the Ki-44 Tojo engine type and IJAAF BF Bn Radar upgrade path among others) so they are available for use

As for the G8N Rita it is again not available in the Scen 1. But other scenarios and Mods could have it.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 12:33:38 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The aircraft armor number is an abstracted rating.  It does not represent either an imperial or metric measurement value.

In broad terms the abstracted armor rating represents the degree of vulnerability to the calibre size of anti aircraft weapons.  Hence a rating of 0 is vulnerable to any calibre size (including a David firing off a slingshot), a rating of 1 ups the vulnerability to above rifle calibre size, and a rating of 2 ups it further to cannon calibre.  Specific vulnerability can be determined by comparing the abstracted penetration value of the anti aircraft weapon.

Survivability of a pilot is not based on the aircraft armor rating.

Alfred


With the caveat that the land-base equivalents of aircraft weapons can somehow negate the armor bonus of aircraft on Grnd Attack missions.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 1:06:16 PM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		Armor does not give a bonus to aircraft.  There is therefore nothing which can be negated by "land-base equivalents".

Alfred

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 2:50:49 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Trivia...In real life, the United States even issued AP rounds for the M1 Garand, and they were in use in the ETO in 1944.
They had the ability to punch holes in the German SdKfz 251 (which was why they were issued.
Hitherto, the German armored infantry had been successful in "blitzkreiging" with speed and moving their infantry safe with those halftracks, but when they encountered regular American infantry with "ordinary rifles" capable of ending the charade, it became less a threat for the Allied forces inn Europe.

The rounds themselves were common to obtain,and became very popular after 1943 when the G.I.'s encountered the need for them in North Africa. Before then, the ratio issued was 60% Ball, 20% AP, and 20% tracer. After that, the ratio was 80% AP and 20% Tracer.

Years ago, I mentioned this to friends/fellow gamers in the fantastic SPWAW forums, and while I was able to prove this doctrine, it was pointed out the rounds should not be included in the game due to "game balance" issues.

Like I said...This is listed here as "trivia."...

< Message edited by m10bob -- 12/12/2018 2:57:29 PM >

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 3:01:04 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Will 12.7mm and above penetrate AC armor? I want to say it does, but can't remember.



Check this site.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 5:22:49 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Is not AC "armor" represented by the Durability value?

And the Armour rating value(0,1,2) refers to the protection to the pilot?


Its my understanding that durability has to do with A/C strength and whether or not it survives an attack. Armor has to do with pilot survivorability. I could be wrong though not exactly privy to the code.



quote:

Survivability of a pilot is not based on the aircraft armor rating.



See, I stand corrected. Thanks Alfred.

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/12/2018 6:57:24 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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Status: offline 		I'm confused. We have two attributes to determine if a plane is shot-down or damaged; Armor AND durability?

Why bother having AC when you have durability? Are there two die-rolls to be made when checking plane status?

If a B17 has a high durability, why bother giving it a Armor rating?

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RE: AC armor questoin? - 12/13/2018 5:48:12 AM   
Buckrock

 

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Status: offline 		Regardless of it already having a very high DUR value, giving an aircraft like the B-17 an ARM = 1 can better represent the difficulties lighter weapons had in doing meaningful damage to better protected aircraft and can do so without compromising the effectiveness of those heavier weapons that could "penetrate" such protection. If the ARM rating wasn't in the game, a burst from a battery of something like three rifle-calibre MGs could in theory do the same damage (that is, "hits" inflicted on DUR) to a B-17 as a battery of two 12.7s could. Historically, the Japanese found their lighter 7.7 MGs could put lots of holes in a B-17 but struggle to inflict real damage to the critical parts of the aircraft (which naturally had better protection). The use of the ARM value in the game probably does a good job of representing this without the need to define "protected" areas of an aircraft, etc.


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