Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

"Warning shots" functionality in CMANO?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
"Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/3/2019 12:47:19 AM   
Peacemaker32

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/26/2019
Status: offline
Would it be possible to implement an option for the use of warning shots/"shot across the bow" as distinct from standard engagement orders? Currently, this aspect is not modelled in Command; this leads to situations in which warning shots would normally be used in real life, but for which doing so in-game would lead to instant "Hostile" status.

This could possibly involve a selectable option (similar to what currently exists for nuclear weapons in choosing high-altitude vs. surface burst) which would communicate the appropriate message to the AI. That is, the player could select either standard manual engagement (Shift + F1 or F1) or the "warning shot" option under their weapons panel; if a warning shot were to be fired, it would not result in the player being marked as hostile, but only in suitable action on the part of the AI. An "aggression" metric could vary the chance of AI-controlled forces breaking off an attack versus continuing to prosecute it, adding an element of unpredictability to scenarios.

Thoughts on this are very much appreciated.

Post #: 1
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/3/2019 1:15:33 AM   
ARCNA442

 

Posts: 158
Joined: 4/7/2018
Status: offline
I really like your idea of an aggression metric and nonlethal attacks. But I would focus it on neutrals instead of hostiles - rather than forcing hostiles to break off the attack (which I think would be fairly unlikely against any organized forces), I would suggest adding the ability to order contacts to ID themselves or change course. If they refuse, then you could then employ nonlethal methods to force them to comply, such as warning shots, water cannon, acoustic weapons, etc. This would help prevent unrealistic scenarios where you have a possibly neutral contact approaching friendlies but have no real option between firing on it or letting it come within weapons range.

I would also suggest that if nonlethal attacks are employed against an "unfriendly" target, there is a chance of flipping them to "hostile".

(in reply to Peacemaker32)
Post #: 2
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/3/2019 1:29:22 AM   
Peacemaker32

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/26/2019
Status: offline
**SPOILERS for the Community Scenario "Akesujima Conflict" below**


This scenario involves the player controlling two Japanese Coast Guard vessels tasked with maritime enforcement, specifically boarding of Chinese fishing vessels operating within an exclusion zone. The boarding element is fine, and is indeed skillfully modelled via LUA scripting; however, the scenario eventually leads to a Chinese frigate closing to within 1 nm of the player-controlled vessels. Throughout the scenario, messages are received requesting permission for warning shots; however, this is impossible in the base functionality of Command, as firing a warning burst would lead to the Chinese side being marked as "hostile" and immediate retaliation from Chinese units in the vicinity.

Another set of scenarios in which this functionality could be useful are those involving US/allied transit of the Persian Gulf; harassment by Iranian patrol boats cannot be effectively countered, as engaging them with a single burst leads to immediate hostilities from all Iranian forces. This is in contrast to real-life operations, in which warning shots have indeed been used against Iranian vessels by US naval forces.






(in reply to ARCNA442)
Post #: 3
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/3/2019 10:34:20 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARCNA442

I really like your idea of an aggression metric and nonlethal attacks. But I would focus it on neutrals instead of hostiles - rather than forcing hostiles to break off the attack (which I think would be fairly unlikely against any organized forces), I would suggest adding the ability to order contacts to ID themselves or change course. If they refuse, then you could then employ nonlethal methods to force them to comply, such as warning shots, water cannon, acoustic weapons, etc. This would help prevent unrealistic scenarios where you have a possibly neutral contact approaching friendlies but have no real option between firing on it or letting it come within weapons range.

I would also suggest that if nonlethal attacks are employed against an "unfriendly" target, there is a chance of flipping them to "hostile".


Could use area around unit enter area trigger (ref point locked to your unit) to lua code that tell RTB. Hope this go well for you.

Thank!

Bill

(in reply to ARCNA442)
Post #: 4
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/4/2019 8:04:13 AM   
MagpieS

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/19/2008
Status: offline
If I were designing a scenario for this I would be programming in a trigger of the unit being within an exclusion zone, thus notionally receiving warning shots and then programming in a course change away.

You could then put in a random event trigger for the encroaching unit to return fire

< Message edited by MagpieS -- 6/4/2019 8:07:01 AM >

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 5
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/4/2019 12:37:30 PM   
Dysta


Posts: 1909
Joined: 8/8/2015
Status: offline
As far as I concerned, firing only warning shots and not intend to hit anything is considered a very wasteful, if not futile, effort to stop the unfriendly’s aggression. Many real life ‘warning shots’ are actually intended and lethally considered to stop the target, like Russian patrol crafts hitting Ukrainian’s and illegal fishing boats at Far East.

If it’s done by petty attackers like pirates and terrorists, then their warning shots can be considered a very inaccurate version of lethal attack, like have a bad grouping around the target, making it looks like it’s just a bluff and more like ‘feeling’ warned.

This is why the water cannon is a thing, a rather less-lethal option to “shoot” at the unfriendly boat/ship. I am certain Japanese Coast Guard must involve in it if it’s not a lethal battle.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 6/4/2019 12:41:36 PM >

(in reply to MagpieS)
Post #: 6
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/6/2019 7:36:44 AM   
MagpieS

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

As far as I concerned, firing only warning shots and not intend to hit anything is considered a very wasteful, if not futile, effort to stop the unfriendly’s aggression. Many real life ‘warning shots’ are actually intended and lethally considered to stop the target, like Russian patrol crafts hitting Ukrainian’s and illegal fishing boats at Far East.

If it’s done by petty attackers like pirates and terrorists, then their warning shots can be considered a very inaccurate version of lethal attack, like have a bad grouping around the target, making it looks like it’s just a bluff and more like ‘feeling’ warned.

This is why the water cannon is a thing, a rather less-lethal option to “shoot” at the unfriendly boat/ship. I am certain Japanese Coast Guard must involve in it if it’s not a lethal battle.



Firing warning shots across the bow is a standard procedure by all navies.

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 7
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/7/2019 1:15:42 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of a lot of pre-hostilities/D+0 scenarios partially because of things like you mentioned. In a realistic scenario, these things aren't determined by random chance. They're planned. It's not like every time an IRGC speedboat does something goofy with a US DDG and warning shots are fired, there's a 50/50 (80/20?, 70/30?) chance of going to war. It's a show of force. The warning shots are less about whether they're scared away or not, and more about providing a tool for the US commander to determine if it's a show of force or the start of something else. It's about gauging intentions. The day that they actually start hostilities and don't turn around, it isn't because of a random chance, it's because it was pre-planned, scripted, and resourced with enough forces to be a credible threat.

Given that, what is the "aggression" metric really capturing? How would your tactics change as a result of adding warning shots? Wouldn't there also be other indications and warnings that would help one distinguish between the real thing and a show of force? Certainly that would probably influence the rules of engagement as well. From a tactical point of view, as far as I can tell, the only real effect of warning shots, besides aiding in the decision making process is to use up a shot that might be used once they've been declared hostile.

How would a scenario like that replay? If the goal is to capture a "typical period of heightened tensions," there'd have to be only a small chance that the scenario would actually turn hot.

What is victory? That the enemy boats/ships turned around or stopped? Then your chance of winning is basically determined not by your tactical prowess but by the random chance of them turning around/stopping. That's kind of lame. You'd have essentially two scenarios 1) enemy turns around or stops 2) enemy doesn't turn around or stop, with different victory conditions for both. So up front, the scenario would need to determine what the true set victory conditions was, along with whether or not they're going to turn around, but you CAN'T tell the player what the actual set of victory conditions are. Somehow, you need to tell them what to do in the briefing, though.

I'm just brain storming about what a pre-hostilities/D-Day scenario would look like and how it would work in order for it to be interesting. I think it could be done, but not using the "aggressiveness" metric you described. It'd be best done in LUA, I think. You could make warning shots a special action. Deduct a shot every time you use it (5'/54? 7.62mm? 0.50cal? you could have special actions for all of them). You could also add other non-lethal options in a continuum of force as special actions. Those are your tools for deciding when to start shooting.

At the scenario start, you could set the appropriate random variables. Is the opposing force hostile or just unfriendly? There should be only a small chance of them being actually hostile, but just enough to make for a certain amount of uncertainty. If they're unfriendly, then they follow a plan where they stop or turn around. There might be several different plans. Plan A assigns the forces to the plan where they turn around at when they honk the horn. Plan B assigns them to turn around following warning shots. If they're hostile then they follow a plan where they don't you might have a few of them as well.

I think that's the best solution. It'd make for the most immersive scenario and it can be done using the existing software, no modifications required.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Peacemaker32

Would it be possible to implement an option for the use of warning shots/"shot across the bow" as distinct from standard engagement orders? Currently, this aspect is not modelled in Command; this leads to situations in which warning shots would normally be used in real life, but for which doing so in-game would lead to instant "Hostile" status.

This could possibly involve a selectable option (similar to what currently exists for nuclear weapons in choosing high-altitude vs. surface burst) which would communicate the appropriate message to the AI. That is, the player could select either standard manual engagement (Shift + F1 or F1) or the "warning shot" option under their weapons panel; if a warning shot were to be fired, it would not result in the player being marked as hostile, but only in suitable action on the part of the AI. An "aggression" metric could vary the chance of AI-controlled forces breaking off an attack versus continuing to prosecute it, adding an element of unpredictability to scenarios.

Thoughts on this are very much appreciated.





< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 6/7/2019 1:17:13 PM >

(in reply to Peacemaker32)
Post #: 8
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/7/2019 8:36:27 PM   
Peacemaker32

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/26/2019
Status: offline
I was recently playing through a scenario involving an LCS squadron in the Persian Gulf, and ran into an … interesting … situation in which an IRGC speedboat closed to within 20 yards of my vessels. The instant I ordered it targeted with a single round, every missile boat in the vicinity fired on my forces.

I think part of the issue is that the AI, being AI, does not have the variation necessary to react realistically to any sort of warnings; their behavior is entirely dependent on mission parameters, with limited flexibility outside of this.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 9
RE: "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? - 6/7/2019 9:18:23 PM   
MagpieS

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/19/2008
Status: offline
The idea of warning shots is I think an excellent one.
If your goal is to place the player in the position of a modern Naval commander then treading the fine line between starting hostilities and protecting your vessel is the number one activity they should be doing.

It would be very easy to script in the actions of "boghammers" testinng the zone around the vessels and to have a preprogrammed point at which an exclusion zone is violated but it would certainly be a lot better if the AI can be altered to a point where you can essentially use an ROE setting for the boghammers to be testing the zone, looking to goad the naval vessel into starting something with all the political fall out that goea along with it.

This type of inceident has been played out time and time again over the last few decades, certainly a lot more often that a full on fleet action between top tier navies.

(in reply to Peacemaker32)
Post #: 10
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> "Warning shots" functionality in CMANO? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.688