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Why so few Panthers? - 7/25/2003 6:29:33 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		The name of the game is Steel Panthers, right? Why does it seem that there are substantially more Tigers and Pz IV L43/48's than Panthers? There were only 1354 Tiger I's made from mid '42-45 and 489 Tiger II's produced in '44-45. There were about 7220 Pz IV G-J made from mid '42 on. There were over 6,000 Panthers made from '43 on. This means that from late 43 on (when they stoped spontaneously combusting on the road), Panthers were at least as numerous as any other German tanks on the battlefield.

-WW
Post #: 1
- 7/25/2003 7:44:49 AM   
Capt Chris

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 2/4/2002
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline 		[I]Why does it seem that there are substantially more Tigers and Pz IV L43/48's than Panthers?[/I]

Where are you talking about? In the pre-build scenarios or against PBEM opponents?

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Post #: 2
- 7/25/2003 7:55:09 AM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt Chris
[B][I]Why does it seem that there are substantially more Tigers and Pz IV L43/48's than Panthers?[/I]

Where are you talking about? In the pre-build scenarios or against PBEM opponents? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry...in the pre-built solataire scenarios...SPWAW 7.1

-WW

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Post #: 3
- 7/25/2003 7:59:43 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		My whole post was off-target then. Sorry.

Edited to remove verbage....:rolleyes:

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Post #: 4
- 7/26/2003 6:39:31 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		The type and amount of armor would be the designer's choice. If it's a hypothetical scenario, many designer's (myself included), aren't as concerned with historical equipment numbers as with having a battle that's fun and challenging. For instance, I have two King Tigers in my latest H2H scenario (set in Italy - May 1944). This would have been mere days after their actual introduction, and I don't know if any were shipped to Italy or not. Of course, whether they'll survive my testing is another matter. ;)

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Post #: 5
- 7/29/2003 11:12:53 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		A serious minded designer with an eye for history and a recreation of that history in wargaming will try to adhere as much as possible to who and what was really there when the battle happened.

Anytime you use the scenario creator in SPWAW you can end up with anything.

But designed scenarios should reflect the vehicles present in the actual battles.

And a lot depends on the preferences of the scenario designer. He may like Tiger scenarios and he is historicaly inclined to do those.

I have a persona preference for the Pacific War but have done scenarios of all theaters of war.

I did do an entire series on single Tiger tank actions in SPWAW.

But the old Panther was the big player. It never made the headlines like the Tiger did.

And GIs, when they heard artillery hollered, "88!" When they heard treads creaking, they hollered, "Tiger!"

Some weapons and vehicles have their own magic, enhanced by legend and Hollywood.

Wild Bill

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(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 6
- 7/29/2003 6:34:21 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill
[B]A serious minded designer with an eye for history and a recreation of that history in wargaming will try to adhere as much as possible to who and what was really there when the battle happened.[/B][/QUOTE]

I rely on the Rarity settings, but rarely do historical scenarios, so I guess I'm a "semi-serious-minded" designer. :eek: :D :D

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Post #: 7
Every tank is a Tiger - 7/29/2003 6:49:56 PM   
STEELER13

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 6/7/2003
From: PHILADELPHIA
Status: offline 		[COLOR=blue][B]Yo All,
I can vouch for what WB said with regards to "every arty was an 88mm and every tank was a Tiger". Charles MacDonald(Us Army Historian) said that in interviewing vets, this was extremely common and required any historian to thoroughly research a battle and not just take interviews with veterans. If you have your head buried in a foxhole or you are shooting at the enemy, you are too busy to determine what calibre the artillery is or what type of tank just ran over your foxhole!

In any event, Tigers had notoriety because of the sound they made, and the image the name evokes (powerful, wild, deadly)is even stronger than Panther, which sounds like a slinking cat.

In SPWAW I find the Panthers are great offensive as someone pointed out, but against I Panther I find it easier to defeat them by flank shots than a Tiger. I once ambushed a friend in SP1 who had 9 Panthers against my 4 T34's just by feinting smoke, drawing him forward and hitting his tanks from the flanks. I lost one T34, he lost all 9 Panthers. The tactic didn't work against the Tiger.
I do note in the game the 88 is more deadly but the Panther seems to be more accurate but that is just anecdotal and I don't have anything to back that up.[/B][/COLOR]

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Post #: 8
- 7/29/2003 11:24:48 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Also, as has been hinted at in the posts above, the Tiger has greater "surviveability" than the Panther. Thus, either when playing against another human opponent or designing a scenario, the Tiger is preferred. Panthers are excellent tanks (indeed, the Panther Uhu should probably be outlawed), but Tigers are preferred. Oh well.

(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 9
- 7/30/2003 12:18:48 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		If you are into "Tigers" and have not yet played these "Tiger" scenarios, give them a try. It may give you a new perspective on this kitty...WB

Attachment (1)

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Wild Bill Wilder
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(in reply to werderwayne)
Post #: 10
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