Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on t... - 11/16/2021 3:07:12 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Attached is my attempt at codifying what metaphore and jubjub did in the thread located here:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5079430

Part of the intro...

This document was based off a thread that �metaphore� and �jubjub� participated on at Matrix Games Forum called �Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips� (see link reference at the end of this document). I wanted to �codify� their efforts and in the process, I have tweaked their efforts quite a bit to get the most optimal results I could based on my experiences and end goals. My main goal was to keep the Axis losses low (between 80-160 airframes and under 100 pilots KIA) and to eliminate as much of the VVS on the ground as possible (3,000-3,800 aircraft with anything over 600 pilots KIA from just the first turn ground attacks on airfields).

...Hope this helps some folks...

Download file here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cj5Npn3cOEN1jGP9Fq_nQXBBeenitsDe/view?usp=sharing

< Message edited by Zovs -- 11/17/2021 12:16:29 PM >

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

Post #: 1

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/16/2021 7:55:28 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Drats! Found one error on page 23 for Luftflotte 4 #7 the Target Hex should be Zhitomir (205,177) and not hex (203,177)!

I'll create a version 1.2 later today/tonight.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 2

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/16/2021 9:24:13 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Found a few more errors and I found a a better way for a few of the AD's so going to revamp those and repost the document tomorrow.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 3

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/17/2021 12:19:47 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Okay, all known issues have been addressed. I have reorder some of the AD as this does matter with regards to Axis air losses.

To date this is the best I have been able to achieve with regards to Axis airframe to Soviet airframe losses and Axis Pilots KIA to Soviet Pilots KIA.

Very please with my results and will be using this in my next PBEM.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 4

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 3:01:40 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Thanks very much for this. I will have hours of fun.

Q. What is the policy on Follow Path, Y/N?

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 5

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 4:10:14 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

And this Loadout

PZL 37B: to 2x 250kg GPHE Bomb and 18x 100kg GPHE Bomb

This is the only configuration allowed for this aircraft anyway or have I missed something.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 6

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 2:49:46 PM

OberGeneral

Posts: 205
Joined: 10/9/2018
From: Canada
Status: offline

Thank you.

This is awesome!

I am setting up a test run now!!

< Message edited by OberGeneral -- 11/18/2021 5:10:03 PM >

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 7

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 2:56:55 PM

actrade

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline

This is very, very helpful. I was following that thread for a long time, but I can't go back and read it every time I set up an GC. Thanks a lot! Next request...the same detail and pictures for setting up your SUs! Combined, this would be the perfect "template" save for a German GC41 game. Once the template save is saved, you can start GC's without the hours of repetitive setup. Mind you, it's not that I'm lazy setting up my own (as I've done it many times), but rather I want to see EXACTLY how good players set their SUs up. And I'm not talking generalities like "put so many arty SU into each inf corp, so many per armored group." Rather, I'm talking in depth. For example, 1. how many and which type of arty/flak where and why that type? 2. How many do you leave in OKH or the OGs for the arrival or new units and the formation of 2nd army? Where do you put those SUs once these units are arrive on map? I'm sure there are many of us unskilled players who are curious as to how this initial SU set up is done. I'm also curious as to where/when/how they bring their reserves on map.

For those of you highly skilled players, I think it would be great to have a library of these setups. Think of them like classic chess opening moves that the less skilled could try and see how it fits their own playstyle.

Joel, I think this would be a great addition prior to the release on Steam if new players could go into the steam workshop and download (for example) X Player's set up for a drive on Leningrad, or X Player's set up for an early drive on Moscow, or early capture of Rostov or just an all-around opening move set up. This would flatten the learning curve quite a bit for new players. I know that WiTE2 has already done that with all of the improved AI controls, but this would be a nice resource for those wanting to get their feet wet with more advanced control. Cheers.

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 8

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 5:10:45 PM

OberGeneral

Posts: 205
Joined: 10/9/2018
From: Canada
Status: offline

Great suggetions!

(in reply to actrade)

Post #: 9

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 6:18:26 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Correction:

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Thanks very much for this. I will have hours of fun.

Q. What is the policy on Follow Path, Y/N?

Your welcome.

What happens is when you select a target hex the computer plots a path, if you change path (to avoid flak for instance), then Follow Path changes to Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

And this Loadout

PZL 37B: to 2x 250kg GPHE Bomb and 18x 100kg GPHE Bomb

This is the only configuration allowed for this aircraft anyway or have I missed something.

No your not, I was just being a 'completist'

< Message edited by Zovs -- 11/18/2021 6:45:20 PM >

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 10

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 6:18:53 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

Thank you.
This is awesome!

I am setting up a test run now!!

You are most welcome.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to OberGeneral)

Post #: 11

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/18/2021 6:26:19 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

This is very, very helpful. I was following that thread for a long time, but I can't go back and read it every time I set up an GC. Thanks a lot! Next request...the same detail and pictures for setting up your SUs! Combined, this would be the perfect "template" save for a German GC41 game. Once the template save is saved, you can start GC's without the hours of repetitive setup. Mind you, it's not that I'm lazy setting up my own (as I've done it many times), but rather I want to see EXACTLY how good players set their SUs up. And I'm not talking generalities like "put so many arty SU into each inf corp, so many per armored group." Rather, I'm talking in depth. For example, 1. how many and which type of arty/flak where and why that type? 2. How many do you leave in OKH or the OGs for the arrival or new units and the formation of 2nd army? Where do you put those SUs once these units are arrive on map? I'm sure there are many of us unskilled players who are curious as to how this initial SU set up is done. I'm also curious as to where/when/how they bring their reserves on map.

For those of you highly skilled players, I think it would be great to have a library of these setups. Think of them like classic chess opening moves that the less skilled could try and see how it fits their own playstyle.

Joel, I think this would be a great addition prior to the release on Steam if new players could go into the steam workshop and download (for example) X Player's set up for a drive on Leningrad, or X Player's set up for an early drive on Moscow, or early capture of Rostov or just an all-around opening move set up. This would flatten the learning curve quite a bit for new players. I know that WiTE2 has already done that with all of the improved AI controls, but this would be a nice resource for those wanting to get their feet wet with more advanced control. Cheers.

Thank you.

The main problem is there is no way to currently save any of these setups. That would have to be added to the code somehow.

Secondly, when playing PBEM or MP you can't load a save game file, so without a way to load a template you'll just have to set these up for each PBEM/MP game.

Regarding SU's that is outside the scope of this document and from what I can tell everyone does it a little different. A better way to address this would be for someone to create a thread in the War Room listing the pros and cons of directly attaching to a division, corps, army or army group and the other things you mentioned.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to actrade)

Post #: 12

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/19/2021 4:43:24 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Just as an aside the air unit transfer interface is a touch flakey - it took me 20 tries to get 8th Rum FG to Husi and it took the 7th with it. (I had the same problem when setting up metaphores ADs.) All the other transfers worked fine.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 13

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 11/20/2021 8:09:00 PM

DeletedUser44

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Just as an aside the air unit transfer interface is a touch flakey - it took me 20 tries to get 8th Rum FG to Husi and it took the 7th with it. (I had the same problem when setting up metaphores ADs.) All the other transfers worked fine.

The air transfers are currently flaky. There are a couple of different ways to do it, depending on how you select the destination airbase.

Sometimes, I have to save the game and reload it in order for ac airbase transfers to fully work.

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 14

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/18/2021 6:17:43 PM

PeteJC

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2021
Status: offline

Has anyone looked at the results with the .11 patch?

(in reply to DeletedUser44)

Post #: 15

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/18/2021 6:28:14 PM

Stamb

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

I was looking at his setup as a base and with a little changes i got 5k Soviets planes. Unfortunately naval patrol and priority does not work together so i got a pretty big hit during naval patrol missions. I think i lost 250 planes in total.

(in reply to PeteJC)

Post #: 16

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/19/2021 3:50:55 PM

GibsonPete

Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline

An exceptionally well prepared and useful document. Thank you.

_____________________________

�Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.�

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 17

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/24/2021 4:41:00 AM

MishaTX

Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline

First of all, let me give you a million +1s for putting the time into this. It has made my life so much easier when it comes to setting up the Turn 1 Axis air offensive without losing my mind over making individual directives for every single Soviet air base, which is what I used to do!

Quibbles? Of course I have some, I'm an "expert", after all

(not even slightly).

I thought the altitude setting of 5000 ft for the ground attacks was odd since I seem to recall that there's something about dive bombers not really being as efficient below 9000, and you do have a lot of those at hand on Turn 1. I may misremember or it may no longer be the case, but when I changed that (after an initial few test runs where I went by the numbers on your setup), my losses inflicted did seem to go up by several hundred dead Soviet planes.

On the other hand, the "Kiev Run", which I thought initially to be completely insane, actually turns out to be well worth it in my opinion. Sure, I lose about 30 or so planes there but, since they're level bombers which, in my opinion, don't matter that much for the rest of the game as this, unlike WitW, is not an Air War game, I really don't care that much. They took out quite a few reds in return. And the sequence in the South with the Romanians going for Ochakov first instead of Odessa first actually works much better than my idea, which was to attack Odessa first. Good call! (I ran quite a few tests).

Finally, your setup in the text includes two different attacks on the Brody airfield, but the summary screenshot shows that it's not there, instead there is an attack on Izyaslavl. The text setup is, in my opinion, superior since Brody is well worth an extra sweep with their fighters, and Izyaslavl is pretty much irrelevant since the planes there are bombers which will get cut to ribbons subsequently if they try to get past the LW anyway, I just thought it might help if you adjusted the screenshot for the sakes of easily confused clowns like me

Summary: As a result of all of your work with a few modifications as mentioned above now results in 3500 to 3900 Soviet losses in exchange for 150-200 Axis, 75% of which are level bombers which I don't care much about after turn 1 anyways, so, in conclusion, thanks again a million times!

< Message edited by MishaTX -- 12/24/2021 4:42:02 AM >

(in reply to GibsonPete)

Post #: 18

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/24/2021 8:30:49 AM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Thanks again all for all the nice comments, really glad this document has helped a bit.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to MishaTX)

Post #: 19

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/24/2021 9:02:58 AM

Stamb

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

Thanks for a manual Zovs. It helped a lot!

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 20

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/24/2021 9:45:43 AM

Fraggo5

Posts: 46
Joined: 3/24/2021
From: Peterborough U.K
Status: offline

Just downloaded this to use on the start of my next GC kicking off fairly soon. Thanks for the time and effort you have put into this Zovs to give us all an edge in our GC's it's much appreciated

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 21

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/24/2021 10:24:02 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MishaTX

...
I thought the altitude setting of 5000 ft for the ground attacks was odd since I seem to recall that there's something about dive bombers not really being as efficient below 9000, and you do have a lot of those at hand on Turn 1. I may misremember or it may no longer be the case, but when I changed that (after an initial few test runs where I went by the numbers on your setup), my losses inflicted did seem to go up by several hundred dead Soviet planes.
...

the cut off altitude is 5k, at or above they dive to 1k for the actual attack so its a good choice

overall, really impressive bit of analysis

_____________________________

(in reply to MishaTX)

Post #: 22

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/24/2021 9:36:35 PM

MishaTX

Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

the cut off altitude is 5k, at or above they dive to 1k for the actual attack so its a good choice

overall, really impressive bit of analysis

As always: Thanks, Loki! I don't know where my aging brain got the 9000 from. Just RNG, then.

And I agree: Zovs did one HECK of a job with this guide!

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 23

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 12/25/2021 2:25:52 AM

actrade

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline

Used this for the first time today....almost 3500 kills and just 157 losses...very, very impressive work and thank you!

(in reply to MishaTX)

Post #: 24

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 1/3/2022 12:11:44 AM

Simon Edmonds

Posts: 132
Joined: 5/10/2018
Status: offline

Followed your air instructions for turn 1. Killed just over 4100 air units on the latest version. These instructions will be my start from now on. Thanks for your time and effort.

PS. I wonder if strategy gaming dojo would do an episode on this?

(in reply to actrade)

Post #: 25

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 1/4/2022 4:30:06 PM

CTKnudsen

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

Thanks Zov, this is great - While I wasn't able to hit 4000, I had a very decent opening.

One question - what do you use for doctrine settings after T1?

Thanks!

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)

Post #: 26

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 1/4/2022 5:59:01 PM

Teo41_ITA

Posts: 151
Joined: 9/2/2021
Status: offline

I could also do an episode on my channel about this!

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)

Post #: 27

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 1/6/2022 4:30:14 PM

alty59

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/8/2016
From: France
Status: offline

Following patch 1.02.13 Husi airbase, the pivot of many rumanian air command raids, no longer exists on the map (not built before 1943) do you plan to adjust your directives?

Anyway great job zovs many many thanks.

< Message edited by alty59 -- 1/6/2022 4:31:07 PM >

(in reply to Teo41_ITA)

Post #: 28

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 1/6/2022 5:27:28 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Yes I�ll have to revisit my document and update.

From T2 onwards it�s situational dependent. Mostly I set GS and create Recon missions and will run Naval Patrols when needed. If I do NP I generally like to do 1) Recon 2) Air Superiority 3) Naval Patrol.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to alty59)

Post #: 29

RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack ... - 1/7/2022 4:15:30 PM

OberGeneral

Posts: 205
Joined: 10/9/2018
From: Canada
Status: offline

I am running v 1.02.13 and changed Husi airport staging airport to Tecuci.

This is my best result so far.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by OberGeneral -- 1/7/2022 4:20:40 PM >

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 30

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941

Page: [1]