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End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 6:24:36 PM   
LoneRunner

 

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January 1941 UK and it’s colonies declared war on Japan and invaded every Pacific island scheduled to receive Japanese reinforcements. Yes, every island, plus several others containing NM objectives. A brilliant move. I commend my opponent and friend for devising such an ingenious plan. Dang, I’m struggling to survive another ELO game, haha.

Most Japanese forces were heavily involved in China. Small garrisons held Tokyo, Osaka, and Seoul. The rest of Japan’s island empire lay unprotected at this point in the war, so the UK invasions went unopposed. As a result of the losses of NM locations, Japanese morale immediately fell below 70%.

In addition UK moved almost their entire fleet into the Pacific. The Japanese have better carriers and battleships but they were outnumbered 2 to 1. When the fleets met, it was quality against quantity. And we know how that worked for the Germans on the Russian front. UK incurred heavier losses, three carriers and a lot of ships. However Japan lost two carriers and most of her precious battleships. With the USA looming over the horizon and limited production, Japan can’t sustain such losses.

Is this a gamebreaker? Yes, possibly. I don’t see how Japan can defend against such an attack. They certainly don’t have the troops to garrison every island. UK can time their declaration of war on Japan such that UK long-range landing craft can sail past defending Japanese ships with impunity, so stationing the Japanese fleet throughout the Pacific is pointless.

The game assigns minimal penalties on the Allies for attacking Japan early. USA mobilization shifted only 9% due to UK’s DoW on Japan. And USA registered no change in mobilization in response to subsequent DoWs by India, Malaya, and Australia. Also, USA ignored the UK DoW on Indochina. And Japanese home guard didn’t even trigger when UK invaded Okinawa, Iwo Jima, and Formosa.

Despite Japan's struggles I continued the ELO game. Never give up, right? Haha.

Anyway, its December 41 and a crippled Japan continues the war. UK packed Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and Formosa with fighters and maritime bombers so any Axis ship entering southern Japan gets bombed. Open ports on the Chinese and Korean coastline are invaded. As a result precious Japanese units garrison the entire coast.

Although Japan is not at war with USSR, UK units have landed at Vladivostok and invaded Korea, and landed at Aleksandrovsk and captured Shikuka. Allied units have also captured Hanoi and are attacking Nanning.

Japanese morale is currently at 48% due to the losses of islands and Chinese/Korean ports. The war in China progresses, but a lot slower than normal.

What should be done? Well, I don’t blame my opponent. He’s just playing the game by the rules provided. If WaW allows UK to attack Japan without any real penalties, then that’s how the designers expect the game to be played. And I guess we players have to adjust accordingly.

I think a lot harsher penalties should be assessed on Allied declarations of war. Also Allied ship and unit movement should be restricted in neutral areas. Japan is restricted from entering the Eastern Pacific and Atlantic but Allied ships can sail just about anywhere in the Pacific without penalty. In my current game, USA ships are sailing near Singapore, despite the USA being neutral.


< Message edited by LoneRunner -- 2/21/2022 6:49:47 PM >
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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 7:11:51 PM   
calcwerc

 

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well played by uk, but definately cheese.
should be adressed.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 8:16:24 PM   
Bavre


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Pure speculation, but how about sailing the Italian navy to Japan?

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 9:16:10 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Glad to hear about new strategies 3 years after game's launch. Even if it is cheese, it's still a good one.
quote:

Pure speculation, but how about sailing the Italian navy to Japan?

Well, apart from them being behind in upgrades, Allies just can box them in Mediterrenean. What is more, they would not be able to resupply in JAP ports, because Japan is noncooperative major (please correct me if I am mistaken).

@LoneRunner What about the other side of the story, Eastern Front? If UK Navy goes to Pacific, USSR convoys are basically dead I presume? And if UK goes all-in after Japan, then Germany is basically left alone - that's usually a death sentence for USSR. Maybe an old axiom of USSR going down = loss for allies is no more?
Apart from this, where did UK get $ to do all of this? I mean, they have to buy naval and AA upgrades, research amphibious transports and pay for them several times, there are plenty of islands to take. That's a lot of MPP's.

Just thinking about quick fix, maybe make those units spawning in islands appear in Japan homeislands at once, if JAP gets DOW'ed? This would give JAP some units to defend at once.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 9:26:44 PM   
ThunderLizard11

 

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Who was opponent? And what was left undefended while UK sent all units to Asia?

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 10:33:56 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

Just thinking about quick fix, maybe make those units spawning in islands appear in Japan homeislands at once, if JAP gets DOW'ed? This would give JAP some units to defend at once.

This situation arose with SC-WW1 last year concerning Russia and its scheduled early turn(s)deployments in and around Poland and Brest. If Central Powers units reached these mobilization areas..No Russian units would come on board. Also a DEC for the Russia {Entente] player concerning a choice between placing some Mt Infantry at Brest or down in the Caucasus would fire. All this was possible when combined with the Surrender of Montenegro (and Luxemburg at times) to get the global boost for the CP. This combo effectively doomed the match from the get go.
We conducted tests, including two I did with Bavre, and are posted in the WarRoom in the SC-WW1 forum.
Here a link to one of the two there: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4972417

Bill and Hubert saw this and rectified this situation quite well, by allowing the Russian scheduled units to appear deeper in Russia, and the DEC to fire regardless if Brest was taken. It was my argument at the time that these Russian units were mobilizing deeper in mother Russia anyway, and by abstraction were being railroaded to their mobilization zones in Poland.

So the problem was solved. I would argue the same case should apply with this situation also, and that the scheduled Japanese units that should start appearing on the Pacific Islands if occupied before should deploy on the Home Islands. Anyway, that's where they were raised, not Saipan or Pelielu.

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/21/2022 10:34:56 PM >


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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/21/2022 10:47:44 PM   
LoneRunner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

@LoneRunner What about the other side of the story, Eastern Front? If UK Navy goes to Pacific, USSR convoys are basically dead I presume? And if UK goes all-in after Japan, then Germany is basically left alone - that's usually a death sentence for USSR. Maybe an old axiom of USSR going down = loss for allies is no more?
Apart from this, where did UK get $ to do all of this? I mean, they have to buy naval and AA upgrades, research amphibious transports and pay for them several times, there are plenty of islands to take. That's a lot of MPP's.

Just thinking about quick fix, maybe make those units spawning in islands appear in Japan homeislands at once, if JAP gets DOW'ed? This would give JAP some units to defend at once.


Hah, as always Marcinos, you are spot on. Yes, as I was watching invasion after invasion on the turn replay, I was thinking, where is he getting all those MPPs? Loading units on transports is not cheap. And loading allied units on transports is even more expensive. My guess is that UK research has suffered. And probably not much available for a serious second front in Europe. However, my opponent is expert level. He'll probably come up with something to surprise me.

Yes, North Sea convoys are pretty well cut off. However, Japan can not spare a ship for Vladivostok. So Russia's getting 80 MPPs a turn there.

I'm hoping USSR surrenders before Japan falls. Might be close. Perhaps we should do an AAR. Should be an interesting game.

I like your idea for a fix. In addition, USA mobilization should take a bigger hit.

And, you are right. Italian units can't resupply in Japanese ports. I've tried it.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 12:03:50 AM   
Elessar2


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Sounds like a perfect time for a Sea Lion to me, if I am watching all of this as Germany, since they haven't committed to Barbarossa yet. Egypt-->Iraq-->Caucasus should be an easy axis of advance too.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 12:39:22 AM   
LoneRunner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Sounds like a perfect time for a Sea Lion to me, if I am watching all of this as Germany, since they haven't committed to Barbarossa yet. Egypt-->Iraq-->Caucasus should be an easy axis of advance too.


Yes, I seriously considered Sealion. But I was pretty well committed to Barbarossa. All units on the eastern front. Yugoslavia surrendered in January. Declared war on USSR in March despite terrible weather. With Russia there is no halfway.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 12:48:08 AM   
LoneRunner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

So the problem was solved. I would argue the same case should apply with this situation also, and that the scheduled Japanese units that should start appearing on the Pacific Islands if occupied before should deploy on the Home Islands. Anyway, that's where they were raised, not Saipan or Pelielu.


Yes, definitely. Just about all my special forces are sitting in limbo. Illogical that I can't use them because their deployment location is occupied.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 5:34:20 AM   
Chernobyl

 

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I'm struggling to come up with a solution to this. Certainly you don't want to give Japan their units early because they'll just sail to China.

There isn't a one step solution to this because you can't prevent UK from declaring war in the editor, and there are far too many vulnerable invasion spots for Japan to defend.

Off the top of my head if UK dows Japan:
-Massive NM swings for UK and Japan
-Large mobilization hit for USA

-Probably should set those Japanese land units to spawn anywhere, but that might put more pressure on China in 1941 if it's not dead already (cheaper for Japan to get them there). And then how will they get to their historical locations?
-Could give Japan more island garrisons, but that would simply accelerate how fast they fix their partisan problem (more early pressure on China)

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 5:55:13 AM   
Chernobyl

 

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Other possible penalties for UK being bad:

-Riots in India
-USSR mobilization hit? Not sure if this makes sense.
-USA NM hit due to confusion over why we fight (opposite effect of Pearl Harbor)
-Diplo swings for Spain, Turkey, Netherlands, DEI, South America, others? (neutrals no longer trust Allies)

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 6:19:56 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Sounds like a perfect time for a Sea Lion to me, if I am watching all of this as Germany, since they haven't committed to Barbarossa yet. Egypt-->Iraq-->Caucasus should be an easy axis of advance too.


You are probably right, but only if Axis player knows what is coming. I suppose LR was surprised and probably didn't see Allied flet beforehand. What is more, BEF could stay at UK, all these islands are probably taken with all those commonwealth corps spread around the world. In this case, UK would probably hold for a while, especially in bad weather and Barbarossa goes poof (not mentioning US and USSR boost).
But - if LR knew what's on table around 06.1940, invasion would be tempting, especailly if CV's were already far away.

quote:


-Probably should set those Japanese land units to spawn anywhere, but that might put more pressure on China in 1941 if it's not dead already (cheaper for Japan to get them there). And then how will they get to their historical locations?


I believe most Allied player would happily trade China away in exchange for totally crippling Japan's ability to go on killing spree. Japan can be so irritating - attack on USSR, India or even US itself can throw a wrench in Allies plans, especially if Germany is a primary target.

@LoneRunner BTW, how is Russia going? I wonder if US will go for killing blow against Japan or try to slow down Germany somehow. Good luck.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 9:01:52 AM   
calcwerc

 

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I agree with OCB that Japanese marines should spawn elsewhere if UK take these isles.
I think thats the cheesy aspect of this: to take locations because units then wont spawn. (The same goes for the Japanese move on american samoa to prevent tank from spawning. I think that tank should then spawn at Hawaii or California)

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 12:03:22 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Great ideas here, and this is something that I've been thinking of over the last little while too, and have already got solutions in mind that match up with quite a few of those posted here!

The intention will not be to make such an alternative strategy totally impossible, but to make it more balanced and realistic.

Hopefully then some who have been playing with a house rule to prevent this won't need to have such a house rule in future.

LoneRunner I wish you luck in your game, keep us posted!



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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 2:37:07 PM   
petedalby

 

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I'm currently suffering in the same way vs the same player. I think Elvis has just had the same too. I flagged my concerns to Bill in a PM as I didn't want every Allied player adopting a similar strategy.

It is January 1943 in my game. Japan is crippled. I've lost virtually all of my navy and air force. Allied losses have been high too. I think I've sunk 5 UK carriers. Japan's army is now being dismembered in China by all of the Allies.

Germany has Egypt, Palestine & Jordan and is fighting in Iraq. In Russia German forces are adjacent to Moscow & Stalingrad and would hope to take them when Spring comes.

Unfortunately I think Japan will go down first.

I agree with most of the proposed solutions. Heavy penalties on US mobilisation for UK aggression. Blocked units should be able to spawn at the Home Islands.

But full credit to my opponent for a great strategy. Whatever the outcome it is a cracking game. Can't believe the Allied losses incurred.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 4:50:38 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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This subject has already been discussed. Lets rehash. Lets make in simple. Look at history. No Pearl Harbor = United States would not have put boots on the ground in Europe, nor Asia. The impact of December 7th, 1941, can't be emphasized enough. The American people had overwhelming attitude of remaining neutral over the affairs in Europe. Right after Poland surrendered, FDR said "USA is neutral". Same with the crushing of Low Countries and even the surrender of France. Same with Barby. USA was clearly neutral and only willing to "help". That help was in form of supplies, not troops, nor navies.

If the Japs never sneak attack on December 7th. USA ain't getting in the fight. FDR may have conducted another False Flag event, such as various ships being sunk in the Atlantic or wherever, but that would have not triggered the fervor of the American people. The United States was primarily a WASP nation at the time. White Angelo Saxon Protestant. No motivation to go back to Europe to fight Germans/Italians wars. The attack by the Rising Sun is a new beast. It's the welcoming of the Far East. The Yanks got triggered by race, religion, cultural, etc.

Many players have DOW on Japan with UK in the past. Try to snag Carriers. Another strategy is to intercept at PH, but that's not a game changer. But the landing of spawning points is deadly. Rising Sun cannot receive these units unless they recapture spawn points. The Juntas should be able to guard their homeland (just don't leave key port empty. Choose the 4 Garrisons instead of Army. Forget when that script hits.


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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 5:43:08 PM   
Chernobyl

 

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1. Germany should not be burdened with thinking about Japanese defense from the UK in 1940/1941. By way of stationing forces threatening UK and researching AmphibWarfare. Germany should be free to pursue multiple strategies and not be tied to defending Truk or Tokyo by keeping tanks in France and altering research priorities. If UK feels safe then by all means send more troops to Egypt or harrass Italy or something. But not Japan.
2. Japan should not be economically burdened early game by this possibility. Having to pay for fleet upgrades in 1940 just in case is a substantial blow to research etc.
3. Blocking those unit spawns is cheese

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 5:58:17 PM   
LoneRunner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby

I agree with most of the proposed solutions. Heavy penalties on US mobilisation for UK aggression. Blocked units should be able to spawn at the Home Islands.

But full credit to my opponent for a great strategy. Whatever the outcome it is a cracking game. Can't believe the Allied losses incurred.


Well said Pete. I hope people don't get down on our opponent. He's just playing by the rules. And actually I love to see the what-ifs in this game. Yes, what if UK attacked Japan first? Cool idea. What if the USA attacked Japan first? Perhaps USA morale would crash by 50%! Let's not shut down what-ifs. Instead, allow a wide variety of what-ifs and provide proper consequences.

Just to summarize the solutions suggested and add some new ones:
o Heavy penalty on USA mobilization for UK DoW on Japan (9% is not adequate, more like 20 - 30%)
o Reduction of UK morale for DoW on Japan. Uk was already fighting for her life against Germany. The public would have been stunned by declaring war on Japan.
o Blocked units should spawn in Japan (calcwerc is right, blocked units in general should spawn elsewhere)
o Diplomacy swings on neutrals for any Allied DoW (great idea Chernobyl)
o USA mobilization penalty for Allied ships sailing through Japanese territory
o Restrictions on long-range transport invasions. No one should be able to launch invasions from 30-40 hexes away. Especially on a declaration of war. Imagine a few UK transports sailing into Tokyo harbor. You're all under arrest, haha. Besides large long range invasions were just was not feasible in WW2 until late in the war. Perhaps require amphib level 4.
o UK units should not be able to launch attacks on Japan from USSR unless USSR is at war with Japan.
o Almost forgot this one: The Japanese home guard should be activated when Okinawa or Iwo Jima is invaded.

< Message edited by LoneRunner -- 2/23/2022 12:02:19 AM >

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 6:58:00 PM   
DavidDailey

 

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Historicism is taking a heavy blow. The U.S. and U.K. were and are democracies that don't launch wars against other people. In this game because the players are "seeing the future" in the form of Japanese aggression they launch preemptive blows. If the democracies in the late 1930's had possessed a crystal ball and knew what the Nazis and Japanese were going to do they might indeed have launched preemptive attacks. But nobody knows the future. When players can do things to gain a competitive advantage because they know what is coming then we end up with a patch every other week to redress outrageous scenarios like the one described above. What ifs are fascinating but if they are not played withing a reasonable historical context then the game should be retitled "Fantasy General".

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 7:20:58 PM   
Bavre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

...What ifs are fascinating but if they are not played withing a reasonable historical context then the game should be retitled "Fantasy General".

I think that IP is already taken (and recently even had a reboot).
And what ifs are imho not per se bad, they can just lead to unforeseeable and therefore exploity situations. Any Brit suggesting a large scale invasion against Japan in 40 would probably have been shiped off to the loony bin and the suggested large drop in GB NM as a consequence is in my eyes a great idea to reflect that. Additional to the diplo fallout of course.

< Message edited by Bavre -- 2/23/2022 12:40:19 AM >

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 7:25:37 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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I'd just let it go, for now. I like the action :)

The whole Pacific needs more action, better Island fighting, more combat, land supply, air battles, name it.

95% of games, the Pacific doesn't even matter, now it does.





< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 2/22/2022 7:30:09 PM >

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 9:57:20 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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I don't have an issue with the UK 'Pacific Gambit' per say..though it is a bit of a stretch. It's the erasure of Japanese units that are on the OOB and in the production que. Poof they go..at least in the locations that they are supposed to arrive at.

I guess you can argue that maybe the Japanese could have of garrisoned these island locations before hand, which is fine. But to place the scheduled units there means removal of the mentioned units by transport (on the islands at least), which may not be possible for a variety of reasons.

The way things stand with this UK Pacific Gambit play at the moment doesn't seem like a strategy play really. More like an exploit. I wouldn't want to see the UK (Allied) player restricted in try this strategy as long as the Japanese (Axis) player doesn't lose his units to a game mechanic ploy.

Like I posted before..a similar deal was fixed with SC-WW1 by Bill and Hubert.
Its was amusing though, that while we waited for the fix, how so many people started pulling the Montenegro Gambit-Wreck Russia exploit on unsuspecting players, mostly inexperienced. There were folks that didn't want to do MP matches after that.

There's my 3 cents for what its worth.




< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/22/2022 10:07:19 PM >


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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/22/2022 11:19:04 PM   
Elessar2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

o Restrictions on long-range transport invasions. No one should be able to launch invasions from 30-40 hexes away. Especially on a declaration of war. Imagine a few UK transports sailing into Tokyo harbor. You're all under arrest, haha. Besides large long range invasions were just was not feasible in WW2 until late in the war. Perhaps require amphib level 4.
o UK units should not be able to launch attacks on Japan from USSR unless USSR is at war with Japan.


Scripts can "detect" amphibious units very easily and automatically-a Mobilization one if too many UK amphibs try sneaking past Singapore (~40 hexes from Tokyo) would be one obvious remedy.

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RE: End of the Japanese Empire? - 2/23/2022 9:42:56 AM   
Laurenz

 

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Abusable game mechanics are a problem. Ahistorical strategies are not.

Nobody complains about Germany not investing anything into their war with the UK, not attacking the Island, nor the Colonies in Africa. Blind racism and a drive to take revenge for the humiliations of 1918 would have made that completely unfeasible in reality. Strategically, it is not absurd to think that in such a case the Empire would turn around and fight the other power threatening them in the East.

I agree that there should be penalties on US mobilization (although in reality they might see a chance to get rid of their upstart rival). However, I think there needs to be some form of counter play to a super focused German strategy in addition to an early D-Day.

TLDR: Strict historicism is a bad basis for game design, as games need meaningful choices to be fun. Exploits should be fixed.

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